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Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

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Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to be.  Maybe I found something. 

  

 I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley  turbo:

 http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

  

 Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or Normally  aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

 http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

  

 In addition, Tempests' new advertising campaign lists acceptable resistance  of spark plugs as :

  

 500 - 3000 ohms = New - Good

500 - 5000 ohms = Used - Good

 	  Quote: 	
		  =5000  ohms = No Good-Hard Starting-Misfire-Poor Combustion

ref.: http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf
	


  

 So I pulled my Champion REM38S fine wires to look for broken  ceramic and measured resistance:

 No broken ceramic but resistance was very high.

  

 Plug Resistance k-ohms

  

 Cyl     Top                   Bottom           Bottom

 1       29.8                     68.9                  Oily

 2      No  Continuity        2.8                  Dry

 3         5.7                      5.9                 Oily

 4      12.9                    33.7                  Oily

  

 Spare 19.16 Spare was removed becaused it kept fouling

  

 If Tempest resistance values apply to Champion plugs then all my plugs are  bad One plug had no continuity at all. Resistance measured while cold ~ 35 deg  F.

 The engine used to bust right off, starting first blade. Last year or so of  flying it was hard to start and would misfire when loading up, ie when keeping  WOT and lowering RPM

 all pointing to a possible igniton problem.

  

 New plugs going in. Hope to be flying again next week and we'll see how it  does with new plugs....and a straight cowling....

  

 Ned



   [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:40 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

I always use 37BY plugs.

       From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

 Subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

  

           I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to be.  Maybe I found something. 

  

 I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley  turbo:

 http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

  

 Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or Normally  aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

 http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

  

 In addition, Tempests' new advertising campaign lists acceptable resistance  of spark plugs as :

  

 500 - 3000 ohms = New - Good

500 - 5000 ohms = Used - Good

 	  Quote: 	
		  =5000  ohms = No Good-Hard Starting-Misfire-Poor Combustion

ref.: http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf
	


  

 So I pulled my Champion REM38S fine wires to look for broken  ceramic and measured resistance:

 No broken ceramic but resistance was very high.

  

 Plug Resistance k-ohms

  

 Cyl     Top                   Bottom           Bottom

 1       29.8                     68.9                  Oily

 2      No  Continuity        2.8                  Dry

 3         5.7                      5.9                 Oily

 4      12.9                    33.7                  Oily

  

 Spare 19.16 Spare was removed becaused it kept fouling

  

 If Tempest resistance values apply to Champion plugs then all my plugs are  bad One plug had no continuity at all. Resistance measured while cold ~ 35 deg  F.

 The engine used to bust right off, starting first blade. Last year or so of  flying it was hard to start and would misfire when loading up, ie when keeping  WOT and lowering RPM

 all pointing to a possible igniton problem.

  

 New plugs going in. Hope to be flying again next week and we'll see how it  does with new plugs....and a straight cowling....

  

 Ned



    	  Quote: 	
		  =     * AeroElectric www.home========================

t; http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-L-========================llow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http========================


	




 

 

  

 [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

what engine is in the SR-22?

I think the change to RHB29E is a guess.  Plug runs cooler.  I don't think they know the failure mode.

If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

       From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48  AM

 Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

           I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to be.  Maybe I found something. 

 I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley  turbo:

 http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

 Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or Normally  aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

 http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 In addition, Tempests' new advertising campaign lists acceptable resistance  of spark plugs as :

 500 - 3000 ohms = New - Good

500 - 5000 ohms = Used - Good

 	  Quote: 	
		  =5000  ohms = No Good-Hard Starting-Misfire-Poor Combustion

ref.: http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf

 So I pulled my Champion REM38S fine wires to look for broken  ceramic and measured resistance:

 No broken ceramic but resistance was very high.

 Plug Resistance k-ohms

 Cyl     Top                   Bottom           Bottom

 1       29.8                     68.9                  Oily

 2      No  Continuity        2.8                  Dry

 3         5.7                      5.9                 Oily

 4      12.9                    33.7                  Oily

 Spare 19.16 Spare was removed becaused it kept fouling

 If Tempest resistance values apply to Champion plugs then all my plugs are  bad One plug had no continuity at all. Resistance measured while cold ~ 35 deg  F.

 The engine used to bust right off, starting first blade. Last year or so of  flying it was hard to start and would misfire when loading up, ie when keeping  WOT and lowering RPM

 all pointing to a possible igniton problem.

 New plugs going in. Hope to be flying again next week and we'll see how it  does with new plugs....and a straight cowling....

 Ned

   [quote]www.homebuilthelp.com[/url]llow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrum="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matro====================

[b]

n2_narcosis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

io-550. 

------------------------------

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 11:42 AM CST Gary Vogt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  what engine is in the SR-22?



I think the change to RHB29E is a guess.  Plug runs cooler.  I don't think they know the failure mode.



If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

________________________________

 From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

Subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

 



 

I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to be. 

Maybe I found something. 

 

I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley 

turbo:

http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

 

Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or Normally 

aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 

In addition, Tempests' new advertising campaign lists acceptable resistance 

of spark plugs as :

 

500 - 3000 ohms = New - Good

500 - 5000 ohms = Used - Good

>=5000 

ohms = No Good-Hard Starting-Misfire-Poor Combustion

ref.: http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf

 

So I pulled my Champion REM38S fine wires to look for broken 

ceramic and measured resistance:

No broken ceramic but resistance was very high.

 

Plug Resistance k-ohms

 

Cyl    

Top                  

Bottom           Bottom

1      

29.8                    

68.9                 

Oily

2      No 

Continuity       

2.8                 

Dry

3        

5.7                      5.9                 Oily

4      12.9                    33.7                 

Oily

 

Spare 19.16 Spare was removed becaused it kept fouling

 

If Tempest resistance values apply to Champion plugs then all my plugs are 

bad One plug had no continuity at all. Resistance measured while cold ~ 35 deg 

F.

The engine used to bust right off, starting first blade. Last year or so of 

flying it was hard to start and would misfire when loading up, ie when keeping 

WOT and lowering RPM

all pointing to a possible igniton problem.

 

New plugs going in. Hope to be flying again next week and we'll see how it 

does with new plugs....and a straight========================

=====

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   what engine is in the SR-22?



 I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think

 they know the failure mode.



 If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* 923te <923te(at)att.net>

 *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

 *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

 *Subject:* Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning



 I've been looking for reasons why my plane isn't as fast as it used to

 be. Maybe I found something.

 I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:

 http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

 Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or

 Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

 http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire


	


The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). 

This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory 

installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.



I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.  The problems are 

largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the 

NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different combustion chamber than 

any parallel valve Lycoming engine.



TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized 

STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.  The problems pointed 

to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some 

engine failures.  NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive 

electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had 

the fine wire RHB32S plugs.  No cracked insulators were found with the 

massive electrode plugs.



TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in 

the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if 

the former cannot be found.  The SB has much more info but here are some 

excerpts.



TAT SB 11-05

"A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced 

landings), and one (non-injury) accident

have prompted this service bulletin. The field reports are supported by 

photographic and physical parts

evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an 

unusually frequent occurrence of

cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark 

plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.



Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in 

most, but not all, turbonormalized

SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of 

RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also

been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a 

normally aspirated Bonanza, and a

Cessna T310R.



Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a 

common cause of pre-ignition type

combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion 

events are the most destructive

combustion process known to affect piston engines. So far as is known, 

similar issues with RHB32E (massive

style) are not occurring.



TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E

massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E 

massive spark plugs."



I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our 

Lycoming engines.  I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some 

time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I 

don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't 

see the added benefit.  I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs 

twice as often or so.  If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use 

the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.



Cliff



Cliff

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

[quote]Here are 3 references to spark plug resistance limits

One says 5,000

one says 10,000

one says 20,000

 

 

From John Schwaner

http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng174.htm

Worn or fouled spark plugs (spark plugs with over 10,000 ohm resistance, 1,000 ohm normal) can dramatically raise the voltage required to fire the spark plug

 

Hmm, found this from our AYA Tech guy

http://www.aircraftowner.com/magazine/tag/Aircraft%20Maintenance%20Restoration

Jeff Simon:

Champion and Unison will not release official values for a bad plug resistance, but I was told unofficially that any plug showing 20K Ohms or more should really be scrapped

 

 

Tempest says above 5,000 Ohms is bad

http://www.electroair.net/pdf/SparkPlugCard.pdf

 

 

[b]

benlowther(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

See Champion Service Letter

  From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>

 To: Cliff <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM

 Subject: Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety  Warning

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

Cliff

You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing

Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks

Ned

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>

 On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

> what engine is in the SR-22?

> 

> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think

> they know the failure mode.

> 

> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:* 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

> *Subject:* Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

> 

> I've been looking for reasons why my  plane isn't as fast as it used to

> be. Maybe I found something.

> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:

> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or

> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.

 I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.  The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different  combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.

 TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.  The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.  NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.  No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.

 TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found.  The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.

 TAT SB 11-05

 "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident

 have prompted this  service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts

 evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of

 cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.

 Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized

 SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also

 been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a

 Cessna T310R.

 Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type

 combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive

 combustion process known to affect  piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive

 style) are not occurring.

 TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E

 massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."

 I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines.  I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit.  I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so.  If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.

 Cliff

 Cliff

 tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" =   --> <a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=====

Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf

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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

On 12/27/2011 8:55 AM, 923te wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Cliff

 You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing



 Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks

 Ned


	


Not with the fine wire plugs.  But I would think the manufacturer's 

recommendation would trump others.



I've tested massive electrode ones some and just checked 8 used ones out 

of a Tiger that showed a little over 1000 ohms, except for one that was 

misfiring and failed to fire at higher air pressures on a plug testing 

machine.  It's resistance was was high at about 14 megohms!  As I recall 

all the plugs that I know were firing OK have had pretty low resistance, 

like 2K or less.



I do know it is very important to have a good contact with the meter 

probes on the electrodes down inside the on the center electrode.  You 

can get fooled if you are not carefull.  Probably need to bead blast the 

plug before checking the resistance.  Obviously, a plug with high 

resistance will make it more difficult for the mag to fire it and all 

the other system resistances will be additive.  And of course the 

voltage the mag can generate is a factor and probably decreases some 

over it's life.



Cliff

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther <benlowther(at)yahoo.com (benlowther(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]See Champion Service Letter

  From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

 To: Cliff <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> 

 Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM

 Subject: Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety  Warning

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te <[url=mailto:923te(at)att.net]923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)[/url]>

Cliff

You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing

Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks

Ned

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b <[url=mailto:flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com]flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <[url=mailto:flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com]flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)[/url]>

 On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

> what engine is in the SR-22?

> 

> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think

> they know the failure mode.

> 

> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:* 923te <[url=mailto:923te(at)att.net]923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)[/url]>

> *To:* [url=mailto:teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com]teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]

> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

> 

> I've been looking for reasons why my  plane isn't as fast as it used to

> be. Maybe I found something.

> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:

> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or

> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.

 I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.  The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different  combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.

 TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.  The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.  NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.  No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.

 TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found.  The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.

 TAT SB 11-05

 "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident

 have prompted this  service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts

 evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of

 cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.

 Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized

 SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also

 been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a

 Cessna T310R.

 Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type

 combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive

 combustion process known to affect  piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive

 style) are not occurring.

 TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E

 massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."

 I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines.  I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit.  I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so.  If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.

 Cliff

 Cliff

 tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" =   --> 

[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution][/url]

<Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf>

[b]

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

Which one there are many

Care to give a link?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther <benlowther(at)yahoo.com (benlowther(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]See Champion Service Letter

  From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

 To: Cliff <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> 

 Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM

 Subject: Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety  Warning

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te <[url=mailto:923te(at)att.net]923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)[/url]>

Cliff

You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing

Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks

Ned

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b <[url=mailto:flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com]flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <[url=mailto:flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com]flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)[/url]>

 On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

> what engine is in the SR-22?

> 

> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think

> they know the failure mode.

> 

> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:* 923te <[url=mailto:923te(at)att.net]923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)[/url]>

> *To:* [url=mailto:teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com]teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]

> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

> *Subject:* TeamGrumman-List: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

> 

> I've been looking for reasons why my  plane isn't as fast as it used to

> be. Maybe I found something.

> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:

> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or

> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.

 I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.  The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different  combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.

 TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.  The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.  NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.  No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.

 TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found.  The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.

 TAT SB 11-05

 "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident

 have prompted this  service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts

 evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of

 cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.

 Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized

 SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also

 been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a

 Cessna T310R.

 Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type

 combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive

 combustion process known to affect  piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive

 style) are not occurring.

 TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E

 massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."

 I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines.  I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit.  I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so.  If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.

 Cliff

 Cliff

 tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" =   --> 

[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution][/url]

<Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf>

[b]

benlowther(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:11 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

My appology I attached a PDF copy, but apparently it didn't attach.

The link is: http://www.championaerospace.com/assets/Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf

  From: 923te  <923te(at)att.net>

 To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 8:14 PM

 Subject: Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

 Which one there are many

Care to give a link?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 12:11 PM, Ben Lowther <benlowther(at)yahoo.com (benlowther(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote]See Champion Service Letter

  From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

 To: Cliff <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> 

 Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 5:55 PM

 Subject: Re: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety  Warning

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

Cliff

You have any experience with spark plug resistance? All my Champion fine wires were over 5000 ohms. Tempest says over 5000 and expect problems like I have been experiencing

Engine has been hard to start at least it hasn't started quickly like it used to and when loading up it misses. I hope to be flying soon to check this out. I've replaced the fine wires with some massives I had that have good resistance checks

Ned

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 27, 2011, at 8:37 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>

 On 12/24/2011 9:42 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

> what engine is in the SR-22?

> 

> I think the change to RHB29E is a guess. Plug runs cooler. I don't think

> they know the failure mode.

> 

> If the SR-22 has angle valves, well, it's an entirely different animal.

> 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:* 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>

> *To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

> *Sent:* Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:48 AM

> *Subject:* Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

> 

> I've been looking for reasons why my  plane isn't as fast as it used to

> be. Maybe I found something.

> I found a MSB concerning fine wire plug failures from Tornado Alley turbo:

> http://www.taturbo.com/TATSR22-SB11-05%20fine%20wire%20spark%20plugs%20initial%20release%20sept%2023%202011.pdf

> Beechtalk has a thread on this issue where they mention that NA or

> Normally aspirated engines have the same failure with fine wire plugs.

> http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=59668&hilit=fine+wire

 The NA engine in the SR22 is an IO-550N, rated at 310 hp (9.0:1 CR). This was turbo-normalized by TAT (via STC) and then  later on the factory installed a TSIO-550K, rated at 315 hp in the SR22T.

 I think the failure mode is pretty well defined.  The problems are largely with the turbo-normalized engines but have also occurred on the NA engines, both have 9.0:1 CR and a different  combustion chamber than any parallel valve Lycoming engine.

 TAT issued a SB in late September which applies to the turbo-normalized STC engine with the fine wire RHB32S spark plugs.  The problems pointed to cracked or damaged insulators which led to pre-ignition and some engine failures.  NA IO-55N engines typically had RHB32E massive electrode plugs installed and the turbo-normalized engine typically had the fine wire RHB32S plugs.  No cracked insulators were found with the massive electrode plugs.

 TAT is recommending in SB 11-05 that the fine wire plugs be replaced in the turbo-normalized STC'd engine with RHB29E plugs or RHB32E plugs if the former cannot be found.  The SB has much more info but here are some excerpts.

 TAT SB 11-05

 "A number of field reports, at least two incidents (on airport forced landings), and one (non-injury) accident

 have prompted this  service bulletin. The field reports are supported by photographic and physical parts

 evidence, and by direct experience. Collectively, this data documents an unusually frequent occurrence of

 cracked ceramic insulators found in Champion RHB32S fine wire spark plugs installed in a variety of aircraft.

 Champion RHB32S fine wire plugs were installed as original equipment in most, but not all, turbonormalized

 SR 22 aircraft (TN SR22). The same failure mode for the cracking of RHB32S fine wire spark plugs has also

 been observed in normally aspirated SR22 aircraft, a Columbia 400, a normally aspirated Bonanza, and a

 Cessna T310R.

 Cracked and damaged ceramic insulators on spark plugs are known to be a common cause of pre-ignition type

 combustion events in aircraft piston engines. Pre-ignition combustion events are the most destructive

 combustion process known to affect  piston engines. So far as is known, similar issues with RHB32E (massive

 style) are not occurring.

 TAT has neither seen nor heard of any report of any cracked RHB32E

 massive spark plug in that group of aircraft equipped with RHB32E massive spark plugs."

 I don't believe that Grumman owners have anything to worry about in our Lycoming engines.  I have been running them in my O-320 for quite some time now as they came with the engine and have had no problems but I don't think I would buy them due to the extremely high cost and I don't see the added benefit.  I'd rather replace the massive electrode plugs twice as often or so.  If you feel you have a fouling issue you can use the REM37BY plugs which are less susceptible.

 Cliff

 Cliff

 tp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.bsp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lista href="http://forums.matronics.com" =   --> 

[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution][/url]

<Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf>

=     * AeroElectric www.homman-List" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navirums.matronics.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.matron--> [b]

flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: Spark Plugs - Fine Wire Safety Warning

On 12/27/2011 12:07 PM, Ben Lowther wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My appology I attached a PDF copy, but apparently it didn't attach.

 The link is:

 http://www.championaerospace.com/assets/Champion-Fine-Wire-Spark-Plug-Service-Letter.pdf


	


Seems like everyone wants to blame someone else for the problem!

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