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how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

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n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Here's my "Never gonna do that again" experience for the year.

Discovered nearly fatally a aerodynamic combo my plane will not 

tolerate.



Steep descent to get through a hole in the clouds, pulled 22 degrees 

flaperon's to see how they'd work as a drag producer (aka dive brakes)

never expected an instant accelerated stall, pushing me over vertical.

Everything from the luggage sack plastered on the ceiling. Including

me if not for seat belts. Imagine that you're really nose down to begin, 

and then the nose rips out from under you. There was no warning, just

instant drop! Almost like a forward tumble.



Miracle I had presence of mind to push not pull on the stick, nearly pulled

a muscle grabbing for the flaperon handle at near upside down. Recovery

came right away after getting the flaperons back to 11 degrees. Then

it was just a matter of pulling out of a vertical dive like a spin recovery.



Had to land at the nearest airport to literally clean up the cockpit.

Everything that was stowed was no longer in place, but up on the floor 

in the front or on the glareshield.   



Next mod to N85AE is a mechanical block to remove 22 degrees from

being used (ever).



First time in 7 years flying that plane that I ever had that happen.



Jeff Hays

Series 5, IO240B

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Never flown a mod 5 -- 

I will tell you that my mod 4 I have 33 degree down on the flapperons and are a real attribute if you know how to use them.  



Take off or landing only 1/2 flaps except when you trying to bust loose from glassy water or trying to get out of soft sand or mud.

Full power and part flaps only until you ready to fly but plane just ain;t there yet -- Rip those  full flapperons all the way to 33  degrees and it will help you bust loose -  keep nosedown and bleed off  to 1/2 flaps as soon as you can.



Kitfox flapperons are not like a cessna with 40 degrees for drag - they limit your roll control.



I test flew a  mod 2 a while back and took off in reflex --scary -- my fault  it was marked take off  at the half flap point in mine..... that was zero flapperons. I had it shoved full forward and once o broke the ground I noticed to roll control and could not combat the crosswind...  within a second I knew what happened and pull them back to my  half way point which was Zero  on this one -- it happens.

_________________
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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

On 9/25/2011 5:19 PM, n85ae wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Had to land at the nearest airport to literally clean up the cockpit.

 Everything that was stowed was no longer in place, but up on the floor

 in the front or on the glareshield.



 Next mod to N85AE is a mechanical block to remove 22 degrees from

 being used (ever).



 First time in 7 years flying that plane that I ever had that happen.

    

YEEHAW! Sounds exciting. Can't say I've ever pulled sustained negative 
	


on the IV. Glad you survived to tell the tale. Interestingly my dad had 

that happen flying an AD-1 as a lad, but it was caused by the dive 

brakes: he pulled them on during a bombing run and the plane shifted 

into a stable -g pitch-down which he was just barely able to arrest with 

the elevator until he could get the brakes off.



Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

Now a glider pilot, too.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

I use 11 degrees a lot for landing, the plane handles great, plus I get a better

over the nose view on final and still have no problems flaring for landing even

with the heavy motor. 22 degrees has always felt really horrible, as it takes

full trim and still some back pressure. Not to mention the roll control is really

odd feeling.



Recently I added the spring assist system, and I suspect this led me into a

trap that all that pressure you normally hold is telling you something. With

the spring assist, you don't feel like your holding so much. Pop in 22 degrees

going a bit fast, and probably at a higher than normal AOA and voila instant

stall.  Not what I expected at the moment, or attitude I was at. Nose down 

in a descent, a sudden stall is not in the program normally.



The other possibility is I got a tail stall which would have snapped the nose down as well. But I'm really not sure.



Jeff

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I use 11 degrees a lot for landing...22 degrees has always felt 

really horrible, as it take full trim and still some back pressure. 

Not to mention the roll control is really odd feeling.


	


I routinely used full flaps (22 degrees) on my Model IV-1200 

Speedster with no ill-effects.  While there is less roll authority 

with them down that far, it's no less than an ordinary airplane 

probably has on a good day.  I think Kitfox/Avid drivers become quite 

spoiled to the responsiveness these airplanes deliver.



Mike G.

Phoenix, AZ

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Thank you for sharing your story, Jeff. My Kitfox 3, that I didn't build myself, has a stopper at 10 degrees flaps. I have read many scary stories of too much flaps on the flaperons and this is why I never use them, if it isn't as an "elevator trim" with a very few degrees, to counter the nose-up tendency at level flight in smooth air.



To go through a hole in the cloud, I would prefer the side-slip method, which I use intensively on final approach. I just love it.



Some years ago, I participated to a navigation contest in the Norwegian mountains and, in order to land at the correct time, I had to descend from the top of the mountains, to 1,000 ft AGL in the valley, rather quickly. I came down along the mountain side by left and right side-slips what were just like ... skiing down a hill! It was so much fun and it felt so ... natural to slip one side, then the other!



If I had to go through a hole in the cloud cover (which I am not really allowed to because the European ultralight rule forbids us to fly "on top") I would do it ... the skiing way! 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Norway

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Dorsal

Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 34
Location: MA

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:17 am Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Just curious, what was your IAS at the time you pulled the flaps?

_________________
Dorsal ~~^~~
Series 7 Flying
912S Warp Drive

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Higher than normal, probably 80+ mph. Initially pitched down like

normal when pulling flaperons, this I compensated with elevator and

trim but then the elevator just went away,  and the nose pitched down

hard. I thought I stalled the wing. BUT  now after thinking about it over

night, I'm inclined to think I stalled  the tail. 



My plane has an IO-240B and a variable incidence tail. So I had a 

lot of trim rolled in, and I'm nose heavy to begin with. I'm pretty sure 

the tail either got blanked out by airflow, or simply stopped flying.

Which ever it was the stick stopped working until I pushed, and got 

out the flaperons.  



By the time I got the plane under control I'd dropped at least a thousand

feet or so, had I not been secured in by my belt it would have been all

over. I actually had a lot of shoulder pain immediately after from trying 

to grab the flaperon handle.  But I was so happy to have control of the

plane again I remember thinking I didn't care if the arm fell off.  Then I

just sat there in a mass of debris (maps, etc) thinking I need to do a 

better job stowing my stuff in the future. 

 	  Dorsal wrote: 	
		  Just curious, what was your IAS at the time you pulled the flaps?

SkySteve

Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 94
Location: Huntsville, UT

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Scary stuff.  I have changed the position of my Johnson Bar flaperon handle so I can get to it in a hurry and not have to look down.  This helps a lot for those times when you need the flaperons in a hurry or when looking down in the cabin is not a good idea.  Notice I also have the stop which limits how many degrees of flaperon you can get.

_________________
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel

av8rps

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Central Wisconsin

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

After flying a multitude of Kitfoxes and Avids for over 25 years, and doing just about anything you can imagine with one, I agree that this situation was likely caused by a tail stall and not the flaperons.



Unlike many that think our flaperons are useless, I use flaperons for every takeoff and landing (I've modified my flaps so I get nearly 30 degrees of throw).  And yet, I've never experienced anything that I would say is unusual or scary.  



Here's just one example of the extent I've tested my flaperons;  I recently blew out (!) both back quarter windows on my Kitfox amphib while practicing SEVERE slips both directions in an effort to figure out how to land my speedy little amphib shorter.  (I began the testing at high altitude to be safe.  I didn't want to learn at low altitude that my severe fuselage angle combined with a slow airspeed, a huge sink rate, and totally uncoordinated flight would result in something like a snap roll).  But even in that situation, the Kitfox was solid and stable.  



So I think you hit the nail on the head when talking about the tail stall.  Thank you for sharing that information.  It is very good to know.  If it happened to you, it can happen to others.

_________________
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer Sn#1 and Sn#26
Highlander 912s taildragger
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: how to kill yourself with the flaperon handle

Paul ,well said !!   

Flapperons on my mod 4 ROCK - and I gotta say anyone that tells you others just does not know how to utilize them to the max. 



I will  that say on mod 1 ,2  flapperons really suck compared to my mod 4.  Not totally useless but close. 

Dave 



Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth 

http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer 

Hundreds of Kitfox Movies 

Most viewed Kitfox on youtube 

Most popular on youtube 

Highest rated on youtube

 	  av8rps wrote: 	
		  After flying a multitude of Kitfoxes and Avids for over 25 years, and doing just about anything you can imagine with one, I agree that this situation was likely caused by a tail stall and not the flaperons.



Unlike many that think our flaperons are useless, I use flaperons for every takeoff and landing (I've modified my flaps so I get nearly 30 degrees of throw).  And yet, I've never experienced anything that I would say is unusual or scary.  



Here's just one example of the extent I've tested my flaperons;  I recently blew out (!) both back quarter windows on my Kitfox amphib while practicing SEVERE slips both directions in an effort to figure out how to land my speedy little amphib shorter.  (I began the testing at high altitude to be safe.  I didn't want to learn at low altitude that my severe fuselage angle combined with a slow airspeed, a huge sink rate, and totally uncoordinated flight would result in something like a snap roll).  But even in that situation, the Kitfox was solid and stable.  



So I think you hit the nail on the head when talking about the tail stall.  Thank you for sharing that information.  It is very good to know.  If it happened to you, it can happen to others.

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