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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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I'm more interested in the aerodynamics. I assume if I could leave the elevators offset then it will have less drag than if I fix the loose parts.
That's what I am wondering about
Same question on the nose wheel alignment
I m not asking how to fix it. Just what happens with drag when it's fixed
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]you'll need a special oversized bolt for your elevator. the one you have is crowding itself out. Getting a good angle on the ream is a mofo. it's tempting to bend stuff out of the way. the bolt you need ends in -19x
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Headliner
I removed 4-lbs of foam. The factory couldn't find the right kind of light weight
Foam so they used thick heavy stuff. I want to go back light
Thanks
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Gary Vogt <[url=mailto:teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com]teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)[/url]> wrote:
[url=http:/ Bookstore <a rel=][/url]
[url=http:/ Bookstore <a rel=][/url]
[url=http:/ Bookstore <a rel=][/url]
[url=http:/ Bookstore <a rel=][/url]
[url=http:/ Bookstore <a rel=] [/url]
[b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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Thing is the parts are tight. On the ground the elevator is in neutral alignment. That is both halves match. It's in the air where they differ. There's some play and there is an approved fix. No parts are going to fall off
To the air both halves are neutral. That assumption says the aerodynamic forces "like" the halves to rest unevenly. If the elevator halves are forced backbyo neutral it seems to me that would create more drag. What say you, mote drag or not?
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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The elevator tips need to be aligned.
The nose gear: You have no control over that. It will find a neutral pressure.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: loose parts and drag
I'm more interested in the aerodynamics. I assume if I could leave the elevators offset then it will have less drag than if I fix the loose parts.
That's what I am wondering about
Same question on the nose wheel alignment
I m not asking how to fix it. Just what happens with drag when it's fixed
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 17, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]you'll need a special oversized bolt for your elevator. the one you have is crowding itself out. Getting a good angle on the ream is a mofo. it's tempting to bend stuff out of the way. the bolt you need ends in -19x
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Headliner
I removed 4-lbs of foam. The factory couldn't find the right kind of light weight
Foam so they used thick heavy stuff. I want to go back light
Thanks
Ned
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 17, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Gary Vogt < (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
http://www.matro====================
[b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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Hold on firmly to the trim tabs, one in each hand. Try rocking them back and forth with enough pressure to force the elevator to move. Conversely, hold on to the elevator tip and try to force it to move. Ideally, have someone with their (there, if you went to school in Utah) hands firmly around the collar where the bolt is with one finger wrapped around the elevator torque tube while you try to move the elevator past up or down. They'll be able to feel a small movement in the joint.
It's hard for me to believe they are really different in the air while straight on the ground. Maybe it's an optical illusion.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: loose parts and drag
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
Thing is the parts are tight. On the ground the elevator is in neutral alignment. That is both halves match. It's in the air where they differ. There's some play and there is an approved fix. No parts are going to fall off
To the air both halves are neutral. That assumption says the aerodynamic forces "like" the halves to rest unevenly. If the elevator halves are forced backbyo neutral it seems to me that would creatAeroElectric www.rget="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.combsp; -Matt Dralle, the = - List Contribution Web Site &nbs="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" =======
[quote][b]
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n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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Hey Ned, I can help you play with your elevator this weekend.
Brock
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 9:04 PM CST Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | Hold on firmly to the trim tabs, one in each hand. Try rocking them back and forth with enough pressure to force the elevator to move. Conversely, hold on to the elevator tip and try to force it to move. Ideally, have someone with their (there, if you went to school in Utah) hands firmly around the collar where the bolt is with one finger wrapped around the elevator torque tube while you try to move the elevator past up or down. They'll be able to feel a small movement in the joint.
It's hard for me to believe they are really different in the air while straight on the ground. Maybe it's an optical illusion.
________________________________
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: loose parts and drag
Thing is the parts are tight. On the ground the elevator is in neutral alignment. That is both halves match. It's in the air where they differ. There's some play and there is an approved fix. No parts are going to fall off
To the air both halves are neutral. That assumption says the aerodynamic forces "like" the halves to rest unevenly. If the elevator halves are forced backbyo neutral it seems to me that would create more drag. What say you, mote drag or n==
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bhauskne(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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"Ideally, have someone with their (there, if you went to school in Utah) hands firmly around the collar..."
And where did YOU go to school? "Ideally have someone with his or her hands..."
There, there...I know it hurts...
Brian Hausknecht
bhauskne(at)gmail.com
www.brianflys.net
www.brianflys.com
--
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bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:54 am Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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Ned asks:The real question is if the elevator halves are mechanically forced to be symmetric will that alignment cause more drag thus loss in speed?
The question has had me thinking, and this is gonna be a long response that even Ned and Gary may not wish to endure, but here goes.
These are some of my assumptions: We have three horizontal surfaces on our empenage, 1) Horizontal stabilizer (HS) which is fixed, 2) elevator (EL) which moves up and down, and 3)trim tab (TT)which moves in the same direction but further than the EL.
The cleanest configuration of those three surfaces is when they are all aligned in the same plane. As soon as the EL moves all three surfaces are in their own plane and being this close together, drag is induced. We also know that there is only one airspeed that will nail that perfect alignment for any given aircraft and its own weight and bal configuration at that moment.
Now, if our aircraft were being towed by a long string in clear air, yes, having both elevator tips aligned with the leading edge of the HS would be the cleanest configuration. We also know that since we are being dragged along in clean air in a typical nose heavy W&B situation that the slower we are moving the more the tail has to push down to compensate, and the faster we are moving the less it has to, but we want each side to push down the with same amount of force as the other.
But Ned has observed that we know the prop wash corkscrews around the fuselage, striking the pilot side HS from the bottom and the other side from the top.
This fact means that if we are mechanically symmetrical, the pilot side of the HS has to push down more than its share since it is being lifted by the prop wash, while the co-pilot's side has to do less of the pushing, and therein we have induced drag, because we have ignored the fact that the apparent wind on one side is arriving at a slightly different angle of attack than what the other side is seeing.
..................
Now I do not know what the difference is back there at any high speed strait and level configuration. But it would be my opinion that to simply provide a different angle of attack for the elevator on one side would find us sacrificing the loss of that drag, for the increase from having those three surfaces out of plane with each other. I guess what I am suggesting is that to truly mitigate this prop-wash effect, one would need to adjust the angle of attack of the HS on the pilots side to be lower than the angle of attack on the co-pilot's side HS.
...............
Final thoughts: I've never met anyone who can picture air molecules in his mind moving about an airframe the way Gary can. And I am confident that if the picture my mind's eye is seeing is out of whack, he will grin really big and very patiently explain to me where I got off the bus.
Bob Hodo
one pretty quick cheetah [quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: loose parts and drag |
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What Bob says has merit. How much? I don't know. A short while back I found computer simulations on the internet that showed areas of high and low pressure in flight, with a propeller. As I recall, most of the pressures were uniform by the time it got to the tail.
One way to test it would be to tape tufts of yarn onto the elevator tips and watch. If they aren't straight back, I'd be surprised.
From: Bob Hodo <bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: loose parts and drag
Ned asks:The real question is if the elevator halves are mechanically forced to be symmetric will that alignment cause more drag thus loss in speed?
The question has had me thinking, and this is gonna be a long response that even Ned and Gary may not wish to endure, but here goes.
These are some of my assumptions: We have three horizontal surfaces on our empenage, 1) Horizontal stabilizer (HS) which is fixed, 2) elevator (EL) which moves up and down, and 3)trim tab (TT)which moves in the same direction but further than the EL.
The cleanest configuration of those three surfaces is when they are all aligned in the same plane. As soon as the EL moves all three surfaces are in their own plane and being this close together, drag is induced. We also know that there is only one airspeed that will nail that perfect alignment for any given aircraft and its own weight and bal configuration at that moment.
Now, if our aircraft were being towed by a long string in clear air, yes, having both elevator tips aligned with the leading edge of the HS would be the cleanest configuration. We also know that since we are being dragged along in clean air in a typical nose heavy W&B situation that the slower we are moving the more the tail has to push down to compensate, and the faster we are moving the less it has to, but we want each side to push down the with same amount of force as the other.
But Ned has observed that we know the prop wash corkscrews around the fuselage, striking the pilot side HS from the bottom and the other side from the top.
This fact means that if we are mechanically symmetrical, the pilot side of the HS has to push down more than its share since it is being lifted by the prop wash, while the co-pilot's side has to do less of the pushing, and therein we have induced drag, because we have ignored the fact that the apparent wind on one side is arriving at a slightly different angle of attack than what the other side is seeing.
..................
Now I do not know what the difference is back there at any high speed strait and level configuration. But it would be my opinion that to simply provide a different angle of attack for the elevator on one side would find us sacrificing the loss of that drag, for the increase from having those three surfaces out of plane with each other. I guess what I am suggesting is that to truly mitigate this prop-wash effect, one would need to adjust the angle of attack of the HS on the pilots side to be lower than the angle of attack on the co-pilot's side HS.
...............
Final thoughts: I've never met anyone who can picture air molecules in his mind moving about an airframe the way Gary can. And I am confident that if the picture my mind's eye is seeing is out of whack, he will grin really big and very patiently explain to me where I got off the bus.
Bob Hodo
one pretty quick cheetah | Quote: | | wollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.builders --> |
[quote][b]
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