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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:57 am Post subject: EFI

Has anyone implemented multi-point electronic fuel injection on any of our engines? If so, what injectors, throttle body, and what ECU were used?



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

 Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: EFI

Hi Brian this was posted last year in another section on the Matronics, should answer your question.

  

 I have recently received some requests for information regarding our M14P modifications. We have been in development of our M14P overhaul process for the last several years. It has been quite an interesting project, and we have been delivering engines for the last 2 years. Our concept was to develop a very high standard of overhaul, such as we offer for horizontally opposed engines. We currently offer complete overhaul capability and prop strike inspections. To my knowledge, we have the only test cell in North America that can operate the engine to full power and measure its power output and fuel consumption. Measured thrust tests with our M14-P engines indicate that a -P engine, modified as described below, produces more thrust that the -PF model and does it on less fuel. The highest time modified M14-P engine we have in service  has 400 hours and is used in airshows. 



The major modifications to the engine include the following: 



  Newly designed, three ring, forged piston available in both standard and slightly higher compression. We have had this piston/ring package for two years, and Motorstarâ€™s ring package appears remarkably similar. The alloy used in our forging has a lower thermal coefficient of expansion and therefore can be operated at reduced clearances which increases piston ring service life, reduces blow by and oil consumption. Customers have reported a reduction in oil consumption from over a quart/hour down to a quart in 8-10 hours, with the oil staying clean through the whole oil change interval. We are not currently offering high compression options for PF owners, because we want to be able to obtain test data in our newly constructed test cell.  



  Single port fuel injection through Airflow Performance. We have dialed this system in and are getting good results with it. There are some airframe mods which are the responsibility of the owner/operator but they are easily accomplished, and we can provide some technical support.  



  A special micro-finish of the nose case gears to aide in keeping oil temps down, especially important as we start to raise compression in the engine. This process is extremely effective and has been taken from NASCAR, as those folks have tremendous gearbox oil temperature issues.  



We have also developed repair procedures to return impossible to get parts to serviceable status. These include master rod bearings, nose case sleeve, link rod pins, and a nickel-sil reconditioning of cylinder barrels which are worn to maximum limits. The nickel-sil barrels are currently being tested. Additionally, there are a number of parts which we are seeking to manufacture which are difficult/impossible to obtain via standard resources. 



One of the exciting projects on the horizon is electronic ignition. We currently have three prototypes built and are preparing for testing in our test cell. We had hoped that the system would be available by late fall, but it appears that we are probably one year away from delivery. I do not have any anticipated costs for the new system at this time. 



If you would like any additional information regarding this program, please feel free to direct questions to Monty  (monty(at)bpaengines.com (monty(at)bpaengines.com ([email]monty(at)bpaengines.com[/email]))), Allen (bpa(at)bpaengines.com (bpa(at)bpaengines.com ([email]bpa(at)bpaengines.com[/email]))) or myself (Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com (Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com ([email]Rhonda(at)bpaengines.com[/email]))). 



Rhonda Barrett-Bewley 

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc. 

Tulsa, OK 

(918) 835-1089 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              (918) 835-1089      end_of_the_skype_highlighting phone 

(918) 835-1754 fax 

 



   

From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 10:54 AM

Subject: EFI



 Has anyone implemented multi-point electronic fuel injection on any of our engines? If so, what injectors, throttle body, and what ECU were used? 



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



[quote]

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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: EFI

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:01 PM, bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com (bwade154(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Single port fuel injection through Airflow Performance. We have dialed this system in and are getting good results with it. There are some airframe mods which are the responsibility of the owner/operator but they are easily accomplished, and we can provide some technical support. 



	




Thanks. I am familiar with the AFP single-point injection. It is basically a varient of the pressure carb and not multipoint fuel injection. It is also mechanical rather than electronic.

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   One of the exciting projects on the horizon is electronic ignition. We currently have three prototypes built and are preparing for testing in our test cell. We had hoped that the system would be available by late fall, but it appears that we are probably one year away from delivery. I do not have any anticipated costs for the new system at this time. 

 

	




Seems that, if one is going the route of electronic ignition, it is a short step to go to EFI at the same time. Just thinking ...

Thanks for the info Wade!

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: EFI

Hi Brian as I was walking around Sun&Fun this year there was a vendor with an M14P that had a single port fuel injection on it when I talked with the vendor they said they were working on a computer controlled multi port fuel injection system with computer controlled electronic ignition she was showing a coil over plug unit and a fuel injector from a Toyota I believe. Took a picture of the engine but not the vendor I thought it was Barrett but couldn't find any info on their web  site and fired off an e-mail to find out, (attached). Anyway like you I think computer controlled fuel and spark is the way to go, I mean are ANY auto's being built with distributor and points today? I don't think so. 

From: BPA <BPA(at)BPAENGINES.COM>

To: bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 5:16 PM

Subject: RE: M14 P

       Hi Bill,

 We have made several improvements to the M14 series engines. Starting with the fuel injection we have a single port injection system. We are also working on a better fuel nozzle that will allow for optimum fuel atomization. This is a kind of slow process as it consists of not only the proper spray pattern but also the location or angle that the nozzles is pointed to get the right atomization.

 We have changed the piston and ring package from original design to drastically reduce oil consumption. We have pistons forged both in flat top standard compression and domed high compression. Our ring package consists of 2 compression rings and 1 oil control ring versus the Russian design of 3 compression, 1 oil control and one scraper ring. Oil consumption has been dropped to as much as 1 quart in 8-10 hours. Several engines have these new rings and pistons and to date have had no knowledge of high rate of oil consumption.

 We have a modification that we do to the reduction gears to aid in cooler oil temps by as much as 15 degrees F. 

 Other repairs are within the engine where previously no repair procedures were available such as the nose case seal that controls oil pressure to the prop governor. Repair of the exhaust port flange is now available as are reconditioned exhaust valves.

 We are to be testing the proto-type electronic ignition sometime late in November. This will be a full authoritive system with built in alternators to supply their own power.

 We also are in test with a prop manufacturer from Italy that has replacement blades for the Russian hub.

 It seems that there are so many repair processes that until now have never been developed or are not known about. Before the curtain fell, if the Ruskies had a problem with an engine, no matter how small or big, they would simply install another engine. 

 Allen

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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: EFI

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:39 AM, bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com (bwade154(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Brian as I was walking around Sun&Fun this year there was a vendor with an M14P that had a single port fuel injection on it when I talked with the vendor they said they were working on a computer controlled multi port fuel injection system with computer controlled electronic ignition she was showing a coil over plug unit and a fuel injector from a Toyota I believe. 

 



	




There are lots of different injectors made. The car manufacturers don't make them, they just OEM them from the likes of Bosch or Denso. Lots of different injectors out there. You spec the fuel rail pressure, max flow, injector volume, peak-and-hold (low impedance) or saturation (high impedance) coils (peak-and-hold works better on high RPM engines), block or sequential injection, and then pick the one you like best.

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Took a picture of the engine but not the vendor I thought it was Barrett but couldn't find any info on their web  site and fired off an e-mail to find out, (attached). Anyway like you I think computer controlled fuel and spark is the way to go, I mean are ANY auto's being built with distributor and points today? I don't think so. 

 



	




No, and now that I have had a chance to build and tune one all I can say is that I completely understand why the automotive industry has gone this way. I used to be really good at tuning Webber carbs but I can do things with EFI that I only dreamed about back then. I won't go back and mess with carburetors, distributors, points, or magnetos again if I can avoid it. Even in older cars it is dirt-simple to retrofit. Why not our airplanes?

 



And if you want to run lean-of-peak for cruise efficiency, you can trim the mixture for each cylinder independently and even have different trim at different MAPs and RPMs to account for differences in airflow volume at different flow velocities and induction tuning. The funny thing now is that the only thing that is really limiting us is the fact that avgas still has lead in it, making it difficult to keep from killing the wide-band O2 sensor needed to do good tuning.

 



By retrofitting a throttle position sensor to an existing pressure carb or Airflow Performance throttle body, and then adding a crank and cam position sensor (replace one magneto), you can then easily add electronic ignition and fuel injection while leaving the carb and 2nd magneto as backup. I see from the note you got back from BPA they are even thinking of separate alternators. I think that is a bit of overkill as one can achieve the requisite electrical system reliability without that (I suspect they are catering to FAA braindamage), but I would like to see at least two alternators in case one decided to eliminate the magnetos completely.

 



The funny thing is, people get so worried about the engine quitting if they lose the electrical system that they forget that our engines have lots of other single-points-of-failure. I would be willing to bet one could retrofit to EFI and electronic ignition and raise the MTBF even without a dedicated electrical system for the EFI and ignition.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

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