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burping the 912

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nimbusaviation(at)YAHOO.C
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: burping the 912

There is a thread running in the yahoo canard list concerning a recent fatal (lycoming or similar I suspect) hand-propping incident at Gillespie Field /CA, which prompts me to this posting. There must have been a lot of accumulated experience here and elsewhere with the 'oil-burp' procedure for the 912. Does anyone know of any accidental starts? Sure, this query belongs on the rotaxEngine list perhaps - i'm not yet subscribed to that - on my list to do. Quick look - i found nothing.



Glenn Rainey (with Martin Burns)



G-OJHL classic monowheel

Cumbernauld, Scotland

 [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: burping the 912

Glen,



No, there are no accidental start incidents as a result of the oil-burp procedure for the 9xx engines.

It's virtually impossible to hand prop start a Rotax 9xx engine.  I remember from my Rotax class that there is a minimum RPM required before the CDI ignition can function.  I don't remember the exact RPM (400 RPM??) value, but you'd have to be an octopus built like Arnold Schwartzenegger to pull enough blades through to turn it that fast.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Feb 1, 2012, at 7:20 AM, Glenn Rainey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There is a thread running in the yahoo canard list concerning a recent fatal (lycoming or similar I suspect) hand-propping incident at Gillespie Field /CA, which prompts me to this posting. There must have been a lot of accumulated experience here and elsewhere with the 'oil-burp' procedure for the 912. Does anyone know of any accidental starts? Sure, this query belongs on the rotaxEngine list perhaps - i'm not yet subscribed to that - on my list to do. Quick look - i found nothing.



Glenn Rainey (with Martin Burns)



G-OJHL classic monowheel

Cumbernauld, Scotland

  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: burping the 912

Hi! Glenn 

Good airmanship necessitates mag. checks every time the engine is shut down and this is vital towards preventing the incident you relate. There was an incident just prior to Christmas at Wickenby due to hand propping to clear flooded carbs when the pilot jumped out without locking the brakes and switching the mags off. The engine fired up and swung round into the friends nearby parked plane with the propeller finishing up chewing the fuselage to bits. (Not Rotax though!)

Whilst the burping procedure is preferable to be done on a long standing cold engine I would advocate not doing it on a hot engine because “murphys law” goes a long way to have it happen.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Rainey

Sent: 01 February 2012 13:21

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: burping the 912

 

There is a thread running in the yahoo canard list concerning a recent fatal (lycoming or similar I suspect) hand-propping incident at Gillespie Field /CA, which prompts me to this posting. There must have been a lot of accumulated experience here and elsewhere with the 'oil-burp' procedure for the 912. Does anyone know of any accidental starts? Sure, this query belongs on the rotaxEngine list perhaps - i'm not yet subscribed to that - on my list to do. Quick look - i found nothing.



 



Glenn Rainey (with Martin Burns)



G-OJHL classic monowheel



Cumbernauld, Scotland



 



 





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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: Re: burping the 912

I attended the Rotax maintenance course held at the LAA in the UK. 



The burping process was discussed at some length, the conclusion being that unless you have no idea how much oil is in the engine - don't do it. 



The burping process simply returns oil to the tank.  For a cold engine this means you are rotating and clearing oil off parts that really need all the oil they can get in the first seconds after start up.



Except after an oil/filter change l do not burp my engine at all.  I know the oil level in the tank when cold that corresponds to 'enough oil'.  This procedure leaves oil in the engine and hopefully will result in less wear over it's life.



The CDI RPM threshold is too high to enable hand crack starts of Rotax 912/914 engines.  But that is no reason for complacency when turning the engine - always treat as live.



John

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:37 am Post subject: burping the 912

I have a vague memory that the burping recommendation was something to do with checking that oil hadn't drained down into the sump

which might cause hydraulic lock. Could be other ways to check, such as quantity of oil in the tank.

Another vague memory, (sorry for the foggy thoughts!) is that one chap in Devon or Cornwall regularly hand started his 912 so I

am prepared to accept that hand starting is possible. Think about the gearing. 

Graham

        From: John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net>

  To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2012, 9:52

 Subject: Re: burping the 912

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>



I attended the Rotax maintenance course held at the LAA in the UK. 



The burping process was discussed at some length, the conclusion being that unless you have no idea how much oil is in the engine - don't do it. 



The burping process simply returns oil to the tank.  For a cold engine this means you are rotating and clearing oil off parts that really need all the oil they can get in the first seconds after start up.



Except after an oil/filter change l do not burp my engine at all.  I know the  oil level in the tank when cold that corresponds to 'enough oil'.  This procedure leaves oil in the engine and hopefully will result in less wear over it's life.



The CDI RPM threshold is too high to enable hand crack starts of Rotax 912/914 engines.  But that is no reason for complacency when turning the engine - always treat as live.



John



--------

John Wighton

Europa XS trigear G-IPOD





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/;  --> http://forums.matronics.com [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:32 am Post subject: burping the 912

On 02/02/2012 10:52 AM, John Wighton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The burping process simply returns oil to the tank.  For a cold

 engine this means you are rotating and clearing oil off parts that

 really need all the oil they can get in the first seconds after start

 up.


	


Not true. The burping only moves oil that has dripped to the bottom of

the crankcase to the oil tank. This oil is not participating in any

lubrication at all. It is just sitting there in a useless pool at the

bottom.



Contrary, rotating the prop also turns the oil pump. This pumps new oil

into all the bearings, so that when the engine starts there is fresh oil

in the bearings. (The oil that was there previously has dripped away and

is now at the bottom of the crankcase, waiting to be transferred back to

the oil tank.



Sy, with burping you move away useless oil and replace it with oil at

places that matter.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Except after an oil/filter change l do not burp my engine at all.  I

 know the oil level in the tank when cold that corresponds to 'enough

 oil'.  This procedure leaves oil in the engine and hopefully will

 result in less wear over it's life.


	


Not burping the engine actually increases wear. And you risk a hydraulic

lock some day, when a surplus of crankcase oil has seaped into a

cylinder. This will destroy your engine in a split second when the

starter cranks the engine.



Who is that clown who told you not to burp your engine?



Frans

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: Re: burping the 912

Frans,

As with all things in life you have to listen to advice from 'experts', l am sufficiently convinced that the LAA selected the instructor for the Rotax course on the basis that he knows his stuff.



At the course we examined parts and the instructor also gave a description  of exactly what happens during all phases of operation of the engine.



He showed parts that had premature wear due to oil starvation.



As an aeronautical engineer l took the advice given by that instructor and act on it.  If you want to do something else that is fine by me.



Put simply, if a component (say a cam) has oil on it and it is turned against other parts the oil WILL be disturbed.  If the oil is disturbed some of it may vacate to another place (eventually in the tank if cranking).



I appreciate that you have your own opinion, my opinion and the LAA course instructors advice is - do not hand crank unless there is a good reason to do so.



Maybe we can meet at EHHO and chew the fat........

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: burping the 912

On 02/03/2012 01:41 PM, John Wighton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Frans, As with all things in life you have to listen to advice from

 'experts',


	


Well, what is an expert? I'm long enough on this planet to have seen

many so called experts to fail... and to see once issued recommendations

from experts to be hastily revoked somewhat later in history by another

group of experts.



 	  Quote: 	
		   l am sufficiently convinced that the LAA selected the

 instructor for the Rotax course on the basis that he knows his

 stuff.


	


Of course all based on the assumption that the LAA has all the knowledge

to judge and value someone else's knowledge.



 	  Quote: 	
		   He showed parts that had premature wear due to oil starvation.


	


Sure. But this doesn't say that it was due to excess hand cranking, or

the lack of it. Or just due to something else.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Put simply, if a component (say a cam) has oil on it and it is turned

 against other parts the oil WILL be disturbed.


	


Yes, and this happens less when it is done directly after shutdown than

when it is done directly before the next start?



BTW what is exactly the difference between a running engine and one that

is being handcranked? Why would the latter "disturb the oil" more?



 	  Quote: 	
		   I appreciate that you have your own opinion, my opinion and the LAA

 course instructors advice is - do not hand crank unless there is a

 good reason to do so.


	


It is not just my opinion, I thought that the general consensus was that

(not just with Rotax but with any engine) hand cranking is a good thing

because it pumps oil into the engine prior to starting.

I even recall to have seen in some Rotax document that it is advisable

when you don't use the engine for a while to hand crank it once per

month or so. Why would that be???



 	  Quote: 	
		   Maybe we can meet at EHHO and chew the fat........


	


Well, to be honest EHHO isn't a very interesting destination. How about

the annual event at EHTX (Texel)?



Frans

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:59 am Post subject: burping the 912

John

as I understand it, by the time you have burped the engine oil will have been pumped round the engine so the old oil on the cams etc will have been replaced.

Probably the cam followers will also be pumped up to pressure reducing risk of tappets rattling

Graham

        From: John Wighton <john(at)wighton.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 3 February  2012, 12:41

 Subject: Re: burping the 912

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>



Frans,

As with all things in life you have to listen to advice from 'experts', l am sufficiently convinced that the LAA selected the instructor for the Rotax course on the basis that he knows his stuff.



At the course we examined parts and the instructor also gave a description  of exactly what happens during all phases of operation of the engine.



He showed parts that had premature wear due to oil starvation.



As an aeronautical engineer l took the advice given by that instructor and act on it.  If you want to do something else that is fine by me.



Put simply, if a component (say a cam) has oil on it and it is turned against other parts  the oil WILL be disturbed.  If the oil is disturbed some of it may vacate to another place (eventually in the tank if cranking).



I appreciate that you have your own opinion, my opinion and the LAA course instructors advice is - do not hand crank unless there is a good reason to do so.



Maybe we can meet at EHHO and chew the fat........



--------

John Wighton

Europa XS trigear G-IPOD





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.rchive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt; http://forums.matronics.com

_;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" =======



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:45 am Post subject: Re: burping the 912

Graham,

May be you are right.  I used to gurgle the engine religiously (!) every time but since the course when l was told it does more harm than good l havent.



The LAA instructor used to work at Rotax, so l sort of assumed he knows best.



Simplistically l think if the oil was in the engine and it ends up in the tank there must be less oil doing good work.  Or is that too simple?



I don't think oil gets spurted up around the engine when it is hand cranked - does anyone know the answer?

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: burping the 912

John,



I attended my Rotax maintenance course at Lockwood Aviation in Sebring Florida.  They are the largest Rotax maintenance shop in North America.  My course was given by Mr. Dean Vogel who has been doing this course for Lockwood for a long time.  He specifically instructed the attendees that the Rotax 9xx engine should be properly checked for oil level prior to the first flight of the day and subsequently any time that day that the aircraft had been parked for a while.  He said that the engine oil should be check according to Rotax Service Instruction SI-27-1997.  You can go to Rotax-Owner.com (The Factory Authorized Website for Information, Education & Support), go to "Information" tab and select "All Videos" to get a list of all their instructional and educational video.  They have an excellent video on performing a proper oil level check, complete with 'burp' in accordance with SI-27-1997.  Also under the "Instructions" tab is a section "Service Bulletins" where you can gain access to all SBs, SIs and SL. 



Excuse me while I get out my Soap Box:



If any Europaphiles out there are flying behind a Rotax 9xx engine and you are not signed up at Rotax.com, shame on you.  It is the PRIMO location for current information on the Rotax engine.  They also provide e-mail updates and notifications on new and updated procedures and videos.  Ya, it's gonna cost you a couple bucks (or pounds or euros) but it's worth it.



OK, down off my Soap Box...



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Feb 3, 2012, at 6:41 AM, John Wighton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Frans,

 As with all things in life you have to listen to advice from 'experts', l am sufficiently convinced that the LAA selected the instructor for the Rotax course on the basis that he knows his stuff.

 

 At the course we examined parts and the instructor also gave a description  of exactly what happens during all phases of operation of the engine.

 

 He showed parts that had premature wear due to oil starvation.

 

 As an aeronautical engineer l took the advice given by that instructor and act on it.  If you want to do something else that is fine by me.

 

 Put simply, if a component (say a cam) has oil on it and it is turned against other parts the oil WILL be disturbed.  If the oil is disturbed some of it may vacate to another place (eventually in the tank if cranking).

 

 I appreciate that you have your own opinion, my opinion and the LAA course instructors advice is - do not hand crank unless there is a good reason to do so.

 

 Maybe we can meet at EHHO and chew the fat........

 

 --------

 John Wighton

 Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365521#365521

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: Re: burping the 912

In addition, Chapter 3.3, Pre Flight Checks in both the 912ULS & 914UL Operators Manual state, "Remove oil tank cap.  Turn propeller by hand several times to pump oil from the engine into the tank.  This process is complete when air is being returned back to the oil tank and can be noticed by a murmur from the open oil tank".



Jim & Heather

N241BW

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: burping the 912

On 02/03/2012 03:45 PM, John Wighton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The LAA instructor used to work at Rotax, so l sort of assumed he knows best.


	


I guess the people who wrote the operators manual also work for Rotax

and also knows best.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't think oil gets spurted up around the engine when it is hand cranked - does anyone know the answer?


	


I do. The oil gets there. The oil pump doesn't know who is turning the

engine, so it dutyfully starts pumping oil as soon as its shaft starts

turning.



I somehow get the feeling that you don't believe me on my word. So here

are two tests you can do to convince yourself:

1) Get an assistant to hand crank the engine. Switch on the engine

instruments (NOT the ignition!) and observe the oil pressure gauge when

your assistant cranks the engine.

2) Disconnect the hose from the sump to the tank. Some oil will drain

from the engine. Wait until it sort off finishes draining. Then hand

crank the engine. New oil will arrive soon in the sump. You can repeat

this many times; every time you crank the engine some new oil will come out.



And finally, ask an expert why it is bad to hand crank the engine in the

wrong direction. He will tell you that the oil pump now pumps the oil

out of the system and air will enter it. Hence the oil pump is working

while hand cranking.



Frans

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