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Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

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SAILNROCK

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 15
Location: OAk Hills CA

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

Hi All

Has any one made flaps or done  flaperons 

like on the firefly? On the Firestar 11

And if so how did it come out and with what benefits?

Thanks Bob

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

Yes, years ago I duplicated the Firefly flaperon design into my Firestar II during construction.  My main purpose was to qualify for FAR part 103; just as the Firefly did with it’s shorter wings and not for a performance gain.  I had shortened my Firestar wings by eliminating the wing spar spliced in tube sections toward the wingtips. The graph in Appendix 2 of AC 103-7 “Determining Power Off Stall Speed” allowed a much better lift factor for a wing with flaps.   



I was really a newbie pilot at the time and did not notice much difference in performance with flaps or without.  Also, I have not flown my Firestar in a very long time, so I cannot give you much in the way of performance data.  I suspect that If I cleaned up the airplane with wing strut and gear leg fairings that a difference may have been more noticeable.  I did experiment once with the flaperons adjusted to reflex them up in flight and that seemed to improve cruise speeds somewhat but probably not worth the effort.

_________________
Jerry King

FIRESTARII

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 32

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

 Thanks for posting this as it is something I have put a great deal of thought into and an even greater lack of effort!  I once saw a FSII listed on Barnstormers with flaps and the guys claim to fame was  that it was the "slowest flying Kolb in the US".   I have no idea weather that is true or not.  Most GA airplanes I have flown show a significant improvement in lift with the flaps in the 10 to 20 degree range and any thing more than that just increases drag to allow for a steeper approach angle. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure thats exactly what the Cessna POH's say. For me personally, based on my pseudo dangerous grass strip I have at my farm I see a substantial benefit from both the increased lift as well as the steeper approach angle!  Simply because it's one way in and one way out with trees on the west end and power lines on the other. I have big plans of a full on restoration and re power of my FSII this winter and I will be incorporating flaps if I can do so safely and legally.  Can you say 65HP Hirth    I would be curious to hear from the Mark III guys and any other Kolber's with flaps if they feel the flaps are a worth while addition to an already great flying airplane.  Fly safe everybody!

_________________
Low and Slow FireStar II

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

 	  FIRESTARII wrote: 	
		   Thanks for posting this as it is something I have put a great deal of thought into and an even greater lack of effort!  I once saw a FSII listed on Barnstormers with flaps and the guys claim to fame was  that it was the "slowest flying Kolb in the US".   I have no idea weather that is true or not.  Most GA airplanes I have flown show a significant improvement in lift with the flaps in the 10 to 20 degree range and any thing more than that just increases drag to allow for a steeper approach angle. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure thats exactly what the Cessna POH's say. For me personally, based on my pseudo dangerous grass strip I have at my farm I see a substantial benefit from both the increased lift as well as the steeper approach angle!  Simply because it's one way in and one way out with trees on the west end and power lines on the other. I have big plans of a full on restoration and re power of my FSII this winter and I will be incorporating flaps if I can do so safely and legally.  Can you say 65HP Hirth    I would be curious to hear from the Mark III guys and any other Kolber's with flaps if they feel the flaps are a worth while addition to an already great flying airplane.  Fly safe everybody! 	




IMO, the flaps lower the stall speed as much as VG's and can be used in combination for best effect. However they also create a real change in lift distribution on the wing and cranking in the flaps requires either retrimming the airplane A LOT, or holding about twice as much stick back pressure. They do allow a much steeper approach angle and shorten the roll out, as the airplane will not float once you round out.



The best way to get out of the field better is obviously more power. However, I am not terribly impressed with the 65 Hirth, the few we have had around here have been pretty meh. One friend of mine has had to helicore the spark plug holes because the thing has vibrated the originals out. 



If you do go the 65HP route, Kolb says you ought to beef up the upper fuselage structure, it was not designed for the torque of a 65 hp engine. Here is how we did it on FSII N582EF: http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/582%20Mods.html



If we had it to do over again, a dual carb 503 would have been simpler. On the plus side, the skinny FSII cruises happily at 65 mph with the 582 loafing at 4800 rpm and burning under 3 gph. At which rpm it ought to go forever without needing an overhaul. And it does pop off the ground quick and go up at an insane climb angle.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

I would be curious to hear from the Mark III guys and any other Kolber's 

with flaps if they feel the flaps are a worth while addition to an already 

great flying airplane.  Fly safe everybody!



--------

Low and Slow FireStar II

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


	


I did some experimenting with the flaps,    my mkiii has 0, 20, 40 deg 

settings,    during take off 20 deg allowed a 100 ft shorter takeoff roll, 

0 and 40 were about the same roll for takeoff,     for landing 20 feels just 

right for me,    I have practiced 40 deg landings,,,   and it would seem 

that the steep approach would only be necessary in an emergency,    with 20 

deg and idle,  I can scare most ga pilots with my approach angle with only 

20 deg,     if I were to redesign the flap handle set up,  I think I would 

build a  multi position bracket, designed like  the elevator trim  in the 

mkiiic.  that way I could have more selections available,  I would add 10 

and 30 deg,   and maybe experiment with reflex,



boyd young mkiii



utah

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

 	  byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c wrote: 	
		  

I did some experimenting with the flaps,    my mkiii has 0, 20, 40 deg 

settings,    during take off 20 deg allowed a 100 ft shorter takeoff roll, 

0 and 40 were about the same roll for takeoff,     for landing 20 feels just 

right for me,    I have practiced 40 deg landings,,,   and it would seem 

that the steep approach would only be necessary in an emergency,    with 20 

deg and idle,  I can scare most ga pilots with my approach angle with only 

20 deg,     if I were to redesign the flap handle set up,  I think I would 

build a  multi position bracket, designed like  the elevator trim  in the 

mkiiic.  that way I could have more selections available,  I would add 10 

and 30 deg,   and maybe experiment with reflex,



boyd young mkiii



utah 	




I am very pleased with being able to put the flaps in multiple positions, even reflex. With the current setup,  max is about 35 degrees, and that seems plenty. Since my place is a very short strip with "go around" not being a good option at all, I always land with full flaps. Actually, I always land everywhere with full flaps, because that is what I am used to, and what you are used to doing is what you do best.



Pictures and details here: http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg3.htm

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

On Oct 15, 2011, at 1:26 AM, SAILNROCK wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi All

 Has any one made flaps or done  flaperons 

 like on the firefly? On the Firestar 11

 And if so how did it come out and with what benefits?

 Thanks Bob

 

 

 

 

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

Gene Z/Gang:



The last photo was shot at Homer's, wasn't it.



Looks good.



john h

mkIII

Checotah, Oklahoma and heading for hauck's holler, alabama.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

SAILNROCK

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 15
Location: OAk Hills CA

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

Thanks All  Nice reply's,

Eugene nice Pic's , Do you have any info? Did you build them? What was your improvement ? 

Has any one done flaparon like on the firefly on the firestar ll ?

Great time fly'n out here in the west.

Great and safe Fly'n to all.

Bob

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:22 am Post subject: Flaps or falparon on the Firestar 11

if they feel the flaps are a worth while addition >>



Hi Boyd,



I have one of the very few Xtra`s with flaperons actuated by a handle which 

sticks out from behind your right elbow.

The arrangement sucks although surprisingly you get used to it. it seems 

that the kit was made just about the changeover between the old and new 

companies and the new company killed the design and the flaperon system 

stone dead..



As far as the efficacy of the flap system I can find no fault. It does what 

it says on the tin, increases the drag, lowers the stalling speed and enable 

very steep approaches. You will probably need it one day. I usually use one 

notch of flap but sometimes the whole lot just for practice. Not often as 

with my system the top notch is very difficult to reach.



I have no problem with flaperons as such versus flaps. I had flaperons on my 

Challenger for ages but there they were part of the trimming system. 

Dropping full flaperon moved the trim right forward. That does not happen 

with the Kolb.



I certainly would not be without flaps or flaperon although I some times 

land without them just for fun. You just take up more room on the approach.



Cheers



Pat

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