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Low-level river flying

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cubflyr(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Low-level river flying

Oh, my. Just some observations from an "old salt":



First of all: cool video. I may have had less head and more scenery going

by, but that's just me. Who and where: probably Washington state somewhere;

Husky hat and the area/weather. Doubt seriously Rio Grand. That's just the

song, "Tree Top Flyer". Written and sung here by Stephen Stills of CSN/Y

fame. About running drugs. Doesn't matter who the pilot is but he seems to

know his skills and airplane. He is flying here near the edge of his

envelope. The RV-4 looks older from what I can see.



Flying points: low level flight is very cool but your situational awareness

needs to be WAY up. At 160 kts things happen in a big hurry; there is not

much room for error. High G turns low down can make for a difficult day if

things don't go right. This pilot obviously has done this before and on this

stretch of river before, I would imagine. Some of his turns were a bit more

than 45 degrees; they had to be to get around stuff. You have to be familiar

with low-level flight to begin with. Things change quickly when you're in

the slot. A slight breeze coming off a ridge is not a bid deal if you have

more than 50 feet to play with but can make you go where you hadn't planned

if you are in the river bottom.



I learned to fly from a pipeline patrol pilot so most of my early hours were

50 to 100 fee off the ground. In a Cub, not fast flying RV. Low level flying

takes PRACTICE, as does everything else done in an airplane. This pilot

seems to be familiar with low-level. His military hair cut may or may not be

a give-away. Problems with low-level: there are rules against flying close

to people or people-made objects; to practice, you have to fly low-level but

you can get progressively lower as you get better. Things still happen

quickly.



Newbie's: don't try this at home. River running has several problems and

most of them are power lines. Not to mention trees and ridges. And radio

stations love to put antennas in river bottoms. You occasionally meet

another airplane coming the other way. Ask me how I know. If you have a

low-level route, you need to be familiar with it and know it from altitude

FIRST before going down on the deck.  Find a flat area way out somewhere

with no obstructions or people. Fly it at altitude first. Did I mention

that? And you won't see the power lines until it is just a little too late

if you are down low and coming on them quickly. Or even slowly. And

sometimes you have to go under them to get past them. Another story. The

lines are difficult to see; you look for the power poles: they are much

easier to see. The roll in the video for his turn around: low level

aerobatics can end poorly. Don't split-S out of a roll: there isn't enough

room to recover down low. 



Know your airplane. Know your area. Maintain HIGH situational awareness.

(This pilot even gets momentarily distracted before making his return run.)

Know your own limitations. Don't show off; it isn't necessary in an

airplane. Don't do this the first time with someone in the back seat. (Hey:

I saw this cool video: let's go fly the river!) Watch for power poles. You

can go under a power line if there is no where else to be but you should

have done that under controlled conditions the first time, too, and

shouldn't be in the situation that calls for that in the first place.



This reminds me of watching a snow boarding video and thinking how easy that

looks, then trying it yourself. Ouch. 



Be careful out there. 



IMHO, YMMV



Michael

RV-4 N232 Suzie Q

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Low-level river flying

very good info.  To add just a bit, I would suggest doing a mountain flying seminar.  Golden rule when doing this kind of flying is slow down, way down, your turn radius is shorted on slow flight and raised as you go faster, hence the statement low and slow.  flying low opens up a new world. I myself call anything over 1000agl nose bleed altitude.  One last note, I will not go down close to the ground if there is turbulance below 1000 ft agl and if the winds are up any.  Also if you are the person that has to watch your guages when landing, think again, you don't know your airplane.  When you can land without any help from the guages and rely on your own insticts than you can give it a try.  Generally this is called flying out the window.

Oldsfolks(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: Low-level river flying

One more point to consider about power lines.   They are  "Structures" so 

legally you have to be 500 feet from them.   

I love the low flying and as a Highway Patrol Pilot in the California pilot  

I have done a lot of it.  As stated above - you can go under the power  lines 

, BUT learn under the high part of the span .  > I didn't say that  !!!  



Bob  Olds

RV-4 , N1191X

Charleston,  Arkansas

T.gummo(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Low-level river flying

I hate too but I have to disagree but slow is not the way to decrease your 

turn radius.  As an Air to Air and Air to Ground Instructor (F-4G) in the 

military, there is a magic speed for turning your aircraft.  We called it 

"corner velocity" or Va (I am not very good with V speeds in the military we 

used names for the various speeds).  It is the min speed that you can pull 

the max G.  Therefore, as you increase your speed from the stall speed 

toward the Va speed several things happen: your available G INCREASES, your 

rate of turn (degrees/sec) INCREASES, your stall margin INCREASES and your 

turn radius DECREASES.  Now this only works if you use ALL the AVAILABLE G. 

Here is where AOA indicator helps alot.  For my plane  with a 60 Knot 

Indicated Stall speed (no flap at gross weight),

my corner velocity is 147 knots indicated at 6 G's.  (NOTE: all speeds are 

indicated, not true)



I have equations and tables but my email program won't put them into a 

message for the RV-List.

So email me directly and I will send you a word doc attachment with the 

info.



Tom "GummiBear" Gummo

Wild Weasel #1573

USAF, Major Retired

F-4G Instructor Pilot

Apple Valley, CA

Harmon Rocket-II



do not archive



http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html

t.gummo(at)verizon.net

 	  Quote: 	
		   very good info.  To add just a bit, I would suggest doing a mountain 

 flying seminar.  Golden rule when doing this kind of flying is slow down, 

 way down, your turn radius is shorted on slow flight and raised as you go 

 faster, hence the statement low and slow.  flying low opens up a new 

 world. I myself call anything over 1000agl nose bleed altitude.  One last 

 note, I will not go down close to the ground if there is turbulance below 

 1000 ft agl and if the winds are up any.  Also if you are the person that 

 has to watch your guages when landing, think again, you don't know your 

 airplane.  When you can land without any help from the guages and rely on 

 your own insticts than you can give it a try.  Generally this is called 

 flying out the window.



 --------

 kitfoxmike

 kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster

 http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike

pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: Low-level river flying

Good point, Gummi...also we need to think about load

factor and stall speed...60 degree bank = 2 X Load

Factor = raised stall speed.  



So, if someone were to be flying the slow envelope as

previously mentioned, then yanked a 60 degree turn,

there could be a surprise..low altitude, turning

stall, steep bank, no thanks...I'll take the speed. 

Helicopters we don't have to worry about this

though...nanananananana...



Paul Besing

--- Tom Gummo <T.gummo(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <T.gummo(at)verizon.net>

 

 I hate too but I have to disagree but slow is not

 the way to decrease your 

 turn radius.  As an Air to Air and Air to Ground

 Instructor (F-4G) in the 

 military, there is a magic speed for turning your

 aircraft.  We called it 

 "corner velocity" or Va (I am not very good with V

 speeds in the military we 

 used names for the various speeds).  It is the min

 speed that you can pull 

 the max G.  Therefore, as you increase your speed

 from the stall speed 

 toward the Va speed several things happen: your

 available G INCREASES, your 

 rate of turn (degrees/sec) INCREASES, your stall

 margin INCREASES and your 

 turn radius DECREASES.  Now this only works if you

 use ALL the AVAILABLE G. 

 Here is where AOA indicator helps alot.  For my

 plane  with a 60 Knot 

 Indicated Stall speed (no flap at gross weight),

 my corner velocity is 147 knots indicated at 6 G's. 

 (NOTE: all speeds are 

 indicated, not true)

 

 I have equations and tables but my email program

 won't put them into a 

 message for the RV-List.

 So email me directly and I will send you a word doc

 attachment with the 

 info.

 

 Tom "GummiBear" Gummo

 Wild Weasel #1573

 USAF, Major Retired

 F-4G Instructor Pilot

 Apple Valley, CA

 Harmon Rocket-II

 

 do not archive

 

 http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html

 t.gummo(at)verizon.net

 

 

 > very good info.  To add just a bit, I would

 suggest doing a mountain 

 > flying seminar.  Golden rule when doing this kind

 of flying is slow down, 

 > way down, your turn radius is shorted on slow

 flight and raised as you go 

 > faster, hence the statement low and slow.  flying

 low opens up a new 

 > world. I myself call anything over 1000agl nose

 bleed altitude.  One last 

 > note, I will not go down close to the ground if

 there is turbulance below 

 > 1000 ft agl and if the winds are up any.  Also if

 you are the person that 

 > has to watch your guages when landing, think

 again, you don't know your 

 > airplane.  When you can land without any help from

 the guages and rely on 

 > your own insticts than you can give it a try. 

 Generally this is called 

 > flying out the window.

 >

 > --------

 > kitfoxmike

 > kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster

 > http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike

 

 

 

 



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__________________________________________________

mike
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Low-level river flying

Gummi,

So true, I responded so fast that I left out the need to maintain va and above on turns.  When I went through a mountain flying seminar and did the flight instruction I got the fella that had over 20,000 hrs.  way cool, we did all kinds of stuff in the mountains, one of which was to try a high speed turn and a turn at va.  Really inlightening, we were in a small area and it was very appearent that the high speed turn was not going to make it.

low pass

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Low-level river flying

Now this is flying!!  Quite a few bayous and a few rivers in my part of the country that work nicely for this type of flying.  As for speed, slow is not what you want when flying like this.  Too fast reduces reaction time.  Too slow, the maneuverability is reduced and proximity to stall too close.  120-140 mph depending on the nature of the turns.  



Reminds me of an old Cub flying expression.  Accidents experience while flying slow will only barely kill you.



Please hold the warnings.  I know the FARs, I know my plane and I know the geography.  I also know power lines are strung across, sometimes not easily seen.  I never fly down a river or bayou cold.  I know the area and where the obstacles are.  If boats or people are on present, I'll pull up well clear.

mike
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Low-level river flying

always keep a safe margine, all this has made me think and come to think about it, most of this flying and meneuvering is covered in private pilot training, at least it was for me.  ground reference meneuvers and steep turns, etc.  Most of the low flying is just the same but closer to the ground and next to trees.  My advice is if you can't maintain exactly the altitude you are flying or can't do ground reference meneuvers than grab an instructor and go fly.  If we are strickly talking rv's here and you have been not flying while building your machine, and your moving from a cessna to the rv, my advice is get some instruction in an rv before flying the rv at any altitude or circumstance.

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Low-level river flying

I have no desire for that type of flight. I'm sure it is a rush, but I equate it with the guys going down the freeway on their crotch rockets at 90 mph doing wheelies. It's a thrill until one mistake or something unexpected happens and you're pretty much dead. To each his own, but my life is worth more than a cheap thrill.

joplin1(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Low-level river flying

This has been a great review on Maximum Performance Flying.  Top =

performers like Bob Hoover nibble at the edges of the envelope so often =

that if becomes second nature.  But you need to be perfectly coordinated =

as you approach that critical AOA (i.e. no skid or slip), or the =

airplane will bite you in the butt and snap roll ... not a good outcome =

close to the ground. The rate at which you apply back pressure on the =

stick is just as important.  Too quick and you will tend to overshoot =

that optimum AOA.  Too slow and your turn radius will increase.



Back to that terrific video.  We all love to get down in the weeds, but =

it's a roll of the dice.  You won't see wires and you won't see ducks =

coming around the bend in time to avoid them!  The Koreans and =

Vietnamese put juicy targets down in narrow canyons.  A friend of mine =

hit a cable dead center with an F-80 but was able to limp home.  It =

ripped back through the gun bay and thankfully snapped before it reached =

his cockpit.  If he had been turning, it would have grabbed a wing.  If =

he had been a foot lower, it would have taken off his head and vertical =

stab.



---

flynlow(at)usaviator.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: Low-level river flying

I have two comments on Helicopters.



First: They don't really fly, they are just so ugly that the earth repulses

them! :}



Now before you all go nuts, that was just a joke!



Second: The most beautiful sound I ever heard was Whomp whomp whomp back in

1971 during a fire fight near an LZ. I will never know his name, but the man

and his crew had more guts than anyone I have ever seen. Pulling guys out

day after day.... God bless you where ever you are......



Bud Silvers

RV-8 Finishing.



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