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Lithium-Ion Battery?

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jim(at)poogiebearranch.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: Lithium-Ion Battery?

"923te" wrote:  

<< Probably by the time you get an STC the new Lithium ion batteries

will be available for our grummans. You might want to consider that

before investing a lot of time into a battery that will probably fade

away in the not to distant future. The lithuim ion battery will be half

the weight of the current battery. Maybe even less.>>



I was intrigued, because I've been following some of the "electric

flying" stuff at EAA and other sites, and there's a lot of "control

stuff" that goes along with those batteries.  Got me wondering what

Concorde knew that others didn't...  So I went to their website to read:

 

<<"The lithium-ion main aircraft battery will not be a retrofit battery.

In order to assure safe operation, the lithium-ion battery must be

integrated into the control software and electronics of the aircraft

system. Redundant safety systems built into the aircraft as well as into

the battery are required to control the lithium-ion battery. With

adequate protection systems and monitoring, the battery will provide

reliable power for the aircraft of the future.>>



<<Advantages: 

* High energy density potential for yet higher capacities. 

* Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all

that's needed. 

* Relatively low self-discharge - self-discharge is less than half that

of nickel-based batteries. 

* Low Maintenance - no periodic discharge is needed; there is no memory.



* Specialty cells can provide very high current.>>



<<Limitations: 

* Requires protection circuit to maintain voltage and current within

safe limits. Protection circuitry involves both additional hardware and

software. 

* On aircraft battery monitoring and alarms will be required for safe

operation. 

* Subject to aging, even if not in use - storage in a cool place at 40%

charge reduces the aging effect. 

* Transportation restrictions - shipment of larger batteries may be

subject to regulatory control. 

* Expensive to manufacture - about 40 percent higher in cost than

nickel-cadmium. 

* Not a fully mature chemistry - metals and chemicals are changing on a

continuing basis. 

* Extremely flammable electrolyte. ">>



While the advantages sound great, the disadvantages are significant, and

it sounds like there's a lot of work to be done before it will be

available for "new designs" - likely a LOT longer for retrofit -

especially since they are saying "The lithium-ion main aircraft battery

will not be a retrofit battery."

 

Seems like we'd be safe going ahead with a Concorde for the next 2-3

years, at least...  (Just my 2 cents worth.)

 

Jim Parker (hoping to be a "new" Cheetah owner before the end of the

year...)

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Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:02 pm Post subject: Lithium-Ion Battery?

Jim

I think there is perhaps a lot of protection language on the Concorde website. That is liability protection. The experimental world is already using the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries as direct replacements. These latest generation batteries, like in the Chevy Volt and others do not have the issues of blowing up etc and don't require the controls you are talking about

See. http://www.lithiummoto.com/



And others like for more info



Where you can replace your 29lb 12volt battery with one that weighs around 2.5lbs as in the following picture

http://www.lithiummoto.com/gallery.html

Ned

Sent from my iPhone



On Dec 19, 2011, at 1:00 PM, <jim(at)poogiebearranch.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 "923te" wrote:  

 << Probably by the time you get an STC the new Lithium ion batteries

 will be available for our grummans. You might want to consider that

 before investing a lot of time into a battery that will probably fade

 away in the not to distant future. The lithuim ion battery will be half

 the weight of the current battery. Maybe even less.>>

 

 I was intrigued, because I've been following some of the "electric

 flying" stuff at EAA and other sites, and there's a lot of "control

 stuff" that goes along with those batteries.  Got me wondering what

 Concorde knew that others didn't...  So I went to their website to read:

 

 <<"The lithium-ion main aircraft battery will not be a retrofit battery.

 In order to assure safe operation, the lithium-ion battery must be

 integrated into the control software and electronics of the aircraft

 system. Redundant safety systems built into the aircraft as well as into

 the battery are required to control the lithium-ion battery. With

 adequate protection systems and monitoring, the battery will provide

 reliable power for the aircraft of the future.>>

 

 <<Advantages: 

 * High energy density potential for yet higher capacities. 

 * Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all

 that's needed. 

 * Relatively low self-discharge - self-discharge is less than half that

 of nickel-based batteries. 

 * Low Maintenance - no periodic discharge is needed; there is no memory.

 

 * Specialty cells can provide very high current.>>

 

 <<Limitations: 

 * Requires protection circuit to maintain voltage and current within

 safe limits. Protection circuitry involves both additional hardware and

 software. 

 * On aircraft battery monitoring and alarms will be required for safe

 operation. 

 * Subject to aging, even if not in use - storage in a cool place at 40%

 charge reduces the aging effect. 

 * Transportation restrictions - shipment of larger batteries may be

 subject to regulatory control. 

 * Expensive to manufacture - about 40 percent higher in cost than

 nickel-cadmium. 

 * Not a fully mature chemistry - metals and chemicals are changing on a

 continuing basis. 

 * Extremely flammable electrolyte. ">>

 

 While the advantages sound great, the disadvantages are significant, and

 it sounds like there's a lot of work to be done before it will be

 available for "new designs" - likely a LOT longer for retrofit -

 especially since they are saying "The lithium-ion main aircraft battery

 will not be a retrofit battery."

 

 Seems like we'd be safe going ahead with a Concorde for the next 2-3

 years, at least...  (Just my 2 cents worth.)

 

 Jim Parker (hoping to be a "new" Cheetah owner before the end of the

 year...)

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

jim(at)poogiebearranch.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: Lithium-Ion Battery?

Hey, Ned.  It sounds really great, and I look forward to the day they

make the LIon battery avaialble for certified airplane use.  My point

was really not so much about "is it safe" as it was about how long

before the feds will approve it for use in certified airplanes.  Then,

once that is done, how long (if ever) before Concorde elects to pursue

"retrofit" applications - which directly correlates to whether or not

the complex charging/discharging management circuits are required.  

 

Slightly tangential to this topic, there was a great explanation of the

micro-controllers than handle all of this on the Apple website (of all

places) the Apple website, when the current-generation "aluminum shell"

MacBook Pros were launched.  Basically, they showed how they were able

to take each cell of the battery, and install a small micro-controller

in the circuitry that permitted each cell's charge/discharge rate to be

managed independenty.  This advance (not really original in concept to

Apple - it's been around in solar-cell technologies for home use for a

while) allowed them to get a pretty phenomenal battery life from these

laptops.  I'm sure Concorde is (or will be) using something similar, as

most of the Radio-Controlled crowd is already on board with this as

well.

 

It's pretty amazing the pace of advancements in the battery field that

has occurred since fuel costs have come up to the present levels.  I

hope that we eventually do see the availability of "practical" electric

flight while I'm still young enough to participate in it...  There are

several electric airplanes flying now with about a 1-hour flight time,

and folks who follow that industry closely expect to see 2 to 2 1/2 hour

ranges within the next couple of years.  That won't replace our internal

combustion engines for cross-country flying, but for a 1-2 hour local

area sightseeing flight, or just going out to shoot some touch-and-go

patterns, it would sure be less expensive!

 

Great to be alive and a pilot these days, even with the high cost of -

well - EVERYTHING!

 

Jim (Expecting "my" Cheetah to be ready any day now...  Worse than a kid

on Christmas Eve!)

- The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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