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flysrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: Service report |
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It has been 360 hrs and four years since my prop was off the plane. I had to replace my alt belt and was shocked by the amount of sludge caked inside the crank. This the stuff that will corrode the crank from within.
I cycle my prop almost at every flight.
I had to build a scraper from a piece of alumn strap to scrape the sludge. No amount of thinner would clean it. The stuff was grey (i assume metal) and most of it was the consistency of proseal. Some was dry and came off powdery like.
I am thinking that two years and couple hundred hours might be the good time to clean the crank.
It would be nice to know other people experiences.
Do not archive.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPad
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2879
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: Service report |
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I've cleaned mine at least a couple times now. It is similar to proseal as you say. My guess is that there may be metal there but a lot of it could be blow-by lead from the fuel that collects in the oil too. I'd say it cakes on to about 1/4" thick or so.
Tim
On Oct 15, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: |
It has been 360 hrs and four years since my prop was off the plane. I had to replace my alt belt and was shocked by the amount of sludge caked inside the crank. This the stuff that will corrode the crank from within.
I cycle my prop almost at every flight.
I had to build a scraper from a piece of alumn strap to scrape the sludge. No amount of thinner would clean it. The stuff was grey (i assume metal) and most of it was the consistency of proseal. Some was dry and came off powdery like.
I am thinking that two years and couple hundred hours might be the good time to clean the crank.
It would be nice to know other people experiences.
Do not archive.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPad
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n801bh(at)netzero.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: Service report |
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I am betting it was 100% metal...... As in lead...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 514 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Service report |
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Please describe in detail the location that you are describing.
Is this behind the prop, outside the case of the engine?
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2879
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: Service report |
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Inside the crankshaft bore and prop hub that mates to that area.
Tim
On Oct 16, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: Service report |
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I think if you send in a small sample to an oil analysis lab they could tell you exactly what it is.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
Inside the crankshaft bore and prop hub that mates to that area.
Tim
On Oct 16, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>
>
> Please describe in detail the location that you are describing.
> Is this behind the prop, outside the case of the engine?
>
> --------
> See you OSH '12
> Q/B - flying 2 yrs.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=355203#355203
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: Service report |
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Did not think about that. It was bad stuff!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 16, 2011, at 12:57 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I think if you send in a small sample to an oil analysis lab they could tell you exactly what it is.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
[b]
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rv10pro(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: Service report |
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Kelly would be a better confirmation but if it was a heavy gray paste with slight green cast - its sounds like the lead that is in 100LL avgas. It is particularly severe in Rotax tight tolerance engines. Because of the relative weight it settles out. On Oct 15, 2011 6:58 PM, "n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)" <n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)> wrote:[quote]
I am betting it was 100% metal...... As in lead...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: Service report |
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No green cast. Just plane grey. Just as if you mixed proseal and did not put much harder in the mix.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 16, 2011, at 6:46 PM, John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com (rv10pro(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Kelly would be a better confirmation but if it was a heavy gray paste with slight green cast - its sounds like the lead that is in 100LL avgas. It is particularly severe in Rotax tight tolerance engines. Because of the relative weight it settles out. On Oct 15, 2011 6:58 PM, "n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)" <n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)> wrote:[quote]
I am betting it was 100% metal...... As in lead...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: Service report |
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The question would be what oil is being used. This was one of the
problems with the Mobil One aviation oil, being pure synthetic...it
couldn't hold lead salts and sludge in suspension. Mineral oil is much
better for holding contaminants in suspension. IIRC Aeroshell
multi-grade has the most synthetic with a bit less in Exxon. Phillips
XC is all mineral oil if you need a multi-grade, and I believe all
single weight oils are full mineral oil.
The richer a mixture run, the colder temps and condensation in the
oil, the more sludge, other things being equal. Frequent oil changes,
mineral AD oil is your friend for avoiding sludge.
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:46 PM, John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Kelly would be a better confirmation but if it was a heavy gray paste with
slight green cast - its sounds like the lead that is in 100LL avgas. It is
particularly severe in Rotax tight tolerance engines. Because of the
relative weight it settles out.
On Oct 15, 2011 6:58 PM, "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com> wrote:
>
> I am betting it was 100% metal...... As in lead...
>
> do not archive
> Ben Haas
> N801BH
> www.haaspowerair.com
>
> --------
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: Service report |
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I am using Phillips XC, muli grade and changing oil around 25 hrs.
Based on an EAA article comparing oil types, I will be switching to Aeroshell 100 for the next couple of 100 hrs to see if it makes a difference.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 16, 2011, at 11:09 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
The question would be what oil is being used. This was one of the
problems with the Mobil One aviation oil, being pure synthetic...it
couldn't hold lead salts and sludge in suspension. Mineral oil is much
better for holding contaminants in suspension. IIRC Aeroshell
multi-grade has the most synthetic with a bit less in Exxon. Phillips
XC is all mineral oil if you need a multi-grade, and I believe all
single weight oils are full mineral oil.
The richer a mixture run, the colder temps and condensation in the
oil, the more sludge, other things being equal. Frequent oil changes,
mineral AD oil is your friend for avoiding sludge.
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:46 PM, John Cox <rv10pro(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Kelly would be a better confirmation but if it was a heavy gray paste with
> slight green cast - its sounds like the lead that is in 100LL avgas. It is
> particularly severe in Rotax tight tolerance engines. Because of the
> relative weight it settles out.
>
> On Oct 15, 2011 6:58 PM, "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am betting it was 100% metal...... As in lead...
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> Ben Haas
>> N801BH
>> www.haaspowerair.com
>>
>> --------
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: Service report |
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With the disclaimer that I don't know nothing about nothing. A couple of engine builders I greatly respect both told me they would choose Aeroshell over Phillips 100% of the time. Of course changing oil every 25 hours is a way to really keep your oil performing as it is intended. I use to change every 25 hours but have transitioned closer to every 40 hours. Trying to strike a balance between 25 and 50 hour oil chances.
Robin
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rv10flyer(at)verizon.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: Service report |
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Funny thing is that Rob and I were both told by the engine builder to use
XC20-50 for the life of the engine. Seems there are a whole lot of different
opinions. In the end just keep away or understand the need for additives for
the oils that don't have corrosion protection.
Jan-Feb 2011 articles on oil, but if you have the time and want to hear
about it, here is the webinar on the topic.
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001
--
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: Service report |
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RAM engines does a lot of the big Continentals, that have more wear
issues on the cylinder choke, and they require use of Phillips X-C
during warranty period. Aviation Consumer suggests Phillips X-C with a
dose of CamGuard for Lycomings, because the cam doesn't get as much
oil being above the crank, where in Continentals it is below the
crank. I've been using the Exxon Elite, but will probably shift to
Phillips shortly.
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Pascal <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Funny thing is that Rob and I were both told by the engine builder to use
XC20-50 for the life of the engine. Seems there are a whole lot of different
opinions. In the end just keep away or understand the need for additives for
the oils that don't have corrosion protection.
Jan-Feb 2011 articles on oil, but if you have the time and want to hear
about it, here is the webinar on the topic.
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001
--
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth. Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: Service report |
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I use Aeroshell W100. Have all my 38 years of aircraft ownership. No
matter what oil you choose, the best thing you can do for your engine
longevity is to use it often, and try to get an hour or longer for a
'short flight'.
IMHO, if all you have is a screen, change the oil and clean the screen
every 25 hours and if a filter every 50.
As for the sludge in the crank bore, I find that odd. Almost all of my
flight hours are behind fixed pitch props, so my question is ..... maybe
running the prop through it's pitch range a couple of times prior to
shutdown would flush the bore with hot oil. I have a lot to learn about
constant speed operation!!!
Linn
On 10/17/2011 1:22 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
[quote]
RAM engines does a lot of the big Continentals, that have more wear
issues on the cylinder choke, and they require use of Phillips X-C
during warranty period. Aviation Consumer suggests Phillips X-C with a
dose of CamGuard for Lycomings, because the cam doesn't get as much
oil being above the crank, where in Continentals it is below the
crank. I've been using the Exxon Elite, but will probably shift to
Phillips shortly.
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Pascal<rv10flyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Funny thing is that Rob and I were both told by the engine builder to use
> XC20-50 for the life of the engine. Seems there are a whole lot of different
> opinions. In the end just keep away or understand the need for additives for
> the oils that don't have corrosion protection.
> Jan-Feb 2011 articles on oil, but if you have the time and want to hear
> about it, here is the webinar on the topic.
> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001
> --
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rv10flyer(at)verizon.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: Service report |
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W100 is a single grade which is fine for warmer temps
W80 is a single grade which is fine for cooler temps
XC-20-50 is multi-grade for cooler temps
Savvy in EAA suggested W100 PLUS for the summer and for warmer climates year
round
XC-20-50 for colder areas in the Fall-Spring times. Phillips is a Mineral so
perfect for run-in as well
--
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: Service report |
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I reported my experience not knowing if it was normal. It seems that Tim has had the same experience.
I will switch oil brand to see if another oil gives different results. Considering this a research opportunity.
I remember that there was an AD to inspect hollow crank for corrosion when using fixed pitched prop. I remember that I checked my rv6 crank and found no sludge after a few hundred hours.
Do not archive.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 17, 2011, at 2:06 PM, "Pascal" <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
W100 is a single grade which is fine for warmer temps
W80 is a single grade which is fine for cooler temps
XC-20-50 is multi-grade for cooler temps
Savvy in EAA suggested W100 PLUS for the summer and for warmer climates year round
XC-20-50 for colder areas in the Fall-Spring times. Phillips is a Mineral so perfect for run-in as well
--
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2879
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: Service report |
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Just to keep the waters as muddy as possible...
I've used both X/C 20-50 and am presently using Exxon Elite,
and basically I've found the same issue when using both of them.
I know as Kelly says, the mineral oil can suspend some things
better than the semi synthetics, so I'm sure that could have
some effect, but this isn't really all that much like
sludge...it's more like a deposit of lead. I could
save some next time I look, but, in order to see it you have
to pull your prop. With that in mind, my guess is that
many many people have this happening but most just don't know
it because they haven't had the opportunity to pull their
prop to replace a belt or anything like that.
It could be from colder weather operation, it could be
something maybe from operating at higher altitudes.
Who knows. I did take note of it, but didn't really
think of it as something completely unusual. It looks
a bit like grey modeling clay. It came out real easy
for me. It collects in the prop hub, just around that
o-ring area where it meets the crankshaft.
I just got off the phone with Hartzell to get their take
on it. I'm not worried about it but I find it strange
that when people worry about things, they don't call the
obvious sources first...and get the vendor answer. So
I did. He said that they've seen that before and it's
basically engine sludge. He didn't want to venture a
guess as to what it's comprised of, but personally I
really would think it could easily be lead byproducts
from piston blowby that would just naturally occur.
When I told him that I had 800 hours since early 2006,
he said "that's a lot of hours". So apparently to them,
I've got quite a bit of time on the prop. He said
TBO is 6 years or 2400 hours, so sometime next year
he says I should consider an overhaul...and noted that
since I'm an experimental that I'm not regulated to
do that, but could consider it. He said if I wanted
to, I could have the prop flushed. Personally I'm
really not that worried. The prop functions fine,
and the buildup seems to be limited to just that
one area. I don't remember super well (heck,it's
only been a month, how old am I getting?!) but I
think maybe that area of the hub is larger in
diameter and gives an area to collect easily. The
centrifugal force would tend to get gunk to collect
there. So I just clean it out, and go on my merry
way. Looking into the prop it doesn't look as
bad at all, nor into the crank...just that area.
So anyway, you should probably all be replacing belts
every 5 years and things of that nature anyway, so
just take the time to BUY A COUPLE EXTRA PROP O-RINGS
so you can change them EVERY time you pull the prop,
and then pull your prop at annual maybe ever 3-5 years
and give it an inspection. Maybe you'll see something
to clean out, maybe you won't.
On the topic of oil, the general take of Aviation Consumer
is that Exxon Elite has slightly better corrosion
protection but their recommendation for oil (partly due to
cost) is Philips X/C 20-50 to save money and for good
oil, and then a bottle of camguard for added corrosion
protection. I think this is reasonable advice. Most
planes in my area have run X/C 20-50 for years (remember
i'm in a colder area) and have had no issues. I myself
wanted the best corrosion protection I can have, because
I don't fly as often in the colder months, so I paid
the upcharge for Exxon Elite for oil and I STILL run
camguard in the engine. I've also spent a few hundred
hours with X/C 20-50. My old plane I used Aeroshell.
So I've used them all. If it weren't for the fact that
I already own 6 or 8 cases of elite, I'd consider
running Philips x/c 20-50 again, but I'd never
drop the camguard.
Tim
On 10/17/2011 2:20 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote:
Quote: |
I reported my experience not knowing if it was normal. It seems that Tim has had the same experience.
I will switch oil brand to see if another oil gives different results. Considering this a research opportunity.
I remember that there was an AD to inspect hollow crank for corrosion when using fixed pitched prop. I remember that I checked my rv6 crank and found no sludge after a few hundred hours.
Do not archive.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
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dmaib@me.com
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 455 Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Service report |
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I had my MT propeller off during the summer of 2010 when I was replacing my air conditioner compressor and alternator mounts. I had MT repaint the prop while it was off. MT went through the prop and replaced seals and checked everything while they had it. There was sludge in my crank (just under 300 hours at that time) and MT was unconcerned, as was the A&P next door to me that rebuilds quite a few engines. I cleaned it out and went on my way. My engine overhauler recommended W100 Plus for a warm climate airplane and that is what I have been using since shortly after finishing phase 1. Prior to that I was using W100 and adding camguard.
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RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL |
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1705 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: Service report |
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Keep in mind that NO one flying under Part 91 pays any attention to
Hartzell's TBO. Only Part 135 may have to comply, depending on
individual Ops specs. What is recommended is that you consider some
where between 6 and 10 years to have a prop shop tear down, inspect and
repair as necessary. Do NOT let them overhaul unless your blades are
significantly nicked or eroded, because an overhaul requires removal of
metal from the blades, whether they need it or not, to ensure the blade
meets the overhaul profile. The only consideration is how often your
prop is exposed to wet/icy/snowy weather, as opposed to being in a
hangar. The reason to tear down is to ensure no corrosion is happening
and get fresh seals and lube. Cost is less than 1/2 the price of overhaul.
On 10/17/2011 1:29 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
Quote: |
Just to keep the waters as muddy as possible...
I
When I told him that I had 800 hours since early 2006,
he said "that's a lot of hours". So apparently to them,
I've got quite a bit of time on the prop. He said
TBO is 6 years or 2400 hours, so sometime next year
he says I should consider an overhaul...and noted that
since I'm an experimental that I'm not regulated to
do that, but could consider it. He said if I wanted
to, I could have the prop flushed. Personally I'm
really not that worried. The prop functions fine,
and the buildup seems to be limited to just that
one area. I don't remember super well (heck,it's
only been a month, how old am I getting?!) but I
think maybe that area of the hub is larger in
diameter and gives an area to collect easily. The
centrifugal force would tend to get gunk to collect
there. So I just clean it out, and go on my merry
way. Looking into the prop it doesn't look as
bad at all, nor into the crank...just that area.
So anyway, you should probably all be replacing belts
every 5 years and things of that nature anyway, so
just take the time to BUY A COUPLE EXTRA PROP O-RINGS
so you can change them EVERY time you pull the prop,
and then pull your prop at annual maybe ever 3-5 years
and give it an inspection. Maybe you'll see something
to clean out, maybe you won't.
On the topic of oil, the general take of Aviation Consumer
is that Exxon Elite has slightly better corrosion
protection but their recommendation for oil (partly due to
cost) is Philips X/C 20-50 to save money and for good
oil, and then a bottle of camguard for added corrosion
protection. I think this is reasonable advice. Most
planes in my area have run X/C 20-50 for years (remember
i'm in a colder area) and have had no issues. I myself
wanted the best corrosion protection I can have, because
I don't fly as often in the colder months, so I paid
the upcharge for Exxon Elite for oil and I STILL run
camguard in the engine. I've also spent a few hundred
hours with X/C 20-50. My old plane I used Aeroshell.
So I've used them all. If it weren't for the fact that
I already own 6 or 8 cases of elite, I'd consider
running Philips x/c 20-50 again, but I'd never
drop the camguard.
Tim
On 10/17/2011 2:20 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote:
>
>
> I reported my experience not knowing if it was normal. It seems that
> Tim has had the same experience.
>
> I will switch oil brand to see if another oil gives different
> results. Considering this a research opportunity.
>
> I remember that there was an AD to inspect hollow crank for corrosion
> when using fixed pitched prop. I remember that I checked my rv6 crank
> and found no sludge after a few hundred hours.
>
> Do not archive.
>
> Rob Kermanj
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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