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arplnplt(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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FAA TO CHARGE COMPANIES FOR ONLINE CHARTS, NO ACCESS FOR INDIVIDUALS
The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April 5, 2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation Consumer says the Aeronautical Navigational Products Directorate(Aeronav), which currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment (like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the data. Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final pricing structure and the distribution contract. More...
Dave Leikam
do not archive
[quote][b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
doesn't it?
If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
I'd bet $10 though that Jepp had some influence in the
decision...they've been losing out on paper subscriptions
and their electronic offering is overpriced, so they
had to squeeze the cheap data somehow.
Tim
On 11/14/2011 8:02 AM, David Leikam wrote:
| Quote: | *FAA TO CHARGE COMPANIES FOR ONLINE CHARTS, NO ACCESS FOR INDIVIDUALS
<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>*
The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile
devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will
begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April 5,
2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation
Consumer says theAeronautical Navigational Products Directorate
<http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/>(Aeronav), which
currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products
available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated
with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to
companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access
them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with
Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact
will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment
(like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads
and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites
like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of
which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known
because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the data.
Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington
to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final
pricing structure and the distribution contract.More...
<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>
Dave Leikam
do not archive
|
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John Ackerman
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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How much better this world would be without Jepp...
Just another corporation with a strong lobby.
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
doesn't it?
If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
I'd bet $10 though that Jepp had some influence in the
decision...they've been losing out on paper subscriptions
and their electronic offering is overpriced, so they
had to squeeze the cheap data somehow.
Tim
On 11/14/2011 8:02 AM, David Leikam wrote:
> *FAA TO CHARGE COMPANIES FOR ONLINE CHARTS, NO ACCESS FOR INDIVIDUALS
> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>*
> The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile
> devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will
> begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April 5,
> 2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation
> Consumer says theAeronautical Navigational Products Directorate
> <http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/>(Aeronav), which
> currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products
> available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated
> with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to
> companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access
> them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with
> Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact
> will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment
> (like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads
> and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites
> like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of
> which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known
> because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the data.
> Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington
> to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final
> pricing structure and the distribution contract.More...
> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>
>
> Dave Leikam
>
> do not archive
>
|
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Why do I suspect that Garmin's lobbyists are marching lockstep with Jeppesen?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:38 AM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
How much better this world would be without Jepp...
Just another corporation with a strong lobby.
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
>
> Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
> doesn't it?
>
> If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
> a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
> download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
> you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
> to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
> much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
|
[quote][b]
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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philperry9(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:56 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Since we're subscribing to the Garmin data sets loaded into our GPS's, are those considered legal substitutes?
According to our local FSDO, electronic charts are perfectly legal. But I didn't ask about the data loaded into the GPS.
Phil
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:38 AM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
How much better this world would be without Jepp...
Just another corporation with a strong lobby.
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
>
> Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
> doesn't it?
>
> If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
> a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
> download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
> you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
> to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
> much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
>
> I'd bet $10 though that Jepp had some influence in the
> decision...they've been losing out on paper subscriptions
> and their electronic offering is overpriced, so they
> had to squeeze the cheap data somehow.
> Tim
>
> On 11/14/2011 8:02 AM, David Leikam wrote:
>> *FAA TO CHARGE COMPANIES FOR ONLINE CHARTS, NO ACCESS FOR INDIVIDUALS
>> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>*
>> The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile
>> devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will
>> begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April 5,
>> 2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation
>> Consumer says theAeronautical Navigational Products Directorate
>> <http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/>(Aeronav), which
>> currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products
>> available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated
>> with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to
>> companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access
>> them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with
>> Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact
>> will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment
>> (like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads
>> and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites
>> like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of
>> which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known
>> because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the data.
>> Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington
>> to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final
>> pricing structure and the distribution contract.More...
>> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>
>>
>> Dave Leikam
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
le, List Admin.
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
|
|
You have a Catch 22. You only need what you can't remember. The FAR is
for preflight action to review all available information. For Part 91
there is no chart requirement, just you need to remember everything
you saw on the chart. If you have the data in you glass panel, and
you have an electronic backup, whether that is an iPad or other
device, you would seem to have all the memory refreshing tools you
need.
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Since we're subscribing to the Garmin data sets loaded into our GPS's, are
those considered legal substitutes?
According to our local FSDO, electronic charts are perfectly legal. But I
didn't ask about the data loaded into the GPS.
Phil
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:38 AM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net>
wrote:
>
>
>
> How much better this world would be without Jepp...
> Just another corporation with a strong lobby.
> On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
> > doesn't it?
> >
> > If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
> > a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
> > download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
> > you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
> > to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
> > much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
> >
> > I'd bet $10 though that Jepp had some influence in the
> > decision...they've been losing out on paper subscriptions
> > and their electronic offering is overpriced, so they
> > had to squeeze the cheap data somehow.
> > Tim
> >
> > On 11/14/2011 8:02 AM, David Leikam wrote:
> >> *FAA TO CHARGE COMPANIES FOR ONLINE CHARTS, NO ACCESS FOR INDIVIDUALS
> >> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>*
> >> The days of inexpensive navigation and chart apps for your mobile
> >> devices appear to be numbered with the FAA's announcement that it will
> >> begin charging for downloads that were previously free starting April
> >> 5,
> >> 2012. A story in the December issue of our sister publication Aviation
> >> Consumer says theAeronautical Navigational Products Directorate
> >> <http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/>(Aeronav), which
> >> currently makes the latest charts and other navigational products
> >> available online for free, says it has to recover the costs associated
> >> with developing and hosting the products. That means charging fees to
> >> companies for those downloads and no longer allowing individuals access
> >> them at all. As of April 5, only those with distribution contracts with
> >> Aeronav will be able to download the data. The most noticeable impact
> >> will likely be on the small but increasingly popular industry segment
> >> (like ForeFlight and WingX) that develops flight-related apps for iPads
> >> and other consumer electronics. It will also have an impact on websites
> >> like RunwayFinder that use the data for their online products, some of
> >> which are currently available for free. How much impact isn't known
> >> because the FAA hasn't announced what it intends to charge for the
> >> data.
> >> Affected companies have been invited to a meeting Dec. 13 in Washington
> >> to hear details of the FAA's proposal and offer input to the final
> >> pricing structure and the distribution contract.More...
> >> <http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/2056-full.html#205722>
> >>
> >> Dave Leikam
> >>
> >> do not archive
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ===========
> ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> le, List Admin.
> ===========
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ===========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ===========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===========
>
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: Re: The rising cost of GA |
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I feel a little sad. There was a time (30 years ago) when Jepp offered a superior product at a competitive price. But they failed to adapt to the changing technology, and now they seem to have joined the many other companies that make money buy obtaining and maintaining monopolies.
[that's not a typo, I meant "buy", not "by"; as in, lobbying and lawyers]
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Kelly, whazt you say is true, legally. My problem with this move is
that it compromises safety when we (GA) refuse to pay higher rates to
the one or two 'sources' for charts or chart data (moving map) and fly
with outdated info. It's the same scenario with user fees.
If we already have subscriptions to chart data (foreflight, GPS data
etc.) then I see a big problem as they won't be able to compete with the
two probable companies (Garmin and Jepp) leaving a big monopoly with no
competition or price controls. I only see spiraling operating costs for
us (the consumer) since the already high subscription price will only go
higher due to the companies passing on the cost to us, the consumers.
I wrote AOPA Safety explaining my position and asked for contact info
for the members of the congressional aviation subcommittee.
I think it's a good idea for everyone else to do the same. If this
can't be killed, I see a proportionate rise in the accident rate in our
future.
Linn
On 11/14/2011 11:39 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
You have a Catch 22. You only need what you can't remember. The FAR is
for preflight action to review all available information. For Part 91
there is no chart requirement, just you need to remember everything
you saw on the chart. If you have the data in you glass panel, and
you have an electronic backup, whether that is an iPad or other
device, you would seem to have all the memory refreshing tools you
need.
snip!
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Please, no disparagement here. Remember, corporations have the same rights as individuals to influence .gov, the Supreme Court said so.
Bill "coming on board just as the free ride comes to an end" Watson
On 11/14/2011 10:50 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote: [quote]Why do I suspect that Garmin's lobbyists are marching lockstep with Jeppesen?
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:38 AM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
How much better this world would be without Jepp...
Just another corporation with a strong lobby.
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:31 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
>
> Kind of makes you wonder how hard Jeppesen lobbied for that,
> doesn't it?
>
> If it were purely a money issue, they could have charged
> a subscription fee to individuals. Now individuals can't
> download at all...so no matter which option you go with,
> you have to pay. Hopefully the cost will be small enough
> to the entities that the pricing structure doesn't change
> much, since the feds aren't allowed to "profit" from it.
|
[b]
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flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Can you share you names when you get them.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 14, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Kelly, whazt you say is true, legally. My problem with this move is that it compromises safety when we (GA) refuse to pay higher rates to the one or two 'sources' for charts or chart data (moving map) and fly with outdated info. It's the same scenario with user fees.
If we already have subscriptions to chart data (foreflight, GPS data etc.) then I see a big problem as they won't be able to compete with the two probable companies (Garmin and Jepp) leaving a big monopoly with no competition or price controls. I only see spiraling operating costs for us (the consumer) since the already high subscription price will only go higher due to the companies passing on the cost to us, the consumers.
I wrote AOPA Safety explaining my position and asked for contact info for the members of the congressional aviation subcommittee.
I think it's a good idea for everyone else to do the same. If this can't be killed, I see a proportionate rise in the accident rate in our future.
Linn
On 11/14/2011 11:39 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> You have a Catch 22. You only need what you can't remember. The FAR is
> for preflight action to review all available information. For Part 91
> there is no chart requirement, just you need to remember everything
> you saw on the chart. If you have the data in you glass panel, and
> you have an electronic backup, whether that is an iPad or other
> device, you would seem to have all the memory refreshing tools you
> need.
snip!
|
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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Sometimes I get frustrated with the people that keep asking me for
help!!! Here's the answer I got from AOPA:
Linn,
Thank you for contacting the Pilot Information Center. AOPA will be investigating this issue in the near term, initially to gather all the details, and then decide on a course of action that may include a request for members to contact their elected representatives. You may find all House and Senate aviation committee members and contact information through their respective web sites - house.gov and senate.gov.
Craig Brown
Sr. Technical Specialist
Government Affairs - Pilot Information Center
ATP/A&P/CFI
800-USA-AOPA
Basically a 'go find it yourself'. 
My reply was that they should be a little more responsive with a canned list. Since they're too busy to send me a list maybe I'm too busy to send the subcommittee an email!
Linn
On 11/14/2011 6:31 PM, Rob Kermanj wrote:
| Quote: |
Can you share you names when you get them.
Rob Kermanj
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 14, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Linn Walters<pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> Kelly, whazt you say is true, legally. My problem with this move is that it compromises safety when we (GA) refuse to pay higher rates to the one or two 'sources' for charts or chart data (moving map) and fly with outdated info. It's the same scenario with user fees.
>
> If we already have subscriptions to chart data (foreflight, GPS data etc.) then I see a big problem as they won't be able to compete with the two probable companies (Garmin and Jepp) leaving a big monopoly with no competition or price controls. I only see spiraling operating costs for us (the consumer) since the already high subscription price will only go higher due to the companies passing on the cost to us, the consumers.
>
> I wrote AOPA Safety explaining my position and asked for contact info for the members of the congressional aviation subcommittee.
> I think it's a good idea for everyone else to do the same. If this can't be killed, I see a proportionate rise in the accident rate in our future.
> Linn
> On 11/14/2011 11:39 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>
>> You have a Catch 22. You only need what you can't remember. The FAR is
>> for preflight action to review all available information. For Part 91
>> there is no chart requirement, just you need to remember everything
>> you saw on the chart. If you have the data in you glass panel, and
>> you have an electronic backup, whether that is an iPad or other
>> device, you would seem to have all the memory refreshing tools you
>> need.
> snip!
>
>
|
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jkreidler
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:48 am Post subject: Re: The rising cost of GA |
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I think the FAA has been using the revenues from paper publications to supplement the digital information. I understand they did not profit from the paper charts, but profit and covering costs are separate. Since many of us have selected digital without purchasing paper backups, this seems to be a likely outcome. With digital they no longer have a way to recover costs (in the current model).
Jason
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Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617 |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: The rising cost of GA |
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But, while you're probably correct, there is still no reason to disallow end user purchases. It could be done via the current website where they sell paper charts. Ive bought that way before so why could I not by a digital sectional myself?
Tim
On Nov 15, 2011, at 6:48 AM, "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I think the FAA has been using the revenues from paper publications to supplement the digital information. I understand they did not profit from the paper charts, but profit and covering costs are separate. Since many of us have selected digital without purchasing paper backups, this seems to be a likely outcome. With digital they no longer have a way to recover costs (in the current model).
Jason
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Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=357987#357987
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jkreidler
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: Re: The rising cost of GA |
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Yup, but like I said in the 'current model'. I fully agree...
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Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617 |
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