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Fuel (boost) pump

 
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dsherburn



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
I'm putting together an electrical load analysis spreadsheet and can find most continuous and intermittent electrical loads for the devices I've selected. I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps? This will allow me to research the elelctrical load requirements.

Also, I'm assuming about 600ma cont. load from my "master" solenoid and about 4a intermittent from my starter solenoid load. Does that sound about right?

Thanks in advance,
Dan Sherburn
[quote][b]

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tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
What engine/ fuel system are you boosting?
Tim
From: Dan Sherburn <dsherburn(at)att.net>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, November 12, 2011 6:59:48 PM
Subject: Fuel (boost) pump

I'm putting together an electrical load analysis spreadsheet and can find most continuous and intermittent electrical loads for the devices I've selected. I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps? This will allow me to research the elelctrical load requirements.

Also, I'm assuming about 600ma cont. load from my "master" solenoid and about 4a intermittent from my starter solenoid load. Does that sound about right?

Thanks in advance,
Dan Sherburn
[quote]
[b]

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dsherburn



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:10 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
I haven't purchased an engine yet but plan on using an O-200 (perhaps the O-235) on the CH750, which is a high wing design. Fuel tank is in the wing, so it's essentially gravity feed. Reading "Firewall Forward", because of the gravity feed and the mechanical fuel pump I technically may not even need one. I plan to use one, however.
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:35 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=8440

Google 'facet fuel pump'.
Above is a typical cube type pump made by Facet for small/medium hp carb'd engines. According to the Pegasus link, it draws about 1 amp at 12 volts.

Ask a local A&P about O-200's on certified high wing planes; I'll bet almost none actually have fuel pumps. I know that the Luscombe 8A I learned to fly in didn't have one on its 65hp version (no electrical system).

The real test would be, what does Zenith say?

Charlie


On 11/13/2011 7:05 AM, Dan Sherburn wrote: [quote] DIV { MARGIN: 0px } I haven't purchased an engine yet but plan on using an O-200 (perhaps the O-235) on the CH750, which is a high wing design. Fuel tank is in the wing, so it's essentially gravity feed. Reading "Firewall Forward", because of the gravity feed and the mechanical fuel pump I technically may not even need one. I plan to use one, however.
[quote] ---

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
At 07:32 AM 11/13/2011, you wrote:
Quote:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=8440

Google 'facet fuel pump'.
Above is a typical cube type pump made by Facet for small/medium hp carb'd engines. According to the Pegasus link, it draws about 1 amp at 12 volts.

Ask a local A&P about O-200's on certified high wing planes; I'll bet almost none actually have fuel pumps. I know that the Luscombe 8A I learned to fly in didn't have one on its 65hp version (no electrical system).

The real test would be, what does Zenith say?

This is an IMPORTANT question. Gravity
feed fuel systems are quite common in
aviation . . . in airplanes with high
wing tanks (a la the 8A) or fuselage
tanks behind the firewall line the J-3.

These systems get qualified by positioning
the airplane at some deck angle at or above
that which the airplane can sustain flight
and the measuring the gravity fuel flow
rates on the as-installed plumbing to make
sure the engine is never starved for fuel.

Unlike pumped systems, gravity fed systems
may have only a few inches of head-pressure
of the fuel itself (which is 3/4 as dense as
water).

ADDING anything in the line through which
fuel must flow is a potential restriction.
The Facet pumps have double check valves
with un-seating pressures that MIGHT not
be a problem but if the airplane's design
does not call for a pump, I'd be very cautious
about adding it . . . or making any other
"neat" changes to the fuel delivery system.

Bob . . . [quote][b]

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deej(at)deej.net
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
Quote:
I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?



Hi Dan,
I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing Glastar that is currently gravity feed only, and am considering switching the carb to a Rotec TBI unit (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for takeoff, but I don't really know what to pick either. I see Facet pumps for as low as $30 and others over $600.

I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through it when turned off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be turned on for takeoff to provide the extra head pressure. Suggestions are welcome... Smile

-Dj

[quote]--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/

[b]

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
On 11/13/2011 10:20 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
Quote:
On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
Quote:
I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?



Hi Dan,
I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing Glastar that is currently gravity feed only, and am considering switching the carb to a Rotec TBI unit (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for takeoff, but I don't really know what to pick either. I see Facet pumps for as low as $30 and others over $600.

I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through it when turned off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be turned on for takeoff to provide the extra head pressure. Suggestions are welcome... Smile

-Dj
Try
http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.php

& look at the Posi-Flow & Cube (Cube is probably a better choice) lines.

http://www.facet-purolator.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=7&id=16&Itemid=31
is a chart showing characteristics of the cube pumps.

'Check valve' means that it prevents *back* flow through the pump when the pump is off. This allows plumbing 2 pumps in parallel & running only one at a time.

'Positive shutoff' means that the pump won't flow fuel in the normal direction of flow if the pump isn't running (obviously, *not* what you want). This feature would be useful when used as a transfer pump for an aux tank, for instance, when you want flow only when commanded.

Min dry lift means the level that the pump can pull up from a tank to 'self prime'; it shouldn't be an issue if your tank is above the pump (& fuel pickup is on the bottom of the tank).

Rotec's page seems to say that any pressure from 1/2psi to 6 psi is ok, so.... pick voltage needed, inlet/outlet type needed, pressure you prefer, connector style desired (that should be fairly flexible on a new install Smile ), & gallons per hr needed (I'd pick at least 30-50% more than max flow for the engine at full rich & full power).

As a data point, Van's aircraft uses a Facet in their low-wing RV-12 (light sport legal) to feed the Rotax 912, and the pump runs any time the master is on. Logic is that the pump is so reliable that continuous operation over the life of the engine installation is a reasonable assumption. I'm confident that they'd tell you which model they use if you gave them a call. A second data point (addressing reliability) is that some RV guys are removing the stock Lyc engine pumps & running 2 Facets in parallel (see above).

Charlie
[quote][b]

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cdnch701builder



Joined: 21 Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
Hey Dj...

I'm also going with the Rotex TBI-34! With the remote pressure regulator (they
recommend a 0.5 - 6.0psi) I will be using two(20) - Facet #40108 inline(no check
valves - 4.5- 6.0psi) even though my aircraft is a high wing 701! Van's Aircraft
have them for $42
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1321206508-6-732&browse=engine
s&product=pump-carb...

Very simple wiring to set up!
Ron

:--)> On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR.
:--)>:--)> I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and
:--)>:--)> I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are
:--)>:--)> folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?
:--)>
:--)>
:--)> Hi Dan,
:--)> I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing
:--)> Glastar that is currently gravity feed only, and am considering
:--)> switching the carb to a Rotec TBI unit
:--)> (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for
:--)> takeoff, but I don't really know what to pick either. I see
:--)> Facet pumps for as low as $30 and others over $600.
:--)>
:--)> I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through
:--)> it when turned off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be
:--)> turned on for takeoff to provide the extra head pressure.
:--)> Suggestions are welcome... Smile
:--)>
:--)> -Dj
:--)>
:--)> --
:--)> Dj Merrill - N1JOV
:--)> Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
:--)> Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
:--)>
:--)> * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com
:--)> for your generous support!
:--)> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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cdnch701builder
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
If I understand the 'no check valve' spec correctly, if 2 are plumbed in
parallel you'll be either pumping into the opposite tank (t tanks), or
circulating fuel back through the other pump (single tank) when only one
is running. ( Unless you're using external check valves.)

On 11/13/2011 11:58 AM, cdnch701 wrote:
Quote:


Hey Dj...

I'm also going with the Rotex TBI-34! With the remote pressure regulator (they
recommend a 0.5 - 6.0psi) I will be using two(20) - Facet #40108 inline(no check
valves - 4.5- 6.0psi) even though my aircraft is a high wing 701! Van's Aircraft
have them for $42
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1321206508-6-732&browse=engine
s&product=pump-carb...

Very simple wiring to set up!
Ron

:--)> On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR.
:--)>:--)> I do know, however, I'll be using a fuel boost pump and
:--)>:--)> I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one out. What are
:--)>:--)> folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?
:--)>
:--)>
:--)> Hi Dan,
:--)> I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing
:--)> Glastar that is currently gravity feed only, and am considering
:--)> switching the carb to a Rotec TBI unit
:--)> (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for
:--)> takeoff, but I don't really know what to pick either. I see
:--)> Facet pumps for as low as $30 and others over $600.
:--)>
:--)> I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through
:--)> it when turned off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be
:--)> turned on for takeoff to provide the extra head pressure.
:--)> Suggestions are welcome... Smile
:--)>
:--)> -Dj



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cdnch701builder



Joined: 21 Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
Not in parallel... series only!

:--)>
:--)>
:--)> If I understand the 'no check valve' spec correctly, if 2 are plumbed in parallel
:--)> you'll be either pumping into the opposite tank (t tanks), or circulating fuel back
:--)> through the other pump (single tank) when only one is running. ( Unless you're
:--)> using external check valves.)
:--)>
:--)> On 11/13/2011 11:58 AM, cdnch701 wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hey Dj...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm also going with the Rotex TBI-34! With the remote pressure regulator
:--)>:--)> (they recommend a 0.5 - 6.0psi) I will be using two(20) - Facet #40108
:--)>:--)> inline(no check valves - 4.5- 6.0psi) even though my aircraft is a high wing
:--)>:--)> 701! Van's Aircraft have them for $42
:--)>:--)> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1321206508-6-
:--)>:--)> 732&browse=engine s&product=pump-carb...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Very simple wiring to set up!
:--)>:--)> Ron
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however,
:--)>:--)> I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one
:--)>:--)> out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hi Dan,
:--)>:--)> I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing Glastar that is
:--)>:--)> currently gravity feed only, and am considering switching the carb to a Rotec
:--)>:--)> TBI unit
:--)>:--)> (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for takeoff, but I
:--)>:--)> don't really know what to pick either. I see Facet pumps for as low as $30
:--)>:--)> and others over $600.
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through it when turned
:--)>:--)> off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be turned on for takeoff to
:--)>:--)> provide the extra head pressure. Suggestions are welcome... Smile
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> -Dj
:--)>
:--)>

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cdnch701builder
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
Now you have twice the pressure, & lose half that if one pump fails. If
you're running 2 each 3 psi pumps, then the Rotex shouldn't care, I suppose.

On 11/13/2011 3:34 PM, cdnch701 wrote:
Quote:


Not in parallel... series only!

:--)>
:--)>
:--)> If I understand the 'no check valve' spec correctly, if 2 are plumbed in parallel
:--)> you'll be either pumping into the opposite tank (t tanks), or circulating fuel back
:--)> through the other pump (single tank) when only one is running. ( Unless you're
:--)> using external check valves.)
:--)>
:--)> On 11/13/2011 11:58 AM, cdnch701 wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hey Dj...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm also going with the Rotex TBI-34! With the remote pressure regulator
:--)>:--)> (they recommend a 0.5 - 6.0psi) I will be using two(20) - Facet #40108
:--)>:--)> inline(no check valves - 4.5- 6.0psi) even though my aircraft is a high wing
:--)>:--)> 701! Van's Aircraft have them for $42
:--)>:--)> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1321206508-6-
:--)>:--)> 732&browse=engine s&product=pump-carb...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Very simple wiring to set up!
:--)>:--)> Ron
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however,
:--)>:--)> I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one
:--)>:--)> out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hi Dan,
:--)>:--)> I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing Glastar that is
:--)>:--)> currently gravity feed only, and am considering switching the carb to a Rotec
:--)>:--)> TBI unit
:--)>:--)> (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for takeoff, but I
:--)>:--)> don't really know what to pick either. I see Facet pumps for as low as $30
:--)>:--)> and others over $600.
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through it when turned
:--)>:--)> off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be turned on for takeoff to
:--)>:--)> provide the extra head pressure. Suggestions are welcome... Smile
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> -Dj
:--)>
:--)>


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cdnch701builder



Joined: 21 Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
No... one is the primary pump and the other is the secondary(backup) pump on my battery bus!

:--)>
:--)>
:--)> Now you have twice the pressure, & lose half that if one pump fails. If you're
:--)> running 2 each 3 psi pumps, then the Rotex shouldn't care, I suppose.
:--)>
:--)> On 11/13/2011 3:34 PM, cdnch701 wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Not in parallel... series only!
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> England<ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> If I understand the 'no check valve' spec correctly, if 2 are plumbed in
:--)>:--)> parallel you'll be either pumping into the opposite tank (t tanks), or
:--)>:--)> circulating fuel back through the other pump (single tank) when only one is
:--)>:--)> running. ( Unless you're using external check valves.)
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> On 11/13/2011 11:58 AM, cdnch701 wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hey Dj...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm also going with the Rotex TBI-34! With the remote pressure regulator
:--)>:--)> (they recommend a 0.5 - 6.0psi) I will be using two(20) - Facet #40108
:--)>:--)> inline(no check valves - 4.5- 6.0psi) even though my aircraft is a high wing
:--)>:--)> 701! Van's Aircraft have them for $42
:--)>:--)> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1321206508-6-
:--)>:--)> 732&browse=engine s&product=pump-carb...
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Very simple wiring to set up!
:--)>:--)> Ron
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> On 11/12/2011 9:59 PM, Dan Sherburn wrote:
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I'm building a Zenith CH750 that will be simple day VFR. I do know, however,
:--)>:--)> I'll be using a fuel boost pump and I'm finding I'm not sure how to pick one
:--)>:--)> out. What are folks typically using as fuel boost pumps?
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> Hi Dan,
:--)>:--)> I'm in a similar situation. I have a carb'ed high wing Glastar that is
:--)>:--)> currently gravity feed only, and am considering switching the carb to a Rotec
:--)>:--)> TBI unit
:--)>:--)> (http://www.rotectbi.com/). They recommend a boost pump for takeoff, but I
:--)>:--)> don't really know what to pick either. I see Facet pumps for as low as $30
:--)>:--)> and others over $600.
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> I think we need to find a pump that allows free flow through it when turned
:--)>:--)> off so to use gravity feed in cruise, but can be turned on for takeoff to
:--)>:--)> provide the extra head pressure. Suggestions are welcome... Smile
:--)>:--)>
:--)>:--)> -Dj
:--)>:--)>
:--)>

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dsherburn



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Fuel (boost) pump Reply with quote
All:
Thanks for the replies. I do have a question into Zenith, and as Bob mentions they do indicate a test by where you measure fuel flow at elevated (simulated climb) angles. They also have pictures posted on the builders site that shows an O-200 installation that does show one of the Facet pumps mounted on the firewall. I'll ask them.

I apologize in advance for turning the thread into a fuel delivery question....I really meant it to be an electrical load calculation question! Thanks again,
Dan


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