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Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

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Tom Stephens

Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Arnold, CA

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

How many of you have/had FireFly's that were actually under 254?



How did you do it?



What motor did you use?



Is this possible?



Tom

_________________
Tom Stephens
www.planeaday.com

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

I did...built to plans except for extra rib braceing..done with aluminum angle...came in at 252 dry.  and I had alot of paint on it most wouldnt have.. you might have seen it here known as the Flagfly. AND..that was with full enclosure windscreen BYW..

wasnt long though before I added bigger tires and wheels and brakes and various other things. I had  trouble with the go-kart brakes.. 



If you convert to single streamlined struts BTW...you will save weight over plans built, and gain much performance. I used aluminum streamlined tubing from Wicks. AS for the size..I cant remember but it was the same size as a Challenger uses...it will save several lbs over the twin cromemoly struts.



I believe a Fly could be built under 246 or 247 pretty easy tho...and with a 447....

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

AC 103-7 be used to show compliance for the FF 103 status.  If you change to

single struts, the FF top speed will be too fast according to 103-7.

Some would say this is not something I am going to worry about.  



I received a call from the attorney of a FF owner who was having is private

license revoked because he was flying his FF illegally.  A neighbor had

complained about his flying operations and the FAA became involved and

determined he did not have a legal UL and therefore he was flying an

unregistered aircraft.  Because he had private license, they revoked that

too along with shutting down his unregistered airstrip.  The attorney called

me because he was trying to get his clients private reinstated.  He wanted

to know if it could be proven that the FF was a legal ul.  If it could be

proven then his client could get his license back.  I said sure AC 103-7

shows it to be legal as far as stall speed and top speeds are concerned.

Weight of course would need to be determined by weighing.  The attorney said

there was a little glitch because the FF had only one strut on each side

... was there any other way to prove it was a legal ul.  I said

unfortunately no, AC 103-7 will not work if the FF only has one strut.  With

a 447 the FF has a higher top speed than 63 mph, so a speed test cannot be

used.  So the guy was out of his license and out of options.

Dennis



--

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

Yup..definately will fly faster than 63...alot faster...heck I used to cruise at  60 to 65 at 4800 to 5000 rpms.. course..I had the prop set for top end.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:04 pm Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

moral of the story:  keep on good terms with your neighbors.

I doubt they could "shut down his illegal airstrip" unless they can remove every vacant

hayfield in the USA from the face of the earth.  In spite of his difficulties this guy should still be able to fly an obviously

legal ultralight craft any time in the future.  Skating on thin ice with a marginally 103 plane would not be an option.

-once again, stay away from grouchy neighbors.



I have to put up with the war zone noise every deer hunting season too but figure it only lasts a few weeks.

BB

MkIII,  suzuki

"if it's the king's forest that makes 'em the king's deer"



do not archive



On 25, Nov 2011, at 5:38 PM, Dennis Souder wrote:



[quote] 

 

 AC 103-7 be used to show compliance for the FF 103 status.  If you change to

 single struts, the FF top speed will be too fast according to 103-7.

 Some would say this is not something I am going to worry about.  

 

 I received a call from the attorney of a FF owner who was having is private

 license revoked because he was flying his FF illegally.  A neighbor had

 complained about his flying operations and the FAA became involved and

 determined he did not have a legal UL and therefore he was flying an

 unregistered aircraft.  Because he had private license, they revoked that

 too along with shutting down his unregistered airstrip.  The attorney called

 me because he was trying to get his clients private reinstated.  He wanted

 to know if it could be proven that the FF was a legal ul.  If it could be

 proven then his client could get his license back.  I said sure AC 103-7

 shows it to be legal as far as stall speed and top speeds are concerned.

 Weight of course would need to be determined by weighing.  The attorney said

 there was a little glitch because the FF had only one strut on each side

 .... was there any other way to prove it was a legal ul.  I said

 unfortunately no, AC 103-7 will not work if the FF only has one strut.  With

 a 447 the FF has a higher top speed than 63 mph, so a speed test cannot be

 used.  So the guy was out of his license and out of options.

 Dennis

 

 --

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

Concerning an illegal airport - here is the FAR that governs airports - CFR 114 ~ 157judge for yourself whether or not any given airport is "illegal."



§ 157.1   Applicability.



This part applies to persons proposing to construct, alter, activate, or deactivate a civil or joint-use (civil/military) airport or to alter the status or use of such an airport. Requirements for persons to notify the Administrator concerning certain airport activities are prescribed in this part. This part does not apply to projects involving:



(a) An airport subject to conditions of a Federal agreement that requires an approved current airport layout plan to be on file with the Federal Aviation Administration; or



(b) An airport at which flight operations will be conducted under visual flight rules (VFR) and which is used or intended to be used for a period of less than 30 consecutive days with no more than 10 operations per day.



(c) The intermittent use of a site that is not an established airport, which is used or intended to be used for less than one year and at which flight operations will be conducted only under VFR. For the purposes of this part, intermittent use of a site means:



(1) The site is used or is intended to be used for no more than 3 days in any one week; and



(2) No more than 10 operations will be conducted in any one day at that site.



§ 157.2   Definition of terms.



For the purpose of this part:



Airport means any airport, heliport, helistop, vertiport, gliderport, seaplane base, ultralight flightpark, manned balloon launching facility, or other aircraft landing or takeoff area.



Heliport means any landing or takeoff area intended for use by helicopters or other rotary wing type aircraft capable of vertical takeoff and landing profiles.



Private use means available for use by the owner only or by the owner and other persons authorized by the owner.



Private use of public lands means that the landing and takeoff area of the proposed airport is publicly owned and the proponent is a non-government entity, regardless of whether that landing and takeoff area is on land or on water and whether the controlling entity be local, State, or Federal Government.



Public use means available for use by the general public without a requirement for prior approval of the owner or operator.



Traffic pattern means the traffic flow that is prescribed for aircraft landing or taking off from an airport, including departure and arrival procedures utilized within a 5-mile radius of the airport for ingress, egress, and noise abatement.



§ 157.3   Projects requiring notice.



Each person who intends to do any of the following shall notify the Administrator in the manner prescribed in §157.5:



(a) Construct or otherwise establish a new airport or activate an airport.



(b) Construct, realign, alter, or activate any runway or other aircraft landing or takeoff area of an airport.



(c) Deactivate, discontinue using, or abandon an airport or any landing or takeoff area of an airport for a period of one year or more.



(d) Construct, realign, alter, activate, deactivate, abandon, or discontinue using a taxiway associated with a landing or takeoff area on a public-use airport.



(e) Change the status of an airport from private use to public use or from public use to another status.



(f) Change any traffic pattern or traffic pattern altitude or direction.



(g) Change status from IFR to VFR or VFR to IFR.



§ 157.5   Notice of intent.



(a) Notice shall be submitted on FAA Form 7480–1, copies of which may be obtained from an FAA Airport District/Field Office or Regional Office, to one of those offices and shall be submitted at least—



(1) In the cases prescribed in paragraphs (a) through (d) of §157.3, 90 days in advance of the day that work is to begin; or



(2) In the cases prescribed in paragraphs (e) through (g) of §157.3, 90 days in advance of the planned implementation date.



(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section—



(1) In an emergency involving essential public service, public health, or public safety or when the delay arising from the 90-day advance notice requirement would result in an unreasonable hardship, a proponent may provide notice to the appropriate FAA Airport District/Field Office or Regional Office by telephone or other expeditious means as soon as practicable in lieu of submitting FAA Form 7480–1. However, the proponent shall provide full notice, through the submission of FAA Form 7480–1, when otherwise requested or required by the FAA.



(2) notice concerning the deactivation, discontinued use, or abandonment of an airport, an airport landing or takeoff area, or associated taxiway may be submitted by letter. Prior notice is not required; except that a 30-day prior notice is required when an established instrument approach procedure is involved or when the affected property is subject to any agreement with the United States requiring that it be maintained and operated as a public-use airport.



§ 157.7   FAA determinations.



(a) The FAA will conduct an aeronautical study of an airport proposal and, after consultations with interested persons, as appropriate, issue a determination to the proponent and advise those concerned of the FAA determination. The FAA will consider matters such as the effects the proposed action would have on existing or contemplated traffic patterns of neighboring airports; the effects the proposed action would have on the existing airspace structure and projected programs of the FAA; and the effects that existing or proposed manmade objects (on file with the FAA) and natural objects within the affected area would have on the airport proposal. While determinations consider the effects of the proposed action on the safe and efficient use of airspace by aircraft and the safety of persons and property on the ground, the determinations are only advisory. Except for an objectionable determination, each determination will contain a determination-void date to facilitate efficient planning of the use of the navigable airspace. A determination does not relieve the proponent of responsibility for compliance with any local law, ordinance or regulation, or state or other Federal regulation. Aeronautical studies and determinations will not consider environmental or land use compatibility impacts.



(b) An airport determination issued under this part will be one of the following:



(1) No objection.



(2) Conditional. A conditional determination will identify the objectionable aspects of a project or action and specify the conditions which must be met and sustained to preclude an objectionable determination.



(3) Objectionable. An objectionable determination will specify the FAA's reasons for issuing such a determination.



(c) Determination void date. All work or action for which notice is required by this sub-part must be completed by the determination void date. Unless otherwise extended, revised, or terminated, an FAA determination becomes invalid on the day specified as the determination void date. Interested persons may, at least 15 days in advance of the determination void date, petition the FAA official who issued the determination to:



(1) Revise the determination based on new facts that change the basis on which it was made; or



(2) Extend the determination void date. Determinations will be furnished to the proponent, aviation officials of the state concerned, and, when appropriate, local political bodies and other interested persons.



§ 157.9   Notice of completion.



Within 15 days after completion of any airport project covered by this part, the proponent of such project shall notify the FAA Airport District Office or Regional Office by submission of FAA Form 5010–5 or by letter. A copy of FAA Form 5010–5 will be provided with the FAA determination.

Since this is quite long - Do Not Archive

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

I'm quite happy to not have read such gibberish.   -IRS is bad enough.



I'm also quite content to have my little grass strip NOT be an airport.   Merely my personal entrance and exit

to my property.  -----for the last 39 years,



BB

do not archive



On 25, Nov 2011, at 10:21 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Concerning an illegal airport - here is the FAR that governs airports - CFR 114 ~ 157judge for yourself whether or not any given airport is "illegal."

 

 § 157.1   Applicability.

 

 This part applies to persons proposing to construct, alter, activate, or deactivate a civil or joint-use (civil/military) airport or to alter the status or use of such an airport. Requirements for persons to notify the Administrator concerning certain airport activities are prescribed in this part. This part does not apply to projects involving:

 

 (a) An airport subject to conditions of a Federal agreement that requires an approved current airport layout plan to be on file with the Federal Aviation Administration; or

 

 (b) An airport at which flight operations will be conducted under visual flight rules (VFR) and which is used or intended to be used for a period of less than 30 consecutive days with no more than 10 operations per day.

 

 (c) The intermittent use of a site that is not an established airport, which is used or intended to be used for less than one year and at which flight operations will be conducted only under VFR. For the purposes of this part, intermittent use of a site means:

 

 (1) The site is used or is intended to be used for no more than 3 days in any one week; and

 

 (2) No more than 10 operations will be conducted in any one day at that site.

 

 § 157.2   Definition of terms.

 

 For the purpose of this part:

 

 Airport means any airport, heliport, helistop, vertiport, gliderport, seaplane base, ultralight flightpark, manned balloon launching facility, or other aircraft landing or takeoff area.

 

 Heliport means any landing or takeoff area intended for use by helicopters or other rotary wing type aircraft capable of vertical takeoff and landing profiles.

 

 Private use means available for use by the owner only or by the owner and other persons authorized by the owner.

 

 Private use of public lands means that the landing and takeoff area of the proposed airport is publicly owned and the proponent is a non-government entity, regardless of whether that landing and takeoff area is on land or on water and whether the controlling entity be local, State, or Federal Government.

 

 Public use means available for use by the general public without a requirement for prior approval of the owner or operator.

 

 Traffic pattern means the traffic flow that is prescribed for aircraft landing or taking off from an airport, including departure and arrival procedures utilized within a 5-mile radius of the airport for ingress, egress, and noise abatement.

 

 § 157.3   Projects requiring notice.

 

 Each person who intends to do any of the following shall notify the Administrator in the manner prescribed in §157.5:

 

 (a) Construct or otherwise establish a new airport or activate an airport.

 

 (b) Construct, realign, alter, or activate any runway or other aircraft landing or takeoff area of an airport.

 

 (c) Deactivate, discontinue using, or abandon an airport or any landing or takeoff area of an airport for a period of one year or more.

 

 (d) Construct, realign, alter, activate, deactivate, abandon, or discontinue using a taxiway associated with a landing or takeoff area on a public-use airport.

 

 (e) Change the status of an airport from private use to public use or from public use to another status.

 

 (f) Change any traffic pattern or traffic pattern altitude or direction.

 

 (g) Change status from IFR to VFR or VFR to IFR.

 

 § 157.5   Notice of intent.

 

 (a) Notice shall be submitted on FAA Form 7480–1, copies of which may be obtained from an FAA Airport District/Field Office or Regional Office, to one of those offices and shall be submitted at least—

 

 (1) In the cases prescribed in paragraphs (a) through (d) of §157.3, 90 days in advance of the day that work is to begin; or

 

 (2) In the cases prescribed in paragraphs (e) through (g) of §157.3, 90 days in advance of the planned implementation date.

 

 (b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section—

 

 (1) In an emergency involving essential public service, public health, or public safety or when the delay arising from the 90-day advance notice requirement would result in an unreasonable hardship, a proponent may provide notice to the appropriate FAA Airport District/Field Office or Regional Office by telephone or other expeditious means as soon as practicable in lieu of submitting FAA Form 7480–1. However, the proponent shall provide full notice, through the submission of FAA Form 7480–1, when otherwise requested or required by the FAA.

 

 (2) notice concerning the deactivation, discontinued use, or abandonment of an airport, an airport landing or takeoff area, or associated taxiway may be submitted by letter. Prior notice is not required; except that a 30-day prior notice is required when an established instrument approach procedure is involved or when the affected property is subject to any agreement with the United States requiring that it be maintained and operated as a public-use airport.

 

 § 157.7   FAA determinations.

 

 (a) The FAA will conduct an aeronautical study of an airport proposal and, after consultations with interested persons, as appropriate, issue a determination to the proponent and advise those concerned of the FAA determination. The FAA will consider matters such as the effects the proposed action would have on existing or contemplated traffic patterns of neighboring airports; the effects the proposed action would have on the existing airspace structure and projected programs of the FAA; and the effects that existing or proposed manmade objects (on file with the FAA) and natural objects within the affected area would have on the airport proposal. While determinations consider the effects of the proposed action on the safe and efficient use of airspace by aircraft and the safety of persons and property on the ground, the determinations are only advisory. Except for an objectionable determination, each determination will contain a determination-void date to facilitate efficient!

  planning of the use of the navigable airspace. A determination does not relieve the proponent of responsibility for compliance with any local law, ordinance or regulation, or state or other Federal regulation. Aeronautical studies and determinations will not consider environmental or land use compatibility impacts.

 

 (b) An airport determination issued under this part will be one of the following:

 

 (1) No objection.

 

 (2) Conditional. A conditional determination will identify the objectionable aspects of a project or action and specify the conditions which must be met and sustained to preclude an objectionable determination.

 

 (3) Objectionable. An objectionable determination will specify the FAA's reasons for issuing such a determination.

 

 (c) Determination void date. All work or action for which notice is required by this sub-part must be completed by the determination void date. Unless otherwise extended, revised, or terminated, an FAA determination becomes invalid on the day specified as the determination void date. Interested persons may, at least 15 days in advance of the determination void date, petition the FAA official who issued the determination to:

 

 (1) Revise the determination based on new facts that change the basis on which it was made; or

 

 (2) Extend the determination void date. Determinations will be furnished to the proponent, aviation officials of the state concerned, and, when appropriate, local political bodies and other interested persons.

 

 § 157.9   Notice of completion.

 

 Within 15 days after completion of any airport project covered by this part, the proponent of such project shall notify the FAA Airport District Office or Regional Office by submission of FAA Form 5010–5 or by letter. A copy of FAA Form 5010–5 will be provided with the FAA determination.

 

 

 Since this is quite long - Do Not Archive

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 

 Hebrews 11:1

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359271#359271

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

I'm also quite content to have my little grass strip NOT be

an airport.   Merely my personal entrance and exit

to my property.  -----for the last 39 years,



BB

 



Me too!



I am the regulator.  



For the last 27 years.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  I'm quite happy to not have read such gibberish.   -IRS is bad enough.



I'm also quite content to have my little grass strip NOT be an airport.   Merely my personal entrance and exit

to my property.  -----for the last 39 years,



BB

	




Gibberish you say? Reminds me of my nephew who refuses to read - and a man who won't read is no better off than a man who can't read - but I digress...



Back in 1983 when I first started flying my Hummer out of the cow pasture behind me, I registered the airstrip with the FAA based on this FAR, and I still have the original paperwork, and the copies of the update documents that the FAA sends me every couple of years. Which means that if any local curmudgeon tries to get my airport declared illegal, or if the city of Kingsport sneaks out at 2 AM and extends the city limit boundaries a bit further (and landing strips are illegal inside city limits) then I have 28 years of legal precedent demonstrating that I have a completely legal airport.



Know the regs and use them for your benefit. Bureaucrats are less of a threat when you can outflank them with their own rules.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

legal as far as stall speed and top speeds are concerned>>



You have a limiting top speed?  Come to Merrie England. We may ha a few 

hoops to go through but there are several types flying here with top speeds 

well into the hundreds. The plane in which I used to have a partnership used 

to CRUISE at 100mph..



Cheers



Pat

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:35 am Post subject: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

Thanks, I think I will pass.

 Larry

 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the forwarding history,  which includes my email address.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

Tom Stephens

Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 11
Location: Arnold, CA

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Firefly under 254 - How did you do it?

 	  Don G wrote: 	
		  I believe a Fly could be built under 246 or 247 pretty easy tho...and with a 447.... 	




Don,



Thanks for the reply!  So you think pretty easy with a 447?  How?  Done per plans?



Tom

_________________
Tom Stephens
www.planeaday.com

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