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johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

I have had two hard landings with my CH701

has anyone solved the problem of the rudder and nose wheel

not self centering?

I am doing an extensive rebuild of the front gear.

Please help solve this problem.

_________________
John ch701 912

larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

Hi John,

I've heard of this problem a good number of times by now and would recommend

you keep landings

exclusively on the mains until the rollout is exhausted and then focus on

getting the nose gear centered

just before it touches down.  Not such a difficult thing once practiced a

lot, but I had the same difficulty

initially when first introduced to landings in an 601HD.  It can be done and

eventually becomes natural.

If you have wheel fairings on, you might consider that some fairings will

cause over-steer in the air.

My first Zenith round-nosed fairings did this in spades and I eventually

made my own which cut thru the air rather than placing a center of pressure

at the front end of the fairing.

Do fly safe John,



Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



--

n752ms(at)softcom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

Do you think the hard landing was a result of the nose gear not centering?  



Sent from Mark's iPhone



On Jan 1, 2012, at 2:02 PM, "johnaswanson" <jswanson(at)jamadots.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have had two hard landings with my CH701

 has anyone solved the problem of the rudder and nose wheel

 not self centering?

 I am doing an extensive rebuild of the front gear.

 Please help solve this problem.

 

 --------

 John ch701 912

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362188#362188

johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

On Jan 1, 2012, at 6:32 PM, Mark Sherman wrote:

[quote] 

 Do you think the hard landing was a result of the nose gear not centering?  

> No, I do not think that self centering the nose gear was a direct result of hitting the nose wheel. 

.

Do not archive

John 

 	  Quote: 	
		  > 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

_________________
John ch701 912

Last edited by johnaswanson on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:10 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

John-- have you tried adding a touch of power just before touch down to help 

stop the rapid loss of altitude? ---- are they cross wind induced problems?

---

Dan Wilde

Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 34

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

On 1/1/2012 2:02 PM, johnaswanson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have had two hard landings with my CH701

 has anyone solved the problem of the rudder and nose wheel

 not self centering?

 I am doing an extensive rebuild of the front gear.

 Please help solve this problem.



 --------

 John ch701 912

Sounds like you might be too slow on landing or flaring too high.  The 
	


701 sinks fast when you get real slow and no power.



Dan Wilde

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Front strut steering

Don't try landing too slow and steep at first as you will not be able to control the nose wheel coming down quickly. Start landing faster until you get the feel of the 701. As you get used to it you will be able to land slower while keeping the nose wheel up much better. Do not let it down (nose wheel) until you can no longer keep it off the runway.

Taking the slats off and add vortex generators, helps do this much easier as the plane will float a bit farther before plunking down. I think you will like your 701 better with slats off. If you must land on VERY short runways then keep them on.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Front strut steering

do not archive

_________________
John ch701 912

Last edited by johnaswanson on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: Front strut steering

It has been 25 years since I sold my PA -28-151  but I 'think'  the Piper Pa-28 series  aircraft have the nose wheel and rudder interconnected... 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

frank goodnight

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 126

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: Front strut steering

As a newbe to this list. and just starting to build my 701. I have a lot of questions, some

of witch I'm sure have already been asked and answered.Does anyone know the reason Zenith did away with the tail wheel on the 701 ?

Frank Goodnight

Arkansas 701 builder



From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>

To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, January 2, 2012 11:45:21 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Front strut steering



 It has been 25 years since I sold my PA -28-151  but I 'think'  the Piper Pa-28 series  aircraft have the nose wheel and rudder interconnected... 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

Excuse me for replying.



Fritz

---

graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

I and most other CH701have done hundreds of landings with the serious design 

flaw in our CH701 and not bent the front wheel.

Maybe 36years hasn't prepared you for the Ch701 try landing faster with more 

elevator control!



graemecns



---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

The 701 airplane is nothing like the certified planes that I have  flown over the years. It is more like a cross between an ultralight and a  regular plane. You need instruction in this plane just like I would need  instruction to land a 747. I believe that there is not a design flaw but a pilot  flaw in lacking experience in type.

  

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX  CH701/912S

  

  In a message dated 1/2/2012 8:50:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au writes:

 [quote]-->    Zenith701801-List message posted by: "Graeme(at)Coletoolentre"    <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au>



I and most other CH701have done    hundreds of landings with the serious design 

flaw in our CH701 and not    bent the front wheel.

Maybe 36years hasn't prepared you for the Ch701 try    landing faster with more 

elevator control!



graemecns



-----    Original Message ----- 

From: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net>

To:    <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012    10:19 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Front strut    steering

[quote] --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "fritz"    <klondike(at)megalink.net>



 Excuse me for    replying.



 Fritz

 ---

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm Post subject: Front strut steering

I've been trying to decide "if" and/or "how" to answer this thread.  I have been flying for nearly ten years, have about 300 hrs total time with about 125 of that in my scratch built 701.  I, like many of the posters here, have not really found this "Serious Design Fault" with the Zenith nose wheel steering that the original poster, John, mentioned.  I have landed my little beastie in a gusty 15 kt, 90 degree crosswind with out any aircraft induced issues (I have decided 15 kt crosswind is my personal limit, not necessarily the planes limit).  Thus my initial (unvoiced) response to the opriginal poster was simply "learn to fly the plane".

 

Giving John his due, as he says, he's been flying for well over thirty years, perhaps there is  something different or wrong with his 701.  Is the steering assembly unusually stiff?  Are there VGs on the elevator?  Elevator VGs help quite a bit with nose control during landing.

 

The next question would be, how much time on type does John have?  The 701 is an international (as opposed to US) ultralight/ microlight.  The CH-701 has very little momentum and is a very high drag plane.  As someone pointed out, when the 701's nose comes up in the flare, the plane stops flying RIGHT NOW! unless a little extra power is maintained.  This unusual flare characteristic is just one of the many ways the 701 differs from production aircraft, necessitating a proper checkout on type, even for a high time pilot.



John, since there are several of us on the 701/801 list that are satisfied with the nose wheel steering system of  our 701s and do not see your "serious design fault", maybe we should discuss the specific details of how your steering system is set up and how that might be causing problems others are not experienceing.  Failing that, I suspect many others will chime in with responses similar to my initial gut feeling which will be of absolutely no benifit to you.  As others have said, we find the 701 to be a great little airplane.

 

Hope we can help you out.

 

Doug M

CH-701 from Scratch

NW Ontario, Canada

 

Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  > --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "johnaswanson" 

> <jswanson(at)jamadots.com (jswanson(at)jamadots.com)>

>

> I believe the ch701 has a serious design fault with the design of the

> front strut and the nose  wheel and rudder always being linked

> together unlike production aircraft.

>

> My topic was meant to address this design flaw not to critique our

> landings. 36 years of flying certified aircraft has never resulted in any

> damage or hard landings as in the CH701

>

> --------

> John ch701 912


	


   

 [quote][b]

johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Front strut steering

experience, proficiency,skill, etc aside

has anyone made any mechanical improvements to the 

nose wheel, strut, steering etc of the CH701?



I think someone out there has a better idea.

_________________
John ch701 912

n752ms(at)softcom.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Front strut steering

John.



Try Larry Martins site www.skyhawg.com. Look for the link spring loaded steering rods. 



Just keep in mind while Larry is a talented builder he does not fly. So a lot of his designs have not been extensively tested.  Also when using this setup all the foot pressure when applying the brakes goes to your rudder cables and then on to your rudder horn and associated ware points. 



For a fairly new guy to the list you have gotten spanked pretty hard the last couple of days. It's probably not a good idea to come on to a list that loves there 701's and say that what they are flying has serious design flaws. 



For the little amount of time my nose wheel is on the ground it is just not an issue. 



Hope Larry's site helps. 



Mark S.



701/912uls 200hrs 122 off airport landings



Sent from Mark's iPad



On Jan 3, 2012, at 6:42 AM, "johnaswanson" <jswanson(at)jamadots.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 experience, proficiency,skill, etc aside

 has anyone made any mechanical improvements to the 

 nose wheel, strut, steering etc of the CH701?

 

 I think someone out there has a better idea.

 

 --------

 John ch701 912

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362323#362323

johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Front strut steering

before I can do any more flying and landings i need to do some

fixing!

So this is my opportunity to "improve" on "my" airplane.



Has anyone on this list made any changes?

_________________
John ch701 912

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: Front strut steering

Actually, the rudder/front wheel spring setup has been extremely well 

tested/used.  The same setup has been used on the RAF-2000 gyroplane for 

many many years.  It wasn't exactly my idea, I just put it on a 701.  I 

have 20+ hours of taxiing on my 701, and it works fine.  Larry did fly, 

Larry just doesn't care to anymore, as they say, "been there, done 

that". When I flew gyros it helped a lot. If you don't think you would 

like the setup you can always tighten them up where you have no spring 

assistance. Take care, Larry

On 1/3/2012 9:25 AM, Mark S. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 John.

 Try Larry Martins site www.skyhawg.com. Look for the link spring loaded steering rods.

 Just keep in mind while Larry is a talented builder he does not fly. So a lot of his designs have not been extensively tested.  Also when using this setup all the foot pressure when applying the brakes goes to your rudder cables and then on to your rudder horn and associated ware points.

 For a fairly new guy to the list you have gotten spanked pretty hard the last couple of days. It's probably not a good idea to come on to a list that loves there 701's and say that what they are flying has serious design flaws.

 For the little amount of time my nose wheel is on the ground it is just not an issue.

 Hope Larry's site helps.

 Mark S.

 701/912uls 200hrs 122 off airport landings

 Sent from Mark's iPad

 On Jan 3, 2012, at 6:42 AM, "johnaswanson"<jswanson(at)jamadots.com>  wrote:

> 

>

> experience, proficiency,skill, etc aside

> has anyone made any mechanical improvements to the

> nose wheel, strut, steering etc of the CH701?

>

> I think someone out there has a better idea.

>

> --------

> John ch701 912

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362323#362323

>

>

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: Front strut steering

One thing that I am still not fully happy with in my 701 is the friction in the front nose fork bearings.

 

To help with this I added a nylon bearing block underneath the strut cap and then heavily lubricated it with teflon.

  

Others have added nylon blocks to the inside of the lower nose bearing extrusion such that the welded tubes that attach to the push rods ride on the nylon when in flight.

John Marzulli

 

http://MarzulliPhoto.net/

http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

 

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 8:54 AM, johnaswanson <jswanson(at)jamadots.com (jswanson(at)jamadots.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "johnaswanson" <jswanson(at)jamadots.com (jswanson(at)jamadots.com)>

 

 before I can do any more flying and landings i need to do some

 fixing!

 So this is my opportunity to "improve" on "my" airplane.

 

 Has anyone on this list made any changes?

 

 --------

 John ch701 912

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362333#362333

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

johnaswanson

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: Front strut steering

On Jan 3, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Larry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: Larry <lrm(at)skyhawg.com (lrm(at)skyhawg.com)>



Actually, the rudder/front wheel spring setup has been extremely well tested/used.  The same setup has been used on the RAF-2000 gyroplane for many many years.  It wasn't exactly my idea, I just put it on a 701.  I have 20+ hours of taxiing on my 701, and it works fine.  Larry did fly, Larry just doesn't care to anymore, as they say, "been there, done that". When I flew gyros it helped a lot. If you don't think you would like the setup you can always tighten them up where you have no spring assistance. Take care, Larry

	




Larry

Thanks for the reply, I would like to try your spring mod.

on my CH701.

Do your have a parts list?

if not can you tell me more about the parts needed, size of spring etc.

thanks 

John

ch701 912

 [quote][b]

_________________
John ch701 912

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