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Uncle

Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 10

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:56 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

With an all electric panel (Cozy MkIV), my Essential Bus will pull ~22 amps with everthing on it running full blast. In real world ops with backup components powered off (ie Nav/Comm #2, etc.), it would be down to ~15 amps at night. Question 1: Is the B&C S8009 40A relay suitable to use for the alternate E-bus feed. Question 2: For circuit protection on the 10ga power feed from the Batt Bus to the E-Bus (via relay), can I splice into 2 of the 15amp fuse slots so as not to exceed the recommended load per slot or can I use a 14ga wire as a fuse-link coming off the main connection terminal of the Batt Bus fuse block?



Thanks,

William

_________________
William E. Buckley

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

At 08:53 AM 11/2/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>



With an all electric panel (Cozy MkIV), my Essential Bus will pull 

~22 amps with everthing on it running full blast. In real world ops 

with backup components powered off (ie Nav/Comm #2, etc.), it would 

be down to ~15 amps at night. Question 1: Is the B&C S8009 40A relay 

suitable to use for the alternate E-bus feed. Question 2: For 

circuit protection on the 10ga power feed from the Batt Bus to the 

E-Bus (via relay), can I splice into 2 of the 15amp fuse slots so as 

not to exceed the recommended load per slot or can I use a 14ga wire 

as a fuse-link coming off the main connection terminal of the Batt 

Bus fuse block?


	


   Sounds like your endurance bus has strayed from

   the original design goals. What all do you have

   attached to this bus? What size battery are you

   flying? Did you configure based on any particular

   Z-figure?

   Bob . . .

Uncle

Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 10

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

Bob,

The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the wire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in progress.

Thanks,

William

--- On Wed, 11/2/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2011, 6:04 PM

 --> AeroElectric-List message

 posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 At 08:53 AM 11/2/2011, you wrote:

 > 

 William <hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > With an all electric panel (Cozy MkIV), my Essential

 Bus will pull ~22 amps with everthing on it running full

 blast. In real world ops with backup components powered off

 (ie Nav/Comm #2, etc.), it would be down to ~15 amps at

 night. Question 1: Is the B&C S8009 40A relay suitable

 to use for the alternate E-bus feed. Question 2: For circuit

 protection on the 10ga power feed from the Batt Bus to the

 E-Bus (via relay), can I splice into 2 of the 15amp fuse

 slots so as not to exceed the recommended load per slot or

 can I use a 14ga wire as a fuse-link coming off the main

 connection terminal of the Batt Bus fuse block?

   Sounds like your endurance bus has strayed from

   the original design goals. What all do you have

   attached to this bus? What size battery are you

   flying? Did you configure based on any particular

   Z-figure?

   Bob . . . 

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_________________
William E. Buckley

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with Z-30 and Z-32 

mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled E-bus). Two 16AH 

batteries. Not all the wire sizes and CB/fuse sizes have been filled 

in yet. Still a work in progress.


	


   Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers.

   What are the load-analysis numbers for items

   on the e-bus?



   Bob . . .

Uncle

Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 10

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

Most of these came from the components' docs, some from examples in the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting). Its not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a battery only scenario one would be turned off anyway. However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow for a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit. Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load for this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are not listed. Here's the E-bus load list.

Trim: 0.3

Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1

L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04

Inst Panel Lts: 0.5

Panel Fld Lts: 0.25

Dynon D180: 1.6 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr)

Dynon D10A: 1.0 (Can op on internal batt ~1hr)

TruTrak T&B: 0.5

Audio Panel: 1.0

Nav/Comm 1: 5.0

Nav/Comm 2: 5.0

Xpndr: 1.6

Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup GPS or other)

Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5 

Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit module)

--- On Thu, 11/3/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 12:46 PM

 --> AeroElectric-List message

 posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 At 06:35 AM 11/3/2011, you wrote:

 > Bob,

 > The schematic is attached. Its mostly the Z-11 with

 Z-30 and Z-32 mixed in(dual battery and relay controlled

 E-bus). Two 16AH batteries. Not all the wire sizes and

 CB/fuse sizes have been filled in yet. Still a work in

 progress.

   Understand. Okay, let's look at your numbers.

   What are the load-analysis numbers for items

   on the e-bus?

   Bob . . . 

 Lists This Month --

 Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)

 Raiser.  Click on

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 Dralle, List Admin.

 AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

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    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

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_________________
William E. Buckley

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be suitable, IMHO.

Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to parallel fuses.



One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to the main power bus.

The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be on the high side.  The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses about 1.1 amps, a nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps transmit, depending on the brand.

  If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the load on the e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be protected with a 15 amp fuse fed with 14AWG.

  The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be downsized to #6 unless it is a long run.  8AWG could even be used for very short runs.  Even though the alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will normally be putting out a fraction of that.

  The ammeter shunt location will show battery charging current which is normally close to zero, pretty useless information.  System voltage will indicate if the alternator is working or not.  You might consider eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen space for displaying some other more useful parameter, perhaps temperature from a thermocouple.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

At 02:26 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote:


<hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>



Most of these came from the components' docs, some from examples in 

the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the Nav/Comms I listed 

both at max load (ie transmitting). Its not realistic to transmit on 

both simultaneouly and in a battery only scenario one would be turned 

off anyway. However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow 

for a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit. 

Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load for this 

exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are not listed. Here's 

the E-bus load list.



      Okay, Joe beat me to it with some astute observatation

      cogent arguments. I'll expand on Joe's posting as follows:



Trim: 0.3    (This is an intermittant load not significant

               to an energy study)

Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1

L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04

Inst Panel Lts: 0.5

Panel Fld Lts: 0.25  (Do you need BOTH lighting systems in a

                       endurance mode?)

Dynon D180: 1.6

Dynon D10A: 1.0

TruTrak T&B: 0.5     (Are all of these instruments part of your

                       Plan-B for alternator-out operations? It appears

                       that the D180 has the broadest range of features

                       and could be the e-bus favorite for alternator-out

                       ops)

Audio Panel: 1.0

Nav/Comm 1: 5.0

Nav/Comm 2: 5.0      (Surely one nav/com would suffice. Further, while

                       the peak load may be 5A during transmit, only

                       the receive mode is significant to the total

                       energy requirements)

Xpndr: 1.6

Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup GPS or other)

                      (Do you have a MAIN GPS?)



Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5  (also intermittent duty)



Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit module)

                       (This is a LOT of of current for an LED annunciator)



                     I think if you consider the normal running loads

                     upon which you stack the occasional transient load

                     your total load figures will get much better.



                     Have you considered the SD-8 as an aux alternator

                     to support alternator out ops?  What's your calculated

                     endurance, battery only?)



------------- Joe's Response with further food for thought 

----------------------

At 09:08 AM 11/4/2011, you wrote:




Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be suitable, IMHO.

Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to parallel fuses.



One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to the main power bus.

The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be on the 

high side.  The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses about 1.1 amps, a 

nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps transmit, depending on the brand.

   If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the load on the 

e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be protected with a 15 amp 

fuse fed with 14AWG.

   The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be downsized to #6 

unless it is a long run.  8AWG could even be used for very short 

runs.  Even though the alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will 

normally be putting out a fraction of that.

   The ammeter shunt location will show battery charging current 

which is normally close to zero, pretty useless information.  System 

voltage will indicate if the alternator is working or not.  You might 

consider eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen 

space for displaying some other more useful parameter, perhaps 

temperature from a thermocouple.

Joe



--------

Joe Gores

Uncle

Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 10

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

Gents,

Feedback very much appreciate. A bit more work to do on my end. Circling back to one of the original questions: for circuit protect of the ebus supply line, any harm in doing it with a fusible-link (14ga for 10ga supply)?



William



--- On Fri, 11/4/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 12:13 PM

 --> AeroElectric-List message

 posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 

 At 02:26 PM 11/3/2011, you wrote:

 

 <hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Most of these came from the components' docs, some from

 examples in the 'Connection', and a few are SWAG's. For the

 Nav/Comms I listed both at max load (ie transmitting). Its

 not realistic to transmit on both simultaneouly and in a

 battery only scenario one would be turned off anyway.

 However I want both to be available on the Ebus to allow for

 a really bad night if the alternator and one nav/comm quit.

 Perhaps it is overkill to list both nav/comms at max load

 for this exercise?? Also, the relays to power the Ebus are

 not listed. Here's the E-bus load list.

 

      Okay, Joe beat me to it with some

 astute observatation

      cogent arguments. I'll expand on

 Joe's posting as follows:

 

 Trim: 0.3    (This is an intermittant load not

 significant

               to an

 energy study)

 Lft Fwd Kneeboard Lt: 0.1

 L&R Fuel Probes: 0.04

 Inst Panel Lts: 0.5

 Panel Fld Lts: 0.25  (Do you need BOTH lighting

 systems in a

                

       endurance mode?)

 Dynon D180: 1.6

 Dynon D10A: 1.0

 TruTrak T&B: 0.5     (Are all of

 these instruments part of your

                

       Plan-B for alternator-out operations?

 It appears

                

       that the D180 has the broadest range of

 features

                

       and could be the e-bus favorite for

 alternator-out

                

       ops)

 Audio Panel: 1.0

 Nav/Comm 1: 5.0

 Nav/Comm 2: 5.0      (Surely one nav/com

 would suffice. Further, while

                

       the peak load may be 5A during

 transmit, only

                

       the receive mode is significant to the

 total

                

       energy requirements)

 Xpndr: 1.6

 Left Panel Cig Lighter: 0.75 (SWAG load for handheld backup

 GPS or other)

                

      (Do you have a MAIN GPS?)

 

 Fuel Boost/Prime: 1.5  (also intermittent duty)

 

 Annunciator panel: 1.5 (8 LED's with controlling circuit

 module)

                

       (This is a LOT of of current for an LED

 annunciator)

 

                

     I think if you consider the normal running

 loads

                

     upon which you stack the occasional transient

 load

                

     your total load figures will get much better.

 

                

     Have you considered the SD-8 as an aux

 alternator

                

     to support alternator out ops?  What's

 your calculated

                

     endurance, battery only?)

 

 ------------- Joe's Response with further food for thought

 ----------------------

 At 09:08 AM 11/4/2011, you wrote:

 

 <fran4sew(at)banyanol.com>

 

 Question 1: Yes, the B&C S8009 40A relay is be

 suitable, IMHO.

 Question 2: For circuit protection, it not advisable to

 parallel fuses.

 

 One of the Dynons and one of the nav/coms can be moved to

 the main power bus.

 The estimated current draw of some of the loads seems to be

 on the high side.  The Garmin GTX-327 typically uses

 about 1.1 amps, a nav/com about 1 amp receive and 3 amps

 transmit, depending on the brand.

   If some of the load is moved to the main bus, the

 load on the e-bus will drop to under 10 amps and can be

 protected with a 15 amp fuse fed with 14AWG.

   The 4AWG feeding the main power bus could be

 downsized to #6 unless it is a long run.  8AWG could

 even be used for very short runs.  Even though the

 alternator is rated for 60 amps, it will normally be putting

 out a fraction of that.

   The ammeter shunt location will show battery

 charging current which is normally close to zero, pretty

 useless information.  System voltage will indicate if

 the alternator is working or not.  You might consider

 eliminating the shunt and using that Dynon D-180 screen

 space for displaying some other more useful parameter,

 perhaps temperature from a thermocouple.

 Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 Lists This Month --

 Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)

 Raiser.  Click on

 out more about

 Gifts provided

 AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 www.buildersbooks.com

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

 AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

 FAQ,

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
William E. Buckley

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, Joe beat me to it with some astute observatation cogent arguments. 	


You deserve the credit, Bob, for being my mentor.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

At 02:18 PM 11/4/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>



Gents,

Feedback very much appreciate. A bit more work to do on my end. 

Circling back to one of the original questions: for circuit protect 

of the ebus supply line, any harm in doing it with a fusible-link 

(14ga for 10ga supply)?



William


	


   Not recommended. Fusible links (like current limiters)

   are intended to protect HEAVY feeders subject to large,

   short time transients (like downstream breaker trips).



   There's no sin in fusing a wire for less than rated

   capability. I've often used upsized wires to get a lower

   voltage drop . . . without upsizing the protection.



   If your goal is to embrace the original design goals

   for the e-bus, then total loads need to be reduced to

   some value that affords HOURS of endurance battery

   only. What size batteries do you plan to carry?

   Just as an example:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/17AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif



   This set of performance curves for an 18 a.h. battery

   suggest that a NEW battery will carry a 5 amp e-bus

   for 2 hours. If you need that 2 hour goal to be met

   at an 80% end of service life, then you'd need to

   downsize to about 4 amps e-bus load.



   Your batteries need to be selected as a trade-off

   between equipment really necessary for comfortable

   en route operations and the amount of lead and

   plastic you're willing to drag around. This study

   in energy management illustrates the value in adding

   the SD-8 standby alternator. It's good for 8A for

   ANY number of hours thus saving limited energy

   in SMALLER batteries for approach to landing

   and arrival. That 3.5 pound alternator can replace

   a whole lot more pounds of lead.



   One battery and two alternators is a lot more

   attractive than one alternator and any number/size

   of batteries.

   Bob . . .

Uncle

Joined: 04 Oct 2011
Posts: 10

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: E-Bus Circuit Protection

Good info. Thanks for the extra help. 



William



--- On Sat, 11/5/11, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: E-Bus Circuit Protection

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 1:42 AM

 --> AeroElectric-List message

 posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 

 At 02:18 PM 11/4/2011, you wrote:

 > 

 William <hoverandwire(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > Gents,

 > Feedback very much appreciate. A bit more work to do

 on my end. Circling back to one of the original questions:

 for circuit protect of the ebus supply line, any harm in

 doing it with a fusible-link (14ga for 10ga supply)?

 > 

 > William

 

   Not recommended. Fusible links (like current

 limiters)

   are intended to protect HEAVY feeders subject to

 large,

   short time transients (like downstream breaker

 trips).

 

   There's no sin in fusing a wire for less than rated

   capability. I've often used upsized wires to get a

 lower

   voltage drop . . . without upsizing the protection.

 

   If your goal is to embrace the original design

 goals

   for the e-bus, then total loads need to be reduced

 to

   some value that affords HOURS of endurance battery

   only. What size batteries do you plan to carry?

   Just as an example:

 

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/17AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif

 

   This set of performance curves for an 18 a.h.

 battery

   suggest that a NEW battery will carry a 5 amp e-bus

   for 2 hours. If you need that 2 hour goal to be met

   at an 80% end of service life, then you'd need to

   downsize to about 4 amps e-bus load.

 

   Your batteries need to be selected as a trade-off

   between equipment really necessary for comfortable

   en route operations and the amount of lead and

   plastic you're willing to drag around. This study

   in energy management illustrates the value in

 adding

   the SD-8 standby alternator. It's good for 8A for

   ANY number of hours thus saving limited energy

   in SMALLER batteries for approach to landing

   and arrival. That 3.5 pound alternator can replace

   a whole lot more pounds of lead.

 

   One battery and two alternators is a lot more

   attractive than one alternator and any number/size

   of batteries.

 

 

   Bob . . . 

 

 Lists This Month --

 Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)

 Raiser.  Click on

 out more about

 Gifts provided

 AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 www.buildersbooks.com

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

 AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

 FAQ,

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

_________________
William E. Buckley

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