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Primer Kit Installed
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Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

503 Rotax Kolb Firestar

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_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Primer Kit Installed

Hi Dennis,



Was your 503 hard to start?



Does it also have a choke?



Thanks,

David d.

_________________
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Was your 503 hard to start?



Does it also have a choke?



Thanks,

David d.

 

David D/Kolbers:



Don't think the 503 has choke, but an enricher.



The enricher does primarily the same thing a primer does, shoots a rich load

of fuel into the intake.



There is an enricher jet and an enricher well built into the float bowl of

the Bing carb.  With the throttle closed and enricher pulled full on, the

idle circuit is bypassed.  As soon as the engine turns over, the contents of

the enricher well are sucked into the engine and the engine will operate at

a richer mixture through the enricher jet.  If the throttle is not closed,

the charge in the enricher well will not be sucked into the engine.



If you don't read the operators manual and use the proper procedure the 503

will be difficult to start without a primer in cold weather.  However, do it

correctly, and she will crank every time.



Bing uses the same basic enricher system for all the Rotax two strokes and

four strokes.



Personally, I don't want any fuel lines routed into the cockpit.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

If you don't read the operators manual and use the proper procedure the 503

will be difficult to start without a primer in cold weather.  However, do it

correctly, and she will crank every time.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


	


another thing that helps in cold weather.    I pull the enrichener and close 

the throttle,,,,  then when I do a walk around,,,  I hand  prop a few 

blades...  that will empty the enrichener bowl into the manifold and 

cylinders.   when I get in and start the engine,,,  I get a second burst of 

fuel,  and with everything primed,  it starts up extremely quick.   the 

other thing that helps is make sure the plugs are gaped properly.



boyd

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:27 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

another thing that helps in cold weather.    I pull the enrichener and close



the throttle,,,,  then when I do a walk around,,,  I hand  prop a few

blades...  that will empty the enrichener bowl into the manifold and 

cylinders.   when I get in and start the engine,,,  I get a second burst of 

fuel,  and with everything primed,  it starts up extremely quick.   the 

other thing that helps is make sure the plugs are gaped properly.



boyd 

 



Boyd Y/Kolbers:



That is a good idea.  Glad you shared that with us.



On my 912ULS, if I have a problem starting in cold weather, and so far I

have not had a problem starting with the enricher well below freezing, I

could wait a few seconds with the electric boost pump on to refill the bowl

and the enricher well, then hit it again to attempt to start.



It is better to go to close with the spark plug gap than what the book calls

for, or to wide.  The 912ULS calls for .028".  I gap for .020 to .025".  If

the gap gets too big, it will not fire across them at start up, although it

will run just fine if you luck up and get it started.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama - 28F and dropping.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

another thing that helps in cold weather.    I pull the enrichener and close



the throttle,,,,  then when I do a walk around,,,  I hand  prop a few

blades...  that will empty the enrichener bowl into the manifold and

cylinders.   when I get in and start the engine,,,  I get a second burst of

fuel,  and with everything primed,  it starts up extremely quick.   the

other thing that helps is make sure the plugs are gaped properly.



boyd

maybe I should explain,,, when I say I pull a few blades...   make sure the 

ignition switches are off,,,  I stand behind the prop arc,  then I put my 

left hand on the descending blade, and my right hand on the ascending 

blade,,,  and when I pull it through I do it as quickly as I can,,,  I 

usually get 3 and sometimes 4 compression per pull.    I have used this 

method to start the engine when the battery was dead.



boyd y

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

my firestar with the 503 now starts very good with a pull starter...some  people convinced me to do away with the enricher and use a primer which I  did...the 503 starts the first pull when primed correctly....and I keep it  running at times with the primer until it is warmed up...however my original   problem with starting in the beginning was bad plug wires and carbs not  set up right. I now I sort of think that with everything correct the enrichers  should do the job and have some advantages...for what it is worth....jim  swan    just put the firestar away for the winter.....lots of  snow up here now...  another thought I suspect the enricher may need  maintence more often  for proper seal if used...

  

 Jim Swan Kolb  Firestar ll, 503 Rotax , 6147 Wilcox Rd., Eaton Rapids, Mi 48827 ph 517-663-8488  GPS GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825   

  In a message dated 12/1/2011 12:27:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck"    <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>





another thing that helps in    cold weather.    I pull the enrichener and close



the    throttle,,,,  then when I do a walk around,,,  I hand  prop a    few

blades...  that will empty the enrichener bowl into the manifold    and 

cylinders.   when I get in and start the engine,,,  I    get a second burst of 

fuel,  and with everything primed,  it    starts up extremely quick.   the 

other thing that helps is make    sure the plugs are gaped properly.



boyd 





Boyd    Y/Kolbers:



That is a good idea.  Glad you shared that with    us.



On my 912ULS, if I have a problem starting in cold weather, and so    far I

have not had a problem starting with the enricher well below    freezing, I

could wait a few seconds with the electric boost pump on to    refill the bowl

and the enricher well, then hit it again to attempt to    start.



It is better to go to close with the spark plug gap than what    the book calls

for, or to wide.  The 912ULS calls for .028".  I    gap for .020 to .025".  If

the gap gets too big, it will not fire    across them at start up, although it

will run just fine if you luck up and    get it started.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama - 28F and     bsp;             (And Get Some AWESOME FREE  o find  ifts  bsp;   lder's  LP     you for  ;                        -Matt Dralle,    List  e  ies  ay                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site  p;                             



	




 [quote][b]

johngilpin

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 93
Location: 004

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:31 am Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

 	  Quote: 	
		  <...If the throttle is not closed, the charge in the enricher well will not be sucked into the engine....>

 

Boy, isn't that the truth!  

How many times have you seen someone can't get a Rotax 2-stroke to start until you insist that they hold the throttle completely closed, then it fires next pull.....



JG 	
   [quote][b]

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Primer Kit Installed

While we are on this starting issues.

If I have a balky starting engine on any of my gadgets. Chain saws, weed eater, tractor etc. I do not wear out the starter nor pull the cord out by the roots.  Just a small shot of starter fluid or raw gas.



Therefore just a question.  Do you use starting fluid on your airplane engine?



I have not and probably will not. But I have not seen this mentioned on any of the forums.

David d.

_________________
Kolb Mark IIIX 582 Blue head

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Therefore just a question.  Do you use starting fluid on your airplane engine?

 --------

 Kolb Mark IIIX  582 Blue head


	




Starting fluid has NO place anywhere near an airplane engine, unless you are going to wash 

parts in it (ether).  Starting fluid places a tremendous strain on an engine, and there is NO

way you can determine how much strain you are actually doing to it.  



If you have to depend on starting fluid to get an airplane motor running, then the fuel

delivery system is not set up correctly, or at least the choke/primer is NOT correct.



Keep the starting fluid around for your tractor.  Keep it away from an airplane.  Just my opinion.



Mike Welch

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Therefore just a question.  Do you use starting fluid on your airplane 

engine?



I have not and probably will not. But I have not seen this mentioned on any 

of the forums.

David d.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>..


	


No,,,,   i dont own a can of starting fluid...  ive heard of people blowing 

head gaskets using the stuff.



boyd

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Mike, I'll take the alternate view. I use starting fluid on any bulky starting engine regardless of what it powers, BUT, I only fog it around the aircleaner or, if the intake tract is restrictive, I'll pull the air cleaner cap and fog it, then close up and start. The key is using good sense. If you spray down the carb throat and wash the oil off the cylinders you deserve the damage you'll get. As with most things in life, moderation is the key. 

Rick Girard

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Michael Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: Michael Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>

 >

 > Therefore just a question.  Do you use starting fluid on your airplane engine?

 	  Quote: 	
		   --------

 > Kolb Mark IIIX  582 Blue head

Starting fluid has NO place anywhere near an airplane engine, unless you are going to wash

 parts in it (ether).  Starting fluid places a tremendous strain on an engine, and there is NO

 way you can determine how much strain you are actually doing to it.

 If you have to depend on starting fluid to get an airplane motor running, then the fuel

 delivery system is not set up correctly, or at least the choke/primer is NOT correct.

 Keep the starting fluid around for your tractor.  Keep it away from an airplane.  Just my opinion.

 Mike Welch

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Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

pcarillonsr(at)neo.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

On 12/1/2011 4:40 PM, Richard Girard wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		  Before I peeled off the left landing gear of dear old       Zulu Delta, I had a chance to test which works best, primer or       starting carbs (enrichners, but they really are small separate       carb that only work when the throttle is completely closed as       noted). Whereever my 582 ends up, most probably on my old       Firestar, it's will have enrichners and no primer. Ken's 582       starts much easier than mine, especially in cold weather.

                            	  Quote: 	
		               

           	
         

       

     	
     

              A side note to using the primer with an oil injection     engine is your probably shooting raw gas into the cylinders at start     up.  I don't know if this little bit of raw gas will hurt any thing     or not, but might be something to think               about.      Anybody know the answer?  

     

     

               Jack Carillon  Akron Oh.  FS II

     [quote]                            	  Quote: 	
		               

             

             

             Read this topic online here:

             

             http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=359955#359955

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

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         Zulu Delta

         Mk IIIC

         Thanks, Homer GBYM

         

         

         It               isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order               to be unhappy.

                 - Groucho Marx

         

           

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Mike, I agree completely. I've seen a generator's camshaft broken by use of ether. I do use it, but only on a cheapie leaf-blower that was wearing out my right shoulder -- if it dies, no big deal. 

NOT for any aircraft engine use.

Russ K

On Dec 1, 2011, at 8:13 AM, Michael Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> 

> Therefore just a question.  Do you use starting fluid on your airplane engine?

> --------

> Kolb Mark IIIX  582 Blue head

 Starting fluid has NO place anywhere near an airplane engine, unless you are going to wash 

 parts in it (ether).  Starting fluid places a tremendous strain on an engine, and there is NO

 way you can determine how much strain you are actually doing to it.  

 If you have to depend on starting fluid to get an airplane motor running, then the fuel

 delivery system is not set up correctly, or at least the choke/primer is NOT correct.

 Keep the starting fluid around for your tractor.  Keep it away from an airplane.  Just my opinion.

 Mike Welch

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Kolbers,



When the FireFly was pushed around by the Rotax 447, I used the enricher to 

get it started.  It was a pain in that in cold weather, it took too many 

pulls to get the engine started.  Even though I pumped the carb bowl full of 

gas, a few times, I pushed the FireFly back in the hangar because I could 

not get it started.  After reading up about the engine, I found that the 447 

spark jumps both plugs at the same time.  I re gapped the plug to a lesser 

gap and things improved.



When I changed to the Victor 1+, I had the same carburetor, a Bing.  I 

mounted a push bulb on the float bowl.  While the FireFly was in the hangar, 

I would open the valve, squeeze the press bulb two times, close the valve, 

and then pull the propeller through two compressions.  Then I would pull the 

plane out of the hangar, get into my gear and into the cockpit.  By priming 

early, it gives the gas plenty of time to vaporize inside the crank case and 

the cylinder.  Never fail, the engine would fire up on the first or second 

turn of the crank.  The nice thing about this primer installation is that 

there are no long connecting tubes to the cockpit.



With the MZ 34,  I installed the same system on the Tillotson carburetor.  

This time I used a ready made push bulb rather than one scavenged from a 

dead weed wacker.  The start process is the same as described above, and the 

engine fires the first time over.



If you would like to see these setups the Bing primer may be found at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly89.html



And the Tillotson at:



http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly153.html



I do not believe there is any need for concern about shooting enough gas to 

prime an oil injected engine.  The amount is quite minuscule.  Also, when I 

tore down the 447 and the Victor 1+, I was amazed as to how much oil was 

inside the engine.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Also, when I tore down the 447 and the Victor 1+, I was amazed as to how

much oil was inside the engine.



Jack B. Hart FF004

 



Jack H/Kolbers:



Got to turn the engines to clear the crankcases.



Low rpm's on a two stroke is murder on them.  They like to turn.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Kolbers,



I generally allow my FF to idle for a minute or two after landing to 

cool it down.  Is this counter-productive?  I like my engine and want to 

treat it with as much kindness as I can.



Dave Kulp

Bethlehem, PA

FireFly 11DMK



On 12/1/2011 10:21 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



   Also, when I tore down the 447 and the Victor 1+, I was amazed as to how

 much oil was inside the engine.



 Jack B. Hart FF004





 Jack H/Kolbers:



 Got to turn the engines to clear the crankcases.



 Low rpm's on a two stroke is murder on them.  They like to turn.



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

I generally allow my FF to idle for a minute or two after landing to cool it

down.  Is this counter-productive?  I like my engine and want to treat it

with as much kindness as I can.



Dave Kulp

 



Dave K/Kolbers:



Engine has probably cooled down during decent and taxi to tie down.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

undoctor

Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

Good to know.  Thanks, John.



Dave



On 12/1/2011 10:50 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   





 I generally allow my FF to idle for a minute or two after landing to cool it

 down.  Is this counter-productive?  I like my engine and want to treat it

 with as much kindness as I can.



 Dave Kulp

 Dave K/Kolbers:



 Engine has probably cooled down during decent and taxi to tie down.



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: Primer Kit Installed

At 09:21 PM 12/1/11 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Jack H/Kolbers:



Got to turn the engines to clear the crankcases.



Low rpm's on a two stroke is murder on them.  They like to turn.



john h


	


Kolbers,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the above, the implication is that I run my engines too slow.  The 447 

was running wide open when it seized on climb out due to contaminated 
	


Amsoil.  The Victor 1+ was flown for a half an hour at cruise speed and then 

I returned to the airport, landed, taxied back to the hangar and shut it 

down.  Upon pulling it into the hangar I found a coolant leak.  Fried the 

cylinder and piston but not to the point of seizer.



Think about it, the non volatile oil is splashed all through out the case by 

the rotating and oscillating parts where it adheres to the case wall and all 

other parts.  Some proceeds on through into the combustion chamber were it 

burns and is blown out the exhaust.  After shut down, the oil that has been 

plastered against the case and clinging to other parts, by gravity flows or 

drips downward to the bottom of the case.  



The other implication of John's statement is that you should run your two 

stroke wide open to prevent lubrication problems.  If you run your engine 

within the range published by the engine manufacturer, and you properly set 

up your injection system and/or mix your fuel correctly you will not have 

any lubrication problems.



If you would like to check out how much oil remains in the case, take the 

cover off you two stroke weed wacker and take a peek.  You will find the 

parts well coated with oil.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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