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2.5" IVO prop spacer
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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle. The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself. The spacer is required because Ivo blades will flex forward during full hp operations.

Also, I know people like Ivo props, but their manufacturing standards for them are pretty poor. The spacer blocks are too thick and cause the crush plate to bend (the blocks are .015 to .020" too thick. On the last prop I installed for a customer I had to put the blocks on my Bridgeport to flycut them to match the blade thickness). If you put a prop protractor on the blades after you get them adjusted you'll find there's a .5 to 1 degree difference between blades because of variations in either the welding of the adjustment arms on the torsion rod or how the rod is attached in the blade.

 Last, do not neglect the torque spec requirement. You have to run the engine for one minute, then retorque the bolts, run it for two minutes, retorque, run four minutes, retorque, run eight minutes, retorque....and so on until you reach two hours of running. After that you're supposed to retorque every two hours of running time.

 Read Ivo's service bulletin here;  http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htm about using stainless steel tape to detect movement of the blades that can lead to blade loss or cracking.

My not so humble opinion is to get rid or it and get another brand.

 



Rick Girard



On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM, tombaisley <tombaisley(at)yahoo.com (tombaisley(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "tombaisley" <tombaisley(at)yahoo.com (tombaisley(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Can anybody describe this?

 steel or aluminum?

 Thru holes with long bolts? Or is the spacer bolted to the engine hub and then drilled and tapped for the propeller?

 What bolts are used?

 Source for bolts?

 

 Thanks

 Tom

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364389#364389

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Tom,



Why  regard the advice of one not so humble person who has had nothing but a boat load of trouble with his Kolb projects,  when there are lots of other satisfied users who have had thousands  of trouble free hours with the same products?



On Jan 21, 2012, at 9:57 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My not so humble opinion is to get rid or it and get another brand.

	


 [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: Re: 2.5

[quote="rickofudall"]  Last, do not neglect the torque spec requirement. You have to run the engine for one minute, then retorque the bolts, run it for two minutes, retorque, run four minutes, retorque, run eight minutes, retorque....and so on until you reach two hours of running. After that you're supposed to retorque every two hours of running time. [quote]



Never heard of that, never done it, not had any problems.



[quote] Read Ivo's service bulletin here;ï¿½ http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htmï¿½about using stainless steel tape to detect movement of the blades that can lead to blade loss or cracking.[quote]



That is for 3:1 gearboxes, 3 cylinder engines, direct drives or other applications that create harmonic vibrations. If you are using a 447 with a 2.58:1 ratio, or other reduction that does not create harmonics, it doesn't apply to you.



[quote] My not so humble opinion is to get rid of it and get another brand.

Rick Girard [quote]



My not so humble opinion is that I have been using my 2 blade 68" Ivo for many years and hundreds of hours on my 582 powered MKIII, and I like it just fine. I would be quite surprised if an Ivo on a 447 is going to be any cause of grief.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

I like IVO's also...never had a problem...less 

than 200 hours using them however..



The spacers are cosmetic anyhow...Think  that 

came from the horses mouth.?  Herb

At 10:09 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

[quote]



[quote="rickofudall"]  Last, do not neglect the 

torque spec requirement. You have to run the 

engine for one minute, then retorque the bolts, 

run it for two minutes, retorque, run four 

minutes, retorque, run eight minutes, 

retorque....and so on until you reach two hours 

of running. After that you're supposed to 

retorque every two hours of running time. [quote]



Never heard of that, never done it, not had any problems.



[quote] Read Ivo's service bulletin here;ï¿½ 

http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htm 

(http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htm)ï¿½about 

using stainless steel tape to detect movement of 

the blades that can lead to blade loss or cracking.[quote]



That is for 3:1 gearboxes, 3 cylinder engines, 

direct drives or other applications that create 

harmonic vibrations. If you are using a 447 with 

a 2.58:1 ratio, or other reduction that does not 

create harmonics, it doesn't apply to you.



[quote] My not so humble opinion is to get rid of it and get another brand.

Rick Girard  	  Quote: 	
		  



My not so humble opinion is that I have been 

using my 2 blade 68" Ivo for many years and 

hundreds of hours on my 582 powered MKIII, and I 

like it just fine. I would be quite surprised if 

an Ivo on a 447 is going to be any cause of grief.



--------

Richard Pike

Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org

Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, 

the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364446#364446

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:17 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle. The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 	
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor supply.

 Larry 

  [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually have them next day...Herb 



 At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:



 

 [quote]On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle. The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.



   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor supply.

 Larry 



 [b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all  places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually have them  next day...Herb 



At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 when I needed prop bolts for my warp drive on the  912...   aircraft spruce did not show them in the catalog...   however when they were called they had them.

  

 boyd young

   [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

I dispensed with the spacers last time I used a two blade...    Long time ago...and I think I ran into the same problem... Herb 



 At 01:20 PM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 [quote]Herb, When I tried to install a two blade Ivo on a B box 447 on a trike, I could see the 1/4 inch thick crush plate bending because the spacers were too thick. If I only torqued the screws that went through the blocks I could slip an .015" feeler gage between the plate and the blade. I didn't want to make the assumption that the blocks crush over time so I machined them to match the blades, end of problem.



 Rick



 On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   Richard, Those instructions came with both an ultralite Ivo and Magnum that came to me in 2007. I shipped the Magnum back and never mounted it on my HKS, but the ultralite was put on a 2.58 B box 447. I used the same settings on a three blade of unknown year on a 337 powered MiniMax I had for awhile.



  Rick



 

  On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

  [quote="rickofudall"] Â Last, do not neglect the torque spec requirement. You have to run the engine for one minute, then retorque the bolts, run it for two minutes, retorque, run four minutes, retorque, run eight minutes, retorque....and so on until you reach two hours of running. After that you're supposed to retorque every two hours of running time. [quote]



  Never heard of that, never done it, not had any problems.



  [quote] Read Ivo's service bulletin here;ï¿½  http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htm ( http://www.ivoprop.com/servicebul2.htm ) ï¿½about using stainless steel tape to detect movement of the blades that can lead to blade loss or cracking.[quote]



  That is for 3:1 gearboxes, 3 cylinder engines, direct drives or other applications that create harmonic vibrations. If you are using a 447 with a 2.58:1 ratio, or other reduction that does not create harmonics, it doesn't apply to you.



  [quote] My not so humble opinion is to get rid of it and get another brand.

  Rick Girard [quote]



  My not so humble opinion is that I have been using my 2 blade 68" Ivo for many years and hundreds of hours on my 582 powered MKIII, and I like it just fine. I would be quite surprised if an Ivo on a 447 is going to be any cause of grief.



  --------

  Richard Pike

  Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

  richard (at) bcchapel(dot)org

  Kingsport, TN 3TN0

  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

  Hebrews 11:1



 



 

  Read this topic online here:



   http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=364446#364446



 



 



 



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  k">http://forums.matronics.com

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  e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

  t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

  ===========



 



  



 

  -- 

  Zulu Delta

  Mk IIIC

  Thanks, Homer GBYM



  It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

  Â  - Groucho Marx

 



  



 

 -- 

 Zulu Delta

 Mk IIIC

 Thanks, Homer GBYM



 It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

 Â  - Groucho Marx

 



 

 [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

 

For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor supply.

Larry 



 	  Quote: 	
		       Larry C/Kolbers: I get my 8.8 prop bolts at the local fastener store.  Drill the heads myself for safety wire. john h 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2

  [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

I agree with you Tom I have a lot more hours with a IVO than a Warp and I had a warp fail me in a short period of flying time

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

 

I agree with you Tom I have a lot more hours with a IVO than a Warp and I had a warp fail me in a short period of flying time

[b]Ellery Batchelder Jr.[/b]



 	  Quote: 	
		    I have 3,000+ hours on Warp Drive solid carbon fiber blades over the last 18 years.  Never had any kind of problem with WD products, even after sending exhaust pipes, bolts, etc., through them. Believe we determined recently the Warp Drive blades Ellery was using at the time of their failure were probably first generation cored blades built by the initial Warp Drive Company.  Daryl has been the owner/manager of WD for more than 20 years.  His company, the second generation company, has only produced solid carbon fiber blades.  WD is a big producer of solid carbon fiber blades for the airboat industry, using the same technique to build  them as the UL/light plane community blades.  Some of those six blade WD props are being turned by 350/454 Chevy's, 6 cylinder aircraft engines, and other high powered exotic hot rod airboat engines.  I am sure none of the air boat gang are using cored WD blades. I have also flown factory Kolbs with IVO props.  They performed well.  Only problem I can remember was the SS tape pulling loose and cutting my fingers trying to repair and replace. Remember seeing Ivo walking around Sun and Fun many, many years ago with an IVO prop over his shoulder.  That was his first visit to Lakeland, with his prop.  He was trying to generate interest to get his prop shop up and running.  Cannot remember what year that was, but probably mid-80's.  	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3

  [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Ellery, if I understand correctly the "warp drive Prop that you had trouble with was made by a company that doesn't exist anymore, in fact taken over or purchased by Daryl, the current warp drive manufacturer. Is that correct? I am a bit confused, in that I have a Warp Drive prop from Daryl that I recently managed to send a hefty pair of side cutters through, and it didn't even leave a mark on the blades. I know that they went through them, because they hit the roof of my hanger and that is 15 feet off the ground.

 

If my information is correct and Daryl had nothing to do with the manufacture of your defective prop, fairness would require me to differentiate between the two when a discussion of Warp drive props was mentioned.  

 Larry

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 4:17 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  

 

  

I agree with you Tom I have a lot more hours with a IVO than a Warp and I had a warp fail me in a short period of flying time 

[b]Ellery Batchelder Jr.[/b] 



 	  Quote: 	
		    I have 3,000+ hours on Warp Drive solid carbon fiber blades over the last 18 years.  Never had any kind of problem with WD products, even after sending exhaust pipes, bolts, etc., through them. Believe we determined recently the Warp Drive blades Ellery was using at the time of their failure were probably first generation cored blades built by the initial Warp Drive Company.  Daryl has been the owner/manager of WD for more than 20 years.  His company, the second generation company, has only produced solid carbon fiber blades.  WD is a big producer of solid carbon fiber blades for the airboat industry, using the same technique to build  them as the UL/light plane community blades.  Some of those six blade WD props are being turned by 350/454 Chevy's, 6 cylinder aircraft engines, and other high powered exotic hot rod airboat engines.  I am sure none of the air boat gang are using cored WD blades. I have also flown factory Kolbs with IVO props.  They performed well.  Only problem I can remember was the SS tape pulling loose and cutting my fingers trying to repair and replace. Remember seeing Ivo walking around Sun and Fun many, many years ago with an IVO prop over his shoulder.  That was his first visit to Lakeland, with his prop.  He was trying to generate interest to get his prop shop up and running.  Cannot remember what year that was, but probably mid-80's.   	
0  	  Quote: 	
		    	
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2  	  Quote: 	
		    	
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4

	


-- 

If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

 



  [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote: 



=============

When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all 

places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually 

have them next day...Herb



At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard 

<<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle. 

The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec 

bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than 

trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't 

find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor supply.

Larry




	


--

Ron (at) KFHU

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

the bottom line it is a warp drive prop !  I don't get free props from them and I am not happy about losing an airplane because if it ,and it could have been worse I could have lost  my life over it, I am not saying anything else about this subject it accidentally got back on this list because William sullivan asked me a question about what was happening with it and I thought it was a direct email from him when I replied back to him 

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Seems like I read that the real hard bolts aren't recommended for prop bolts because they are a bit brittle. My prop hub (PowerFin) requires a much lower torque rating than the softer SAE 5 bolts can handle anyway so that is what I use.  

Also I use a standard nut on my prop bolts so that I can get accurate torque settings. My prop flange isn't threaded. Then I put a nylock nut on as a lock nut.

Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Ron  (at)  KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

 Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

 ---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:

 =============

 When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all

 places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually

 have them next day...Herb

 At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 >On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard

 ><<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle.

 >The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec

 >bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than

 >trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 >

 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 >For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't

 >find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor supply.

 >Larry

 >

 --

 Ron (at) KFHU

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:40 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Sounds as though you are concerned about compromising a lawsuit. Just to be clear, I don't get free props from Warp either, but I did get what I paid for and that was a damn good strong prop for my airplane. I don't have an axe to grind in any of this, just wanted some clarification since what was called a Warp drive by you, didn't match with what I have on my plane.

 Larry

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Ellery Batchelder Jr <elleryweld(at)aol.com (elleryweld(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote] the bottom line it is a warp drive prop !  I don't get free props from them and I am not happy about losing an airplane because if it

 [b]

_________________
do not archive

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Hi Rick

I looked into the "hardness issue some while ago". The bolts are not "brittle" they are stronger in tensile sheer and tension. Its the same with grade 8 bolts they are much stronger than 5 which in turn are equivalent to AN bolts, and same with grade 10 bolts. The price difference is small so I opt for the stronger stuff whenever I can. I agree that in most applications the cheapest bolt we can find is more than adequate, but as a matter of personal satisfaction, and cheap prop for my ego I spend a few pannies more and buy the stronger ones. Hell if I was bigger, better, richer, and better looking maybe I would not want to over compensate but it is what it is, or maybe I just like the best quality whether I need it or not.  

Here is a table I found by a quick search, I am sure there are better tables out there.

http://www.engineersedge.com/hex_bolt_identification.htm

==================================

---- Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

=============

Seems like I read that the real hard bolts aren't recommended for prop

bolts because they are a bit brittle. My prop hub (PowerFin) requires a

much lower torque rating than the softer SAE 5 bolts can handle anyway so

that is what I use.

Also I use a standard nut on my prop bolts so that I can get accurate

torque settings. My prop flange isn't threaded. Then I put a nylock nut on

as a lock nut.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of

 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

 ---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:

 =============

 When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all

 places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually

 have them next day...Herb

 At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 >On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard

 ><<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 >Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle.

 >The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec

 >bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than

 >trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 >

 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 >For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't

 >find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor

 supply.

 >Larry

 >

 --

 Ron (at) KFHU

--

Ron (at) KFHU

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

I don't mean to butt into a private conversation, but when I decided to put a spacer between my Warp Drive Prop, and my HKS I asked about finding AN aircraft bolts for it and someone informed me that the 8.8 bolts were what was needed and the harder bolts were not better for the simple reason that they were too hard and therefore brittle. I may be wrong, but I believe it was Daryl of Warp Drive that told me so. 

 For what it is worth!

Larry

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Ron  (at)  KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

 Hi Rick

 I looked into the "hardness issue some while ago". The bolts are not "brittle" they are stronger in tensile sheer and tension. Its the same with grade 8 bolts they are much stronger than 5 which in turn are equivalent to AN bolts, and same with grade 10 bolts. The price difference is small so I opt for the stronger stuff whenever I can. I agree that in most applications the cheapest bolt we can find is more than adequate, but as a matter of personal satisfaction, and cheap prop for my ego I spend a few pannies more and buy the stronger ones. Hell if I was bigger, better, richer, and better looking maybe I would not want to over compensate but it is what it is, or maybe I just like the best quality whether I need it or not.  

 Here is a table I found by a quick search, I am sure there are better tables out there.

 http://www.engineersedge.com/hex_bolt_identification.htm

 =========

 ---- Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 =============

 Seems like I read that the real hard bolts aren't recommended for prop

 bolts because they are a bit brittle. My prop hub (PowerFin) requires a

 much lower torque rating than the softer SAE 5 bolts can handle anyway so

 that is what I use.

 Also I use a standard nut on my prop bolts so that I can get accurate

 torque settings. My prop flange isn't threaded. Then I put a nylock nut on

 as a lock nut.

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

 >

 > Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of

 > 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

 >

 >

 > ---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:

 >

 > =============

 > When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all

 > places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually

 > have them next day...Herb

 >

 > At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 >

 >

 > >On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard

 > ><<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 > >Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle.

 > >The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec

 > >bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than

 > >trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 > >

 >

 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > >For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't

 > >find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor

 > supply.

 > >Larry

 > >

 >

 > --

 > Ron (at) KFHU

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 --

 Ron (at) KFHU

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 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Yes I have run into this myth several times over the years, it reminds me of the over square myth that was a fairly widespread reality back in the 70's. It  finally went away, not sure if it was me or that people finally thought about it. 

In any case and the best comparison I can make is the difference between 1100 aluminum and 2024 aluminum. Or another away is that by the time you would reach the brittle factor between grade 5 and grade 8 the grade 5 has already failed, I am too lazy to look for fatigue or brittle factor between the grades but as a SWAG I say we would not find much of a difference if any. 

But I would love to be corrected, anytime I learn something factually new I am happy.

Ron Mason

============================

---- Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

=============

I don't mean to butt into a private conversation, but when I decided to put

a spacer between my Warp Drive Prop, and my HKS I asked about finding AN

aircraft bolts for it and someone informed me that the 8.8 bolts were what

was needed and the harder bolts were not better for the simple reason that

they were too hard and therefore brittle. I may be wrong, but I believe it

was Daryl of Warp Drive that told me so.

For what it is worth!

Larry

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Rick

 I looked into the "hardness issue some while ago". The bolts are not

 "brittle" they are stronger in tensile sheer and tension. Its the same with

 grade 8 bolts they are much stronger than 5 which in turn are equivalent to

 AN bolts, and same with grade 10 bolts. The price difference is small so I

 opt for the stronger stuff whenever I can. I agree that in most

 applications the cheapest bolt we can find is more than adequate, but as a

 matter of personal satisfaction, and cheap prop for my ego I spend a few

 pannies more and buy the stronger ones. Hell if I was bigger, better,

 richer, and better looking maybe I would not want to over compensate but it

 is what it is, or maybe I just like the best quality whether I need it or

 not.  

 Here is a table I found by a quick search, I am sure there are better

 tables out there.

 http://www.engineersedge.com/hex_bolt_identification.htm

 ==================================

 ---- Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 =============

 Seems like I read that the real hard bolts aren't recommended for prop

 bolts because they are a bit brittle. My prop hub (PowerFin) requires a

 much lower torque rating than the softer SAE 5 bolts can handle anyway so

 that is what I use.

 Also I use a standard nut on my prop bolts so that I can get accurate

 torque settings. My prop flange isn't threaded. Then I put a nylock nut on

 as a lock nut.

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:

 > 

 >

 > Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of

 > 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

 >

 >

 > ---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:

 >

 > =============

 > When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all

 > places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually

 > have them next day...Herb

 >

 > At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 >

 >

 > >On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard

 > ><<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > >Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle.

 > >The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec

 > >bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than

 > >trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 > >

 >

 >

 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > >For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't

 > >find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor

 > supply.

 > >Larry

 > >

 >

 > --

 > Ron (at) KFHU

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 --

 Ron (at) KFHU

-- 

*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email

address before sending.*

--

Ron (at) KFHU

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: 2.5" IVO prop spacer

Okay if I must, 

 I Googled, something that anyone can do, I like the vise test but its really meaningless unless it is done in a controlled comparative setting. 

go to the following link and read it,



http://www.rockcrawler.com/techreports/fasteners/index.asp



Now AN bolts have nominal 125,000 PSI and grade 8 have 150,000; now no one has to make AN bolts to the minimum rating they can be much higher, in turn grade 8 or 10.9 will be made to meet 150,000 PSI or more. 



these are facts, it ain't as sexy as placing a bolt in a vice and torturing it, even though I am pretty sure that 150K is still 150K and 125K is still 125K even in a vice. If I get bored today and I am in the hanger I'll use your test just to see... and if its really interesting I'll even upload it to Youtube. But do me a favor first and read what is in the links I provided, going on faith is good but sometimes it can be blinding to science or better yet the scientific method.



I am happy with 10.9 and grade 8 and above for any conceivable application that I have so far used, and have been so for many years, never a failure or a problem. However AN bolts are fine and I use them too, and many times amazingly enough they are less costly than grade 8, excluding shipping.





---- Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote: 



=============

Not using Grade 8 bolts for propellers is not an old wive's tale. Several

LycoSaurus engined experimentals have lost a prop when they let go.

Grade 5, hardware store bolts are not the equivalent of AN bolts. Grade 5

bolts are carbon steel, AN (same as the obsolete grade 6 bolts, are alloy.

Grade 5 bolts are weaker when bent, AN, grade 6, are stronger.

Take a grade 8 bolt, put it in a vice and bend it with a hammer, then do

the same with the same size AN bolt.



Rick Girard



On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Yes I have run into this myth several times over the years, it reminds me

 of the over square myth that was a fairly widespread reality back in the

 70's. It  finally went away, not sure if it was me or that people finally

 thought about it.

 In any case and the best comparison I can make is the difference between

 1100 aluminum and 2024 aluminum. Or another away is that by the time you

 would reach the brittle factor between grade 5 and grade 8 the grade 5 has

 already failed, I am too lazy to look for fatigue or brittle factor between

 the grades but as a SWAG I say we would not find much of a difference if

 any.



 But I would love to be corrected, anytime I learn something factually new

 I am happy.



 Ron Mason

 ============================

 ---- Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 =============

 I don't mean to butt into a private conversation, but when I decided to put

 a spacer between my Warp Drive Prop, and my HKS I asked about finding AN

 aircraft bolts for it and someone informed me that the 8.8 bolts were what

 was needed and the harder bolts were not better for the simple reason that

 they were too hard and therefore brittle. I may be wrong, but I believe it

 was Daryl of Warp Drive that told me so.

 For what it is worth!

 Larry

 On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:



 > 

 >

 > Hi Rick

 > I looked into the "hardness issue some while ago". The bolts are not

 > "brittle" they are stronger in tensile sheer and tension. Its the same

 with

 > grade 8 bolts they are much stronger than 5 which in turn are equivalent

 to

 > AN bolts, and same with grade 10 bolts. The price difference is small so

 I

 > opt for the stronger stuff whenever I can. I agree that in most

 > applications the cheapest bolt we can find is more than adequate, but as

 a

 > matter of personal satisfaction, and cheap prop for my ego I spend a few

 > pannies more and buy the stronger ones. Hell if I was bigger, better,

 > richer, and better looking maybe I would not want to over compensate but

 it

 > is what it is, or maybe I just like the best quality whether I need it or

 > not.  

 >

 > Here is a table I found by a quick search, I am sure there are better

 > tables out there.

 >

 > http://www.engineersedge.com/hex_bolt_identification.htm

 >

 >

 > ==================================

 > ---- Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 >

 > =============

 > Seems like I read that the real hard bolts aren't recommended for prop

 > bolts because they are a bit brittle. My prop hub (PowerFin) requires a

 > much lower torque rating than the softer SAE 5 bolts can handle anyway so

 > that is what I use.

 >

 > Also I use a standard nut on my prop bolts so that I can get accurate

 > torque settings. My prop flange isn't threaded. Then I put a nylock nut

 on

 > as a lock nut.

 >

 > Rick Neilsen

 > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 >

 > On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Ron (at) KFHU <captainron1(at)cox.net>

 wrote:

 >

 > > 

 > >

 > > Ace has a good selection of metric bolts, 8.8 and the stronger ones of

 > > 10.9 which is what I buy for the Kolb Suzuki motor.

 > >

 > >

 > > ---- Herb Gayheart <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:

 > >

 > > =============

 > > When I needed some 8.8's , I found them at Advanced Auto , of all

 > > places....They stock the long ones for some reason and can usually

 > > have them next day...Herb

 > >

 > > At 11:14 AM 1/21/2012, you wrote:

 > >

 > >

 > > >On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 7:57 AM, Richard Girard

 > > ><<mailto:aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > > >Your 447 has threaded and unthreaded holes on a 75mm bolt circle.

 > > >The threaded holes are 8mm - 1.25 mm pitch. You want to use 8.8 spec

 > > >bolts and it's easier to use lock nuts to secure them rather than

 > > >trying to find bolts with drilled heads, or drilling them yourself.

 > > >

 > >

 > >

 >

 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 > > >For what its worth, I needed some 8.8 bolts for my IVO and couldn't

 > > >find them anywhere. I eventually found them at a John Deere tractor

 > > supply.

 > > >Larry

 > > >

 > >

 > > --

 > > Ron (at) KFHU

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 >

 > --

 > Ron (at) KFHU

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 --

 *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email

 address before sending.*



 --

 Ron (at) KFHU


	




-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM



It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

  - Groucho Marx



--

Ron (at) KFHU

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