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waterpro
Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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Tried starting the engine again.
Now has a Coy electronic "Shower of sparks" system on it that works very well.
Still can not get the engine to start.
Observations:
Engine fires on #7 cylinder every rotation. All other cylinders are cold. Exhaust comes out well from right side but very little on left
Teaspoon of fuel runs out of manifold drain when opened after trying to start.
Sparks from all plugs in correct order (1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6, when shower of sparks turned on and engine rotated by hand with plugs out.
Timing at TDC on #4 just about dead on 15 degrees when points open on both mags.
Engine will fire on #7 and then nothing until rotation comes back to #7.
Engine has not run in 14 years.
Engine had 7 hours running on it after major overhaul and was pickled up until now.
Fuel is correct to the pump and then direct to carb. Fuel filter in carb is clean. Fuel is getting to carb. but from there????
Has M9 mags. Air start.
Any ideas you may have to get her going would be truly appreciated. The owner would love to see this engine run.
Peter
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:31 am Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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You say that the timing at TDC is correct, but do you really know if your
mags are working?
You get sparks from the shower of sparks, so the plug wires are ok. The
amount of fuel out of the drain is not uncommon, after priming.
I'd also check the mag coils. But I guess at least one of them should work.
If they do not work, it is apparent when the engine becomes hot, after 30
minutes.
Then just something silly, but are you sure that the mags are well
installed? If they have been removed from the engine, then you have to be
careful when repositioning them.
The mags have a kind of an internal gear box, since the engine makes more
rpm then the prop. But I suppose you knew that.
Good luck!
Jan
(Yak 50, M14R engine)
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waterpro
Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:11 am Post subject: Re: M14P starting issues |
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A bit more info from an email discussion with a fellow M14 owner.
(Thanks for the ideas Jim.)
There are 18 brand new plugs in the engine as of yesterday and they have all been checked with the shower of sparks on and the prop rotated by hand.
We seem to have great spark with the shower of sparks, (actually George Coy's electronic system) and they seem to be timed correctly.
We have even rotated the engine with no plugs in the cylinders (but still hooked up) and get a spark from the mags when the prop is spun at a few RPM and the mags are turned on.
so we figure the problem is more of a fuel issue.
There is a manifold drain kit on the bottom 3 cylinders.
When we try to start the engine, it fires on the #7 cylinder only and then rotates until it gets back to #7 where it fires again.
When we open up the manifold drain after a failed start, there is about a tablespoon of fuel in the manifold drain lines.
It is almost as if the prime we give the engine goes directly to the #7 cylinder from the primer and the rest just accumulates in the manifold drain.
The start procedure we are using is as follows:
Open manifold drain.
Hand turn engine over 3-4 times. (to drain excess oil)
Close manifold drain.
Boost pump on, prime 5-6 seconds. boost pump off.
Turn engine over by hand 3-4 times.
Boost pump on. Prime 3 seconds.
Shower of sparks on. Mags off.
Engage air start.
When engine fires, mags on, shower of sparks off.
The engine will rotate and fire on #7 (we know this because the exhaust gets warm on that cylinder exhaust manifold after a few rotations)
then will rotate around until it hits #7 again.
Whirr....whirr....whirr...POP....whirr.... whirr ....whirr... POP.
All of the exhaust manifold pipes are cold except for #7
We are pulling the nozzle for the primer today to see if it is distributing a nice spray, or running out in a stream.
My suspicions are that the raw fuel we are getting in the manifold drain is running down from the primer, through the supercharger, and right through to the bottom of the engine.
If this is the case, it would seem that the primer is not giving an nice atomized fuel spray that would be distributed to all of the cylinders, but more of a waterfall straight down.
I feel that since the #7 cylinder is closest to the primer nozzle, that is why we are getting the fire in that cylinder.
We are cautious of over priming the engine as we do know they can lock up with oil and are worried that the same thing could happen with to much fuel.
I have the full Manual for the engine complete with all of the diagrams and annual and other inspection task cards so we can perform basic maintenance with no problems.
Peter
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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An M-14 will at least start on prime alone. If you have the intake drain kit installed, it is almost impossible to over-prime, since the excess fuel should be running out of the intake drain unless it is totally clogged up with oil.
In addition, the M-14 will actually run on ONLY the shower of sparks. Not very well mind you, because the timing is greatly retarded.
So if fuel is getting in there on prime (prime the heck out of it with the intake drain open and you should see fuel running out) then the only answer is ignition.
Has anything else been changed on the engine? Such as using automobile ignition wires and plugs? If so, plug gap is very important! (set it to .020).
Have the mags been off the engine? Has a complete MAG re-alignment been done? (see procedures and pictures from Dennis Savareese)
Difficult problem to troubleshoot! But my feeling is ignition, assuming you primed it well to begin with, and fuel is actually coming into the engine on prime.
Good luck,
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Jan Mevis
Sent: Sun 1/8/2012 4:27 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: M14P starting issues
You say that the timing at TDC is correct, but do you really know if your
mags are working?
You get sparks from the shower of sparks, so the plug wires are ok. The
amount of fuel out of the drain is not uncommon, after priming.
I'd also check the mag coils. But I guess at least one of them should work.
If they do not work, it is apparent when the engine becomes hot, after 30
minutes.
Then just something silly, but are you sure that the mags are well
installed? If they have been removed from the engine, then you have to be
careful when repositioning them.
The mags have a kind of an internal gear box, since the engine makes more
rpm then the prop. But I suppose you knew that.
Good luck!
Jan
(Yak 50, M14R engine)
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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Do not worry about over-priming if you have the intake drain kit and have the valve open. You should be able to prime the heck out of it, pull the prop through a bunch of blades and see all the excess fuel draining out of the intake drain.... at least that it what it does on my YAK-50. That also shows me fuel is actually getting in there.
Mark Bitterlich
________________________________
From: owner-m14pengines-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of waterpro
Sent: Sun 1/8/2012 8:11 AM
To: m14pengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: M14P starting issues
A bit more info from an email discussion with a fellow M14 owner.
(Thanks for the ideas Jim.)
There are 18 brand new plugs in the engine as of yesterday and they have all been checked with the shower of sparks on and the prop rotated by hand.
We seem to have great spark with the shower of sparks, (actually George Coy's electronic system) and they seem to be timed correctly.
We have even rotated the engine with no plugs in the cylinders (but still hooked up) and get a spark from the mags when the prop is spun at a few RPM and the mags are turned on.
so we figure the problem is more of a fuel issue.
There is a manifold drain kit on the bottom 3 cylinders.
When we try to start the engine, it fires on the #7 cylinder only and then rotates until it gets back to #7 where it fires again.
When we open up the manifold drain after a failed start, there is about a tablespoon of fuel in the manifold drain lines.
It is almost as if the prime we give the engine goes directly to the #7 cylinder from the primer and the rest just accumulates in the manifold drain.
The start procedure we are using is as follows:
Open manifold drain.
Hand turn engine over 3-4 times. (to drain excess oil)
Close manifold drain.
Boost pump on, prime 5-6 seconds. boost pump off.
Turn engine over by hand 3-4 times.
Boost pump on. Prime 3 seconds.
Shower of sparks on. Mags off.
Engage air start.
When engine fires, mags on, shower of sparks off.
The engine will rotate and fire on #7 (we know this because the exhaust gets warm on that cylinder exhaust manifold after a few rotations)
then will rotate around until it hits #7 again.
Whirr....whirr....whirr...POP....whirr.... whirr ....whirr... POP.
All of the exhaust manifold pipes are cold except for #7
We are pulling the nozzle for the primer today to see if it is distributing a nice spray, or running out in a stream.
My suspicions are that the raw fuel we are getting in the manifold drain is running down from the primer, through the supercharger, and right through to the bottom of the engine.
If this is the case, it would seem that the primer is not giving an nice atomized fuel spray that would be distributed to all of the cylinders, but more of a waterfall straight down.
I feel that since the #7 cylinder is closest to the primer nozzle, that is why we are getting the fire in that cylinder.
We are cautious of over priming the engine as we do know they can lock up with oil and are worried that the same thing could happen with to much fuel.
I have the full Manual for the engine complete with all of the diagrams and annual and other inspection task cards so we can perform basic maintenance with no problems.
Peter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362710#362710
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:26 am Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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Have you verified the model number of the magnetos? ie: M9F, M9-35 etc?
This is very important when setting the timing because the M9F's are
timed before TDC (14-16 degree Before TDC) and the M9-35's are timed
AFTER top dead center depending on the number stamped in the boss of the
mag in the surface (what the top cover mates to) on the forward edge.
Typically the numbers will be in the 30's. These numbers correlate to a
timing chart for the M9-35 magneto. Look for the model numbers on the
name plate above the P lead connection. M9F looks like M9 with Greek
theta symbol. M9-35 will say "M9-35". There could also be an M9-25.
Both the 25 and 35 are centrifugal advance mags. There is a chart with
the proper timing depending on the number stamped in the mag as
previously mentioned.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 1/8/2012 7:11 AM, waterpro wrote:
| Quote: |
A bit more info from an email discussion with a fellow M14 owner.
(Thanks for the ideas Jim.)
There are 18 brand new plugs in the engine as of yesterday and they have all been checked with the shower of sparks on and the prop rotated by hand.
We seem to have great spark with the shower of sparks, (actually George Coy's electronic system) and they seem to be timed correctly.
We have even rotated the engine with no plugs in the cylinders (but still hooked up) and get a spark from the mags when the prop is spun at a few RPM and the mags are turned on.
so we figure the problem is more of a fuel issue.
There is a manifold drain kit on the bottom 3 cylinders.
When we try to start the engine, it fires on the #7 cylinder only and then rotates until it gets back to #7 where it fires again.
When we open up the manifold drain after a failed start, there is about a tablespoon of fuel in the manifold drain lines.
It is almost as if the prime we give the engine goes directly to the #7 cylinder from the primer and the rest just accumulates in the manifold drain.
The start procedure we are using is as follows:
Open manifold drain.
Hand turn engine over 3-4 times. (to drain excess oil)
Close manifold drain.
Boost pump on, prime 5-6 seconds. boost pump off.
Turn engine over by hand 3-4 times.
Boost pump on. Prime 3 seconds.
Shower of sparks on. Mags off.
Engage air start.
When engine fires, mags on, shower of sparks off.
The engine will rotate and fire on #7 (we know this because the exhaust gets warm on that cylinder exhaust manifold after a few rotations)
then will rotate around until it hits #7 again.
Whirr....whirr....whirr...POP....whirr.... whirr ....whirr... POP.
All of the exhaust manifold pipes are cold except for #7
We are pulling the nozzle for the primer today to see if it is distributing a nice spray, or running out in a stream.
My suspicions are that the raw fuel we are getting in the manifold drain is running down from the primer, through the supercharger, and right through to the bottom of the engine.
If this is the case, it would seem that the primer is not giving an nice atomized fuel spray that would be distributed to all of the cylinders, but more of a waterfall straight down.
I feel that since the #7 cylinder is closest to the primer nozzle, that is why we are getting the fire in that cylinder.
We are cautious of over priming the engine as we do know they can lock up with oil and are worried that the same thing could happen with to much fuel.
I have the full Manual for the engine complete with all of the diagrams and annual and other inspection task cards so we can perform basic maintenance with no problems.
Peter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=362710#362710
|
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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It sounds like the timing is wrong or the ignition wires are mixed up. First
be sure that the timing is 14 to 16 deg as measured on the propeller flange.
This is really 24 deg on the crankshaft. Make sure that the leading finger
on the rotor is pointing at the mark on the magneto case when No 4 cylinder
is on TCD. (move the propeller in the normal direction and note the
direction of the rotor). If you are unsure of the location of the mark give
me a call.
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waterpro
Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: M14P starting issues |
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WE GOT IT RUNNING!!!! Bill is ecstatic!
Here is today's progress report:
We went over the timing with a fine tooth comb. It's bang on 15 degrees on both mags.
We cleaned everything related to the points and every contact inside both mags.
Checked the gap on the points .022-.025 mm on each respectively.
Here is where it gets interesting so pay attention! 
I know this engine needs lots of prime to get going when dry, but the #7 cylinder issue got me thinking more physics than engine mechanic.
The #7 cylinder is the closest to the primer nozzle, and the first intake that is "downhill" in the intake sequence.
We knew we had good prime to the primer line, but no idea what happened after that.
We went to remove the primer nozzle (a bugger of a job) but could not get it out even after removing the entire alternator and #7 intake manifold.
Bill has moments of greatness and figured that there was no point in removing the primer nozzle because we could just see it through the #7 intake once the pipe was removed.
We hooked all of the fuel back up and gave it a shot of prime.
Blah.....3 very small disorganized streams of fuel came out of the end of the primer nozzle almost at a right angle and went towards the front of the engine.
THIS EXPLAINS IT ALL!
The end of the primer nozzle obviously had something plugging it. We took the primer line off again and cleaned everything as well as blew it out with compressed air.
Nothing noticeable came out even though we had a rag over the primer nozzle to make sure nothing got in to the impeller or the rest of the engine.
After hooking everything back up, we tried the prime again.
Beautiful! A nice wide fan like spray of fine fuel mist went everywhere.
There was about 3 times the volume of fuel in this spray than there was in the streams before the cleaning.
We re assembled the engine and checked everything.
It took us about 10 min. to roll the plane out of the shop, prep it, go through the pre-start checklist and get her running.
She fired right up with a few small sputters and a real nice orange flame from both exhausts, along with a backyard full of white smoke.
Remember that this engine has not run in over 14 years and is a testament to its design that even with fuel primer problems it tried to start.
In conclusion it is quite simple. The primer was not putting fuel where it needed to be in order to have the impeller spin the fuel in to all of the intake pipes. It simply spurted out a disorganized glob of fuel of which half ran right in to intake #7 and the rest straight down and out the manifold drain hoses.
Thank you to all of those who gave their opinions and ides. You got us going and kept us motivated.
One more Russian radial will be in the air this spring.
Peter
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: M14P starting issues |
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Thank you so much for adding another page to the 'M14 need to know' book!
[quote]--
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