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Europa Finger Brakes

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carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Can I just get a bit of advice from anyone with finger brakes fitted? 



 

Mine seem to be a bit odd.  Firstly, if i just pull a single one of them it will hit the stop, whereas if i pull them both they have more feel and don't hit the stop quite so much, however they seem to respond better with a bit of pumping first. 



 

Essentially I'm saying that they appear to be substandard, need pumping to work properly, and even then pulling just one doesn't seem to work well. 



 

Any thoughts on what could be wrong?  An engineer investigated it but couldn't find anything wrong - he checked they were bled and suchlike, he then reported it was caused by the fact the master cylinders were not big enough for the callipers so they need pumping.

    [quote][b]

nigel henry

Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 16
Location: oxford uk

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Just some tips   perhaps you have water in the system so drain and refill with correct fluid.  Also if you have air in the system Hold the finger leavers forward agaist the stops for a day, which will drain the air to the top of the system and should give you a better pedal just pump gently a few times if it returns then you have an air leak or water ingress od stuck pistons also if the brakes start to stich on check the lines for being pinched     Nigel 

Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:38:55 +0000

Subject: Europa Finger Brakes

From: carlmeek(at)gmail.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Can I just get a bit of advice from anyone with finger brakes fitted?

Mine seem to be a bit odd.  Firstly, if i just pull a single one of them it will hit the stop, whereas if i pull them both they have more feel and don't hit the stop quite so much, however they seem to respond better with a bit of pumping first.

Essentially I'm saying that they appear to be substandard, need pumping to work properly, and even then pulling just one doesn't seem to work well

duanefamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Describe the type of master cylinder you have as well as the type wheel cylinders. There have been a few master cylinders of inferior quality experienced by several builders.

    

   Mike Duane

   

 

 

  

   --

carlmeek(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Thanks for the advice, I've just come from the airfield having done a bit more investigation.

Attached is a picture of my master cylinder, apparently it's a "New Jamar finger brake controller all filled with DOT5.1 fluid filled from the wheels as per the build book"

Apparently I have "Matco 5 inch discs on the wheels with new seals fitted."

I just  popped the cover off the levers to look at the master cylinders and  there are A LOT of very large bubbles in the left hand tube leading out  of the master cylinder.



I  have just bought a bleeding kit and some 5.1 and will try to sort it  out tomorrow, I'm just worried there is a leak or something – as it was fine last week but absolutely terrible now..



Do you think a simple bleed from the LH calliper will do the job?

Regards,

-Carl.



From:  <duanefamly(at)aol.com (duanefamly(at)aol.com)>

Reply-To:  <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

Date:  Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:16:54 -0500 (EST)

To:  <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

Subject:  Re: Europa-List: Europa Finger Brakes



Describe the type of master cylinder you have as well as the type wheel cylinders. There have been a few master cylinders of inferior quality experienced by several builders.

 

Mike Duane



  

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Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:40 am Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Carl 

Not wishing to be a party pooper don’t use Dot 5.1 Brake fluid in your system,  

Dot 5.1 is a glycol base brake fluid and is not suitable for the seals in the Brake valve  

And callipers, I have had two Jaymar cylinders and both were a problem even after  

A complete strip/clean and seal replacement,  

Last year I through them out and fitted the twin matco cylinders using normal aviation  

Hydraulic oil or ATF, also replaced the calliper and brake valve with the Buna seals and had no problems since,   

The only fluid combatable with both types of seals is   

Silicone Dot 5 

  

If you check the archive there is a great deals of information about this very subject, I personally do not like the silicone fluid So changed all my seals to EPDM and used DOT 5.1 Glycol based fluid,  That was Until the Jaymars Gave up the ghost, So replace all my seals with Buna/N and fitted the Matco Master cylinders using Standard Aviation hydraulic oil, It all works fine now  

  

  

  

         

DOT MINIMUM BOILING POINT SPECIFICATIONS      

Fluid Type:   

Glycol-based Fluids    

Silicone Fluid     

DOT3   

DOT4   

DOT5.1   

DOT5    

Minimum Dry Boiling Point1   

205 °C/401  °F    

230°C/ 446 °F   

~270 °C/518 °F   

230 °C/500 °F    

Minimum Wet Boiling Point2   

140 °C /284 °F    

155°C /311 °F    

~190 °C/375 °F   

180 °C /356 °F3    

1 Dry fluid is with no water content as from a freshly opened container.

 2 Wet fluids is with 3.5% water content typical of glycol-based fluids after 24 months use.

3 The wet boiling point for the DOT 5 fluid is the DOT specification.  The silicone fluid absorbs a very small amount of water (<0.3%) so the boiling point doesn't change with use and one can expect the boiling point to remain at ~ 230 °C/500 °F for many years. 

 

  

Regards 

  

Ivor Phillips 

G-IVER



 On 11 November 2011 15:57, Carl Meek <carlmeek(at)gmail.com (carlmeek(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]  Thanks for the advice, I've just come from the airfield having done a bit more investigation.

 



 Attached is a picture of my master cylinder, apparently it's a "New Jamar finger brake controller all filled with DOT5.1 fluid filled from the wheels as per the build book"

  Apparently I have "Matco 5 inch discs on the wheels with new seals fitted."

  



 I just popped the cover off the levers to look at the master cylinders and there are A LOT of very large bubbles in the left hand tube leading out of the master cylinder.   



 I have just bought a bleeding kit and some 5.1 and will try to sort it out tomorrow, I'm just worried there is a leak or something – as it was fine last week but absolutely terrible now..

 

 



 Do you think a simple bleed from the LH calliper will do the job?

 



 Regards,

 -Carl.



 



  From: <duanefamly(at)aol.com (duanefamly(at)aol.com)>

Reply-To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:16:54 -0500 (EST)

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Subject: Re: Europa Finger Brakes



  



 Describe the type of master cylinder you have as well as the type wheel cylinders. There have been a few master cylinders of inferior quality experienced by several builders.

  

 Mike Duane

 

 

 --

neveyre(at)aol.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Hi,

   If you have the Jamar master cylinder, this is what you have to do.....

   Lay out some clean paper on your bench, remove the Jamar unit from the plane and disassemble the unit, keep all the seals / springs / pushrods etc in the correct order, laid out on the clean paper.

   Take a close look at the quality of all the parts.... this is about as poor as anything could ever be made ! Wrap all the parts up in the paper and lob it in the bin !

   You could invest a lot of time in cleaning the buffing soap [ that was used to put the BS shine on the outside ] from the inside, and polish the machining marks from the bores, clean the soap from the tranverse bore between the two cylinders, ease the diameter and radius the edge of the nylon washers and try to make something out of it, but from experience you can spend a lot of time that rarely gives you something you would want to put in an Aircraft.

   Two options.

   1. Fit Matco cylinders, top quality, very expensive but will work. Can still be a bear to bleed, but you can use the red [ cherryade] brake fluid that every Aircraft Maintenence Facility has ....

   2.Use two of the Kart master cylinders as fitted to the Mono Europa and original Trigear [ foot brakes ], you will need to make longer levers [ to get mechanical advantage] BUT there are two kinds of seals / O rings around, one sort is suitable for Dot 3,[ as supplied for the Mono] which works with the Europa caliper, the other is for the cherryade that works with the Matco caliper. Trouble is you can't tell the difference by looking at them, if used in the wrong fluid, they expand / go squishy.

   Europa have a stock of these that they don't know which type they are, so no help there.

   You CAN use Silicone Dot 5 with both the master cylinders and the Calipers, but it is damn awful stuff, very thick [ so is a bitch to bleed] and if you get any on paintwork [ or God forbid unpainted structure] you will never get anything to really get it off. Only one good place for Silicone, that is where Dolly Parton / Pamela Anderson has it !

    Bleeding the set up with the Kart cylinders is a breeze, big [Large Vet's syringe] bit of model fuel tube stuffed over the bleed nipple, bung out of the Master cylinder, crack open the nipple, squirt the fuid in, have someone peek at the bung hole, when it comes to the top, job done 5 minutes a side Max. Down side ? As the pads wear you need to top up the fluid, but simple as you just need to dribble it in the bung hole to the bottom of the threads.

   You might be able to use the Jamar unit as the lever / baseplate and graft the Kart cylinders on to that ? I will have a look tomorrow on the feasability of that.That would save a lot of mucking about.

   Cheers,

   Nev

 

 

 

   --

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

I used Nev's method of the Kart Cylinders and it is perfect. 

  

 Nev you always give the perfect answer to a question " Thanx Nev" 

  

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================

 



   

From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.co.uk>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, 11 November 2011, 21:35

Subject: Re: Europa Finger Brakes



  Hi,

 If you have the Jamar master cylinder, this is what you have to do.....

 Lay out some clean paper on your bench, remove the Jamar unit from the plane and disassemble the unit, keep all the seals / springs / pushrods etc in the correct order, laid out on the clean paper.

 Take a close look at the quality of all the parts.... this is about as poor as anything could ever be made ! Wrap all the parts up in the paper and lob it in the bin !

 You could invest a lot of time in cleaning the buffing soap [ that was used to put the BS shine on the outside ] from the inside, and polish the machining marks from the bores, clean the soap from the tranverse bore between the two cylinders, ease the diameter and radius the edge of the nylon washers and try to make something out of it, but from experience you can spend a lot of time that rarely gives you something you would want to put in an Aircraft.

 Two options.

 1. Fit Matco cylinders, top quality, very expensive but will work. Can still be a bear to bleed, but you can use the red [ cherryade] brake fluid that every Aircraft Maintenence Facility has ....

 2.Use two of the Kart master cylinders as fitted to the Mono Europa and original Trigear [ foot brakes ], you will need to make longer levers [ to get mechanical advantage] BUT there are two kinds of seals / O rings around, one sort is suitable for Dot 3,[ as supplied for the Mono] which works with the Europa caliper, the other is for the cherryade that works with the Matco caliper. Trouble is you can't tell the difference by looking at them, if used in the wrong fluid, they expand / go squishy.

 Europa have a stock of these that they don't know which type they are, so no help there.

 You CAN use Silicone Dot 5 with both the master cylinders and the Calipers, but it is damn awful stuff, very thick [ so is a bitch to bleed] and if you get any on paintwork [ or God forbid unpainted structure] you will never get anything to really get it off. Only one good place for Silicone, that is where Dolly Parton / Pamela Anderson has it !

  Bleeding the set up with the Kart cylinders is a breeze, big [Large Vet's syringe] bit of model fuel tube stuffed over the bleed nipple, bung out of the Master cylinder, crack open the nipple, squirt the fuid in, have someone peek at the bung hole, when it comes to the top, job done 5 minutes a side Max. Down side ? As the pads wear you need to top up the fluid, but simple as you just need to dribble it in the bung hole to the bottom of the threads.

 You might be able to use the Jamar unit as the lever / baseplate and graft the Kart cylinders on to that ? I will have a look tomorrow on the feasability of that.That would save a lot of mucking about.

 Cheers,

 Nev



 --

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

On 11/11/2011 04:57 PM, Carl Meek wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Attached is a picture of my master cylinder, apparently it's a "New

 Jamar finger brake controller all filled with DOT5.1 fluid filled from

 the wheels as per the build book"


	


DOT5.1 is not per the book. The book says 5.0. You might think that 5.1 

is an upgrade of 5.0, but it is not, it is entirely different stuff.



Apart from that, the Jamar brakes are rubbish. My kit came with the 

Jamar cylinders, after spending almost a frustrating week in futile 

attempts to bleed them and to get these things working, I tossed them 

out and replaced them by Matco cylinders. Bleeding was then a piece of 

cake and the brake system now works like a charm. I'm glad I never flew 

with the Jamar cylinders but got rid of them just in time.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just popped the cover off the levers to look at the master cylinders

 and there are A LOT of very large bubbles in the left hand tube leading

 out of the master cylinder.


	


I have been there. Forget about getting these bubbles away. I pumped 

almost a full can of DOT5.0 through these things but the bubbles never 

went away.



Now you have used DOT 5.1 instead of DOT 5.0, you have probably 

destroyed the seals. Don't bother fixing them, toss the whole thing out 

and replace them by Matco's and fill the system with red aircraft 

hydraulic fluid.



Frans

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

On 12/11/2011, at 8:24 AM, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nev you always give the perfect answer to a question " Thanx Nev" 

	


Couldn't agree more Richard ...... even answered my questions about Dolly and Pamela and I didn't even ask!!  <g>

Cheers

Kingsley 

Do not archive

Sent from my iPhone

 [quote][b]

trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Kingsley, ask him about Meg!!

Regards





Trev

G-LINN



Sent from my iPhone 



On 12 Nov 2011, at 00:16, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:



[quote]On 12/11/2011, at 8:24 AM, Richard Wheelwright <[url=mailto:rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk]rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)[/url]> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nev you always give the perfect answer to a question " Thanx Nev" 

	


Couldn't agree more Richard ...... even answered my questions about Dolly and Pamela and I didn't even ask!!  <g>

Cheers

Kingsley 

Do not archive

Sent from my iPhone

  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Frans, 

Could you please provide the exact part numbers for the MATCO Brake cylinders fitting the Europa TRI?Aircraft Spruce lists 4 types: MCM-5 and MCM-5A. MCM-4 and MCM-4A.

Thanks!

Christoph Both

#223

Wolfville, Nova Scotia Canada

--

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

The Matco master cylinder is MC-4D.

 Good evening

 Michel AUVRAY

  

   [quote][b]

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Christoph



The master cylinders that fit are the Matco MCM-4D.  AS do not stock them

but they can be ordered direct from Matco.  Europa also supply them (the

last pair I purchased were only just more expensive than Matco)



How to fit them is covered in the Combined Build manual CBM-33T (Matco)

available on the Europa site.



Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

richard collings

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 73
Location: warwickshire england

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: Europa Finger Brakes

Hi I don't know what seal are fitted in your brake system so  to be safe you must use DOT5 fluid no other. 

 To help with bleeding the system first apply the brake on the  wheel you are not attempting to bleed and tie the brake finger leaver in the on  position. Now bleed the other brake circuit from the wheel cylinder by  using one of the std pressure bleeding kit's [Airworld 300981 worked for me]  that way you will drive the air up and out of the system at the header tank.  Once you are clear of air on the first circuit lock the bleed nipple shut and  repeat the same procedure on the other circuit. 

 Good luck Richard

 [quote]   ---

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