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Fuel Senders

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rogwibb

Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Atwater Ca.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: Fuel Senders

I am about at the point of cutting holes in my wing tanks to install the Fuel Tank Senders but was wondering if anyone is running with the EIS fuel flow sensor only and eliminating the mechanical fuel senders in the tanks altogether.  I know redundancy is best, but simple and light is also good.  Any wisdom is much appreciated.

Roger

Atwater, Ca.

701 Kit building 60%

 [quote][b]

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: Fuel Senders

Roger, admittedly the Zenith specified sending units are pretty much useless.  Mine very rarely show an accurate fuel level.  The good news is that they do not leak. Because of the gauge inaccuracies I installed the Flight Data Systems fuel flow gauge and EI Redcube flow transducer, it gives flow, allows you to program startup fuel level, fuel used, and it interfaces with my GPS to give me fuel required to next waypoint, estimated reserve, and MPG.

  

 The bad news is that, at least here in Canada, fuel gauges for each tank are manditory.  Regardless, I think that having some sort of actual vs theoretical fuel level reading is of some benifit.  I would have pulled my senders and figured out what was going on with them but I am concerned that my so far bone dry tanks would likely start leaking after the 'repair'.

  

 Doug MacDonald

 CH-701 from scratch

 NW Ontario, Canada

  

 Do Not Archive

 



   

From: Roger Wibbels <rogwibb(at)yahoo.com>

To: "zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com" <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com> 

Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:10:23 PM

Subject: Fuel Senders



    I am about at the point of cutting holes in my wing tanks to install the Fuel Tank Senders but was wondering if anyone is running with the EIS fuel flow sensor only and eliminating the mechanical fuel senders in the tanks altogether.  I know redundancy is best, but simple and light is also good.  Any wisdom is much appreciated.

 



 Roger

 Atwater, Ca.

 701 Kit building 60%



 [quote][b]

koxxy

Joined: 19 Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Location: Beaverton, OR

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: Fuel Senders

I'm not building yet, so this is more of a question than a suggestion:

Would sight gauges work as a backup to fuel flow meters? Could a hose be tee'd off the drain fitting, looped back to the top of the tank? Of course, the clear hose section would have to be inside the cabin (not good in a serious crash), and more work / chance for screwup during wing folding / removal, but it is simple and requires no power. Would that meet the Canadian requirements?

 Martin



On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:17 AM, John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com (john.marzulli(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] My senders on the Dynon give what I think are reasonable values in level flight, but for climb or descent the numbers are WAY off. I also did have a small amount of leaking from the side mounted senders when the fuel was fuel, but I was able to resolve that with more sealant.

  

If I were to do it again, I would seriously investigate top mounted capacitance based senders,

John Marzulli



http://MarzulliPhoto.net/

  http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

 



On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 6:10 AM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Roger, admittedly the Zenith specified sending units are pretty much useless.  Mine very rarely show an accurate fuel level.  The good news is that they do not leak. Because of the gauge inaccuracies I installed the Flight Data Systems fuel flow gauge and EI Redcube flow transducer, it gives flow, allows you to program startup fuel level, fuel used, and it interfaces with my GPS to give me fuel required to next waypoint, estimated reserve, and MPG.

    

 The bad news is that, at least here in Canada, fuel gauges for each tank are manditory.  Regardless, I think that having some sort of actual vs theoretical fuel level reading is of some benifit.  I would have pulled my senders and figured out what was going on with them but I am concerned that my so far bone dry tanks would likely start leaking after the 'repair'.

    

 Doug MacDonald

 CH-701 from scratch

 NW Ontario, Canada

  

 Do Not Archive

 



     

From: Roger Wibbels <rogwibb(at)yahoo.com (rogwibb(at)yahoo.com)>

To: "zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)" <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com (zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com)> 

  Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:10:23 PM

Subject: Fuel Senders



    I am about at the point of cutting holes in my wing tanks to install the Fuel Tank Senders but was wondering if anyone is running with the EIS fuel flow sensor only and eliminating the mechanical fuel senders in the tanks altogether.  I know redundancy is best, but simple and light is also good.  Any wisdom is much appreciated.

   



 Roger

 Atwater, Ca.

 701 Kit building 60%



  	  Quote: 	
		  



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.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

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[b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: Fuel Senders

A flow meter will only tell you about fuel going into the engine. It won't

tell you about fuel leaving the system in other ways:



- being sucked overboard because you left the cap off or mis-plumbed a vent

- stuck drains

- leaks



It is a truism that the fuel gauges are the least accurate gauges in a

plane. But they can tell you that you are about to take off without fuel

(although so can dipping the tanks). And they can tell you about uneven

levels when you draw from both tanks (common with the factory plumbing

design on the 701).



-- Craig

rogwibb

Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Atwater Ca.

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: fuel senders

I know, but I don't particularly want to cut holes in perfectly good tanks.  I probably will go ahead and bite the bullet, but I will put the senders on top of the tanks and not the sides.  Was looking at the capacitance senders, and they look a little tall to fit on top.

Roger

 [quote][b]

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: Fuel Senders

In theory, hose type sight gauges would be ideal.  Unfortunately, with the tapered wing root and how the wing fits against the upper door frame on the 701, there really isn't enough vertical height to be able to install hose type sight gauges.  A better option might be to rig up a direct mechanical float system similar to what is used in the Citabria.  The main problem with the mechanical system would again be how the wing fits up against the upper door frame and the distance from the root rib to the fuel tank.  Perhaps a plexi window in the tapered top panel that could be viewed through the top window of the cabin might work.

 

Anyway, as I said, I'll be the first to admit that the float style fuel senders that Zenith sells are pretty much  useless.  I highly recommend some sort of fuel fow computer.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 from scratch

NW Ontario, Canada

 

Do Not Archive

     

  From: Martin Koxxy <martinkoxxy(at)gmail.com>

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:37:16 AM

 Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Fuel  Senders

  

I'm not building yet, so this is more of a question than a suggestion:

Would sight gauges work as a backup to fuel flow meters? Could a hose be tee'd off the drain fitting, looped back to the top of the tank? Of course, the clear hose section would have to be inside the cabin (not good in a serious crash), and more work / chance for screwup during wing folding / removal, but it is simple and requires no power. Would that meet the Canadian requirements?

 Martin



 



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: Fuel Senders

FWIW..... The VDO fuel gauges and senders supplied with the 801 kit back in 2001 work surprising well.... I would give them a 9 out of a possible 10 in reliability and accuracy. I also run a JPI 450 fuel totalizer and between the two measuring devices I am 100% confident in my fuel system. YMMV 



Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

ruruny(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: Fuel Senders

Roger,

  

 

  I have 4 VDO gauges and the resistance senders installed that Zenith provided.

  They are top mounted on my 4 tanks. This was how Zenith used to do it. You will

  have to modify the sender and you can see pics on 701builder.com for that. They work well and 

  do not leak. The gauges have worked well also for me. I modifed my fuel caps with tubing that

  faces the wind for vents. I once had a restriction and the fuel gauges showed me one tank was

  feeding. I also have a GRT EIS 4000 with fuel flow and is what I use primarily for fuel indication.

  It has to be calibrated over your first flights but works extremely well once done.

  The EIS only knows what you tell it though and if you fuel up and don't tell it that you did,  you might

  get a startling low fuel alarm. But a glance at the gauges lets you see there is no problem and what

  you did wrong. Don't ask how I know this. I would install both. A bit more work and some space on 

  your panel but will be alot harder to do later. Your tanks will still be perfectly good after you do this.

  

 

  Brian

  [quote][b]

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Senders

The capacitance gages will show different from auto fuel to 100LL. Apparently

 there is different resistance between the two fuels. I had this experience a few years ago, maybe they have solved the problem on newer units.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

Dan Wilde

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 34

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: Fuel Senders

On 11/21/2011 10:59 AM, John Marzulli wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		         I would gladly take a difference in readings between fuel         types over the values flopping all over the place and having to         cut a hole in the side of a tank.

                John Marzulli-============================================================           

     	
     

     I was worried about putting a hole in the side of my fuel tank     also.  However I followed the plans and 4 years later have had no     leaks.  As far as the accuracy of the reading, the important reading     is valid.  When the gauge starts falling close to the empty mark,     fill up or become a glider.

     

     Dan Wilde

      [quote][b]

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