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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: helmets

Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight. 



I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

 



Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

 



Just thinking out loud here.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



 

  [quote][b]

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: helmets

BrianA good friend was in a midair a few years ago. He was knocked hard into a back corner of the cockpit. He was only a few hundred feet AGL. He said without the helmet he would have been knocked un conscious and crashed. It happened to be a converted Chinese helmet!RichSent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

From:  Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> 

Sender:  owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com 

Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 09:25:59 -0800

To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

ReplyTo:  yak-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: Yak-List: helmets

Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight.=A0

</= div>I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard= -shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one migh= t be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other=  guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the = winter as well as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth w= hen flying aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me.=A0

Just thinking out loud here.

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA = 95682

brian(at)lloyd.c= om (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

  [quote][b]

Fly4fude

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 12
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: Re: helmets

Why wear a hard shell helmet?  The same reason we wear parachutes.  If an emergency occurs and you should need to bailout a helmet is the minimum safety gear you would want on your way over the side.  



In the event of a forced landing. . . . .given a choice between having a helmet covering my head or not having one on during impact  . . . seems like an easy choice to me.



Like all safety gear you wear it for the worst case scenarios, not the best!

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: helmets

On Thursday, January 5, 2012, Richard Hess <hess737(at)aol.com (hess737(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian

 A good friend was in a midair a few years ago. He was knocked hard into a back corner of the cockpit. He was only a few hundred feet AGL. He said without the helmet he would have been knocked un conscious and crashed. It happened to be a converted Chinese helmet!

 
	


Interesting. Several things cause my to wonder about this: 



1. The helmets sold for aviation provide only minimal impact protection. 



2. The mass of the helmet increases the likelihood of neck injury. 

 

3. A properly-adjusted 5 or 6 point harness should limit the range of motion of the head and prevent contact between head and airframe/canopy. 



I do motorsports where a helmet is really needed but an aviation helmet doesn't even come close to providing the required protection. Still, I guess something is better than nothing. 

 

Thanks. 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: helmets

Brian,While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident.  When I lost the engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little more than its length.  That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass.  Had it actually broken I would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell it).   

 



Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other than a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass, and (at)65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.

 



As you may  know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp Cub (lycoming engine).  Had quite and adventure with immovable objects in the forest, finally comming to rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up.  Again, the shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument panel, but when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load put our heads into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on our heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html

 



Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch straps.  When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in our seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our chests.  When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple broke our ribs off our sternums.  Our back injuries would have happened either way, but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I am sure tell you that it is not something they would want to repeat any time soon.

 



What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen and I  will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point fwd.





Best from Omak,

 Doug



On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

[quote] Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight. 



I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

  



Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

  



Just thinking out loud here.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

  [url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)



 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: helmets

Some years ago at All Red Star, we had a safety briefing by the folks at Flight Suits from SoCal. Part of their presentation regarded the benefits of wearing a helmet. The part that made a strong impression on me was the pictures of canopy bird strikes. They were nasty. The message was: Wear a helmet with the visor down.

... Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jan 5, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:



[quote]Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a fight. 



I am interested in why people think they might want or need a hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

 



Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

 



Just thinking out loud here.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: helmets

I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a  helmet can do for you.  The helmet is insurance.  Twice in the last 15  years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive  concussion.  Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6  (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn).   They definitely would have been career ending episodes.  Numerous times  I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy  turbulence.  You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no  helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final  result.  Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor  about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are  head traumas due to lack of a helmet.  The physics there are no different  than an airplane.  I think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork"  while wearing a helmet.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dougsappllc(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]Brian,        While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you    little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident.  When I lost    the engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very    little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little    more than its length.  That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head    into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass.  Had it actually broken I    would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell    it).   

   



   Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other    than a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass,    and (at)65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.

   



   As you may  know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp    Cub (lycoming engine).  Had quite and adventure    with immovable objects in the forest, finally coming to    rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up.  Again, the    shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument panel, but    when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load put our heads    into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on our    heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html

   



   Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch    straps.  When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in    our seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our    chests.  When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple    broke our ribs off our sternums.  Our back injuries would have    happened either way, but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I    am sure tell you that it is not something they would want to repeat any time    soon.

   



   What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen    and I  will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point    fwd.

   



   



   Best from Omak,

   Doug

   

   On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a      fight.       



     I am interested in why people think they might want or need a      hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might      be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other      guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

     



     Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well      as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying      aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

     



     Just thinking out loud here.     



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western      Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: helmets

I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!



Bill



On Jan 5, 2012, at 1:14 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]     I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a  helmet can do for you.  The helmet is insurance.  Twice in the last 15  years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive  concussion.  Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6  (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn).   They definitely would have been career ending episodes.  Numerous times  I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy  turbulence.  You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no  helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final  result.  Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor  about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are  head traumas due to lack of a helmet.  The physics there are no different  than an airplane.  I think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork"  while wearing a helmet.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]cid:(null)[/img][img]cid:(null)[/img]Brian,        While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you    little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident.  When I lost    the engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very    little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little    more than its length.  That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head    into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass.  Had it actually broken I    would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell    it).   

   



   Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other    than a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass,    and (at)65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.

   



   As you may  know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp    Cub (lycoming engine).  Had quite and adventure    with immovable objects in the forest, finally coming to    rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up.  Again, the    shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument panel, but    when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load put our heads    into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on our    heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html

   



   Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch    straps.  When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in    our seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our    chests.  When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple    broke our ribs off our sternums.  Our back injuries would have    happened either way, but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I    am sure tell you that it is not something they would want to repeat any time    soon.

   



   What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen    and I  will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point    fwd.

   



   



   Best from Omak,

   Doug

   

   On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a      fight.       



     I am interested in why people think they might want or need a      hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might      be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other      guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

     



     Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well      as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying      aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

     



     Just thinking out loud here.     



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western      Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

jrittenbach

Joined: 08 Nov 2011
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: helmets

I can vouch for that Pappy! I call my helmetless trauma motorcyclists "organ donors"! 



JS Rittenbach MD



 

On Jan 5, 2012, at 12:14 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]  I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a  helmet can do for you.  The helmet is insurance.  Twice in the last 15  years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive  concussion.  Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6  (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn).   They definitely would have been career ending episodes.  Numerous times  I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy  turbulence.  You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no  helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final  result.  Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor  about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are  head traumas due to lack of a helmet.  The physics there are no different  than an airplane.  I think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork"  while wearing a helmet.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 1/5/2012 2:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  [img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/QMARK.GIF[/img][img]res://C:\Program Files\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking10\Program\web_ie.dll/ARROW.GIF[/img]Brian,        While fwd impact is restrained by your shoulder harnesses, they do you    little good in a fast decelerating/twisting type accident.  When I lost    the engine in a CJ and put it into a apple orchard the aircraft moved fwd very    little after impact but it did turn almost 90 degrees and stopped in a little    more than its length.  That sudden twisting/stopping motion put my head    into the canopy hard enough to crack the glass.  Had it actually broken I    would have been sliced, diced, and julienned ( think that's how you spell    it).   

   



   Before the accident I felt much like you do, my opinion was that other    than a aid to hear better helmets were a hot, uncomfortable pain in the ass,    and (at)65 I'm a bit past the need to look cool.

   



   As you may  know recently we had our 2nd engine out in our 160 hp    Cub (lycoming engine).  Had quite and adventure    with immovable objects in the forest, finally coming to    rest sans right wing, left wing pointing straight up.  Again, the    shoulder harnesses did their job to keep us out of the instrument panel, but    when the aircraft hit the ground on it's left side the side load put our heads    into the side glass and we both suffered pretty nasty cuts on our    heads. http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_17227ace-a12c-11e0-9054-001cc4c03286.html

   



   Another point for consideration is those of you who fly without crotch    straps.  When we had the first initial impact the force drove us down in    our seats, because we did not have crotch straps the lap belts rose up on our    chests.  When the aircraft impacted the second time the force simple    broke our ribs off our sternums.  Our back injuries would have    happened either way, but those readers who have experienced broken ribs will I    am sure tell you that it is not something they would want to repeat any time    soon.

   



   What you take away from this post is up to you, but you can bet Kathleen    and I  will always wear BOTH a helmet and crotch straps from this point    fwd.

   



   



   Best from Omak,

   Doug

   

   On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Brian Lloyd <[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  Let me start out by saying that I am not looking for a      fight.       



     I am interested in why people think they might want or need a      hard-shell helmet in our aircraft. I can't think of any reason why one might      be useful. I know I got mine because I wanted to look cool like the other      guys but I just can't think of why one would NEED one.

     



     Now a soft helmet that will keep your head warm in the winter as well      as keep the earspeakers on your ears and mic at your mouth when flying      aerobatics makes a lot of functional sense to me. 

     



     Just thinking out loud here.     



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western      Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]

[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)

[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)

 	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

_________________
J Rittenbach

rick(at)rvairshows.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: Helmets

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Here's a link to "Flight Helmets and Risk Management", and article I wrote for Sport Aerobatics a year ago.



	
Rick VOLKER

[quote]

[/url][url=http://db.tt/8kHbhr54]http://db.tt/8kHbhr54 

[b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:14 PM,  <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a  helmet can do for you.  The helmet is insurance.  Twice in the last 15  years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive  concussion.  Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6  (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn).   They definitely would have been career ending episodes.  Numerous times  I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy  turbulence.  You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no  helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final  result.  Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor  about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are  head traumas due to lack of a helmet.  The physics there are no different  than an airplane.  I think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork"  while wearing a helmet.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



	




I think that people misunderstand why I am asking the question. I am not asking if helmets are useful -- there is no question that they are. The real question is, are the helmets we are currently using useful. (This is actually a very similar question to the whole flight-suit question where we realized that the standard, single-layer nomex flight suit provides little or no fire protection.)

 



I got to learn a LOT about helmets last year. One of my students is very much into "extreme" cycling and decided that perhaps he should design a better helmet. (He did it as his science fair project and took 3rd place in California State for students in 6th-8th grades.) He did much of the testing of his experimental helmets at Snell Testing Labs in Sacramento. Also, I helped him develop his own energy-transfer testing apparatus for various energy-absorbing foams. It was quite interesting to see how various shell materials and construction techniques changed the momentum and energy transfer to the brain. (Having real instrumentation takes things out of the realm of opinion.)

 



The key thing we learned is that building a helmet that really protects your head from damage is amazingly complex. The helmets that have been developed for flying provide very little protection from impact. Do they help some? Probably. Do they help enough to justify using them? Not clear. Could there be other approaches that would result in better protection? Possibly.

 



One of the things I was thinking about is how the seat could protect better in the event of a lateral impact, preventing the sideways motion that puts the head into the canopy.



 -- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

	




I think that is what is called, "levity," right?

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

	




And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either. It doesn't really need one.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: Helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:48 PM, RICHARD VOLKER <rick(at)rvairshows.com (rick(at)rvairshows.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Here's a link to "Flight Helmets and Risk Management", and article I wrote for Sport Aerobatics a year ago. 



	
Rick VOLKER

 	  Quote: 	
		  

[/url][url=http://db.tt/8kHbhr54]http://db.tt/8kHbhr54  



	


	




Thank you Rick. Excellent article. It addresses some of the things I was worrying about, e.g. additional neck loads.



 -- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:47 PM, J Rittenbach <jrittenbach(at)rocketmail.com (jrittenbach(at)rocketmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I can vouch for that Pappy! I call my helmetless trauma motorcyclists "organ donors"! 

	




Oh, I agree. I wouldn't even consider riding without a full-face Snell-tested helmet and protective clothing with proper armor. (And I worked on the first automated patient-monitoring system and spent a LOT of time in the trauma and burn units. Motorcycle accidents made up the bulk of trauma admissions.)

 



But we are talking airplanes and not motorcycles. The environment is different enough to make my questions valid and not immediately dismissible. Rick Volker's article is the first real approach to the question that I have seen and even it admits necessary trade-offs.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject: helmets

Right

Doc

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 3:03 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: helmets

 

 

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

 



I think that is what is called, "levity," right?



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
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  [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: helmets

Yep.



Bill



On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:30 PM, "Roger Kemp MD" <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:



[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Right

Doc

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 3:03 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: helmets

 

 

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

 



I think that is what is called, "levity," right?



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
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[b]

gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: helmets

Have all of you thought about taking up golf and giving the keyboards a rest?

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:04 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: helmets

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either. It doesn't really need one.

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    <       - The Yak-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browsehttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com 	
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  [quote][b]

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: helmets

Nah. Old, retired, bored, to cold to fly. And we like picking on Brian. And he enjoys it too.



Bill



On Jan 5, 2012, at 2:58 PM, "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:



[quote]  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Have all of you thought about taking up golf and giving the keyboards a rest?

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 2:04 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: helmets



 

 

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:

I think your safe without a helmet. Your airplane doesn't fly!

 



And you are correct in stating that my safe doesn't have a helmet either. It doesn't really need one.



 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA) 	  Quote: 	
		    <       - The Yak-List Email Forum Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browsehttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com 	
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[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: helmets

Being from North Carolina, I would have to point you to NASCAR dot com.   

 



 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Brian Lloyd

Sent: Thu 1/5/2012 4:00 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: helmets





On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 12:14 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com> wrote:

	

	

	I think Doug has the best experience (if you want call it that) of what a helmet can do for you.  The helmet is insurance.  Twice in the last 15 years of the 50 years that I've been flying, my helmet has saved me a massive concussion.  Twice I have fallen from the wing of the yak 52 and a CJ 6 (oil and water on a wing walk is slicker than wet cow shit in a barn).  They definitely would have been career ending episodes.  Numerous times I've been slammed against the side of the canopy in areas of heavy turbulence.  You can bring up all that mass/acceleration stuff up of no helmet verses helmet, but the point of impact on the cranium is the final result.  Go to any intensive care unit at any hospital, and ask any doctor about treating motorcycle accidents and he'll tell you the main injuries are head traumas due to lack of a helmet.  The physics there are no different than an airplane.  I think it's silly worrying about looking like a "dork" while wearing a helmet.

	Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

I think that people misunderstand why I am asking the question. I am not asking if helmets are useful -- there is no question that they are. The real question is, are the helmets we are currently using useful. (This is actually a very similar question to the whole flight-suit question where we realized that the standard, single-layer nomex flight suit provides little or no fire protection.)



I got to learn a LOT about helmets last year. One of my students is very much into "extreme" cycling and decided that perhaps he should design a better helmet. (He did it as his science fair project and took 3rd place in California State for students in 6th-8th grades.) He did much of the testing of his experimental helmets at Snell Testing Labs in Sacramento. Also, I helped him develop his own energy-transfer testing apparatus for various energy-absorbing foams. It was quite interesting to see how various shell materials and construction techniques changed the momentum and energy transfer to the brain. (Having real instrumentation takes things out of the realm of opinion.)



The key thing we learned is that building a helmet that really protects your head from damage is amazingly complex. The helmets that have been developed for flying provide very little protection from impact. Do they help some? Probably. Do they help enough to justify using them? Not clear. Could there be other approaches that would result in better protection? Possibly.



One of the things I was thinking about is how the seat could protect better in the event of a lateral impact, preventing the sideways motion that puts the head into the canopy.



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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