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CARB ICING 912

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Rick Pearce

Joined: 30 Dec 2011
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:04 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

I flew to a  fly in Sat morning. 17 deg.  When I chopped the power on landing the eng. quit. This is the second time this has happened. It started back up after sitting on the run way a little bit both times. I have always head you don't need carb heat on a 912. I begining to wonder. Is every one else running carb heat?

_________________
Rick Pearce

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:25 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

I flew to a  fly in Sat morning. 17 deg.  When I chopped the power on 

landing the eng. quit. This is the second time this has happened. It started 

back up after sitting on the run way a little bit both times. I have always 

head you don't need carb heat on a 912. I begining to wonder. Is every one 

else running carb heat?



--------

Rick Pearce



i have been told that you dont need it as well...   but when talking to a 

friend that moved to utah from florida,,,  he had mentioned that on very 

humid days,  it would ice up without carb heat,  and i have felt that on one 

occasion in over 700 hours that i was starting to get some,  mostly by the 

way it coughed when i throttled up after returning from a flight in the 

spring after a storm.



boyd young

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

I flew to a  fly in Sat morning. 17 deg.  When I chopped the

power on landing the eng. quit. This is the second time this

has happened. It started back up after sitting on the run

way a little bit both times. I have always head you don't

need carb heat on a 912. I begining to wonder. Is every one

else running carb heat?



--------

Rick Pearce

 

Rick P/Kolbers:



Wouldn't comment if I did not have experience with the 912

and carb ice.



First experience, 912ULS, was summer 2000, approach and

landing Toad River Airstrip, British Columbia.  Just prior

to touch down the engine quite.  Restart during roll out.

Engine would run at 3,000 rpm and above, but immediately die

below 3,000.  Taxied back to the ramp, shut down, walked

across the highway to the store to close my flight plan.  30

minutes later restarted with closed throttle and the 912

purred like a kitten. 



Icing up the idle jet is not a problem if you shoot your

landing to make the field dead stick.  Immediate action is

keep the engine over 3,000 rpm.  I don't worry about idle

jet icing.  It has only happened once in more than 3,000.0

hours flying 912UL and 912ULS.



Next year during prep for flight to Point Barrow, Alaska,

installed 385.00 worth of hot water carb heat.  Worked

great, but was a plumbing nightmare.  A year later removed

carb heat.  Returned to Point Barrow in 2004.  No ice with

no carb heat.  



During a flight from Oregon to Alabama 2009, 912ULS,

experienced carb ice at about 9,000 feet at cruise, about 40

miles west of Rock Springs, Wyoming.  My wingman John B.,

flying a 912UL powered MKIII was also getting carb ice.

Conditions were perfect for icing.  Immediate action was to

cycle the throttle from wide open to idle and back.  When

ice would release from the carb you could feel it in the

engine.  Cycling the throttle helps break loose the ice on

the throttle plate, as does wide open throttle help pull it

out of the venturi.



I still do a lot of flying and do not use nor feel the need

for carb heat.  You may feel differently about carb heat on

a 912 series engine and that won't bother me one bit.



Here is something else I do that you all may not agree with.

As above, won't bother me a bit if you do, but it works for

me.  I use Marvel Mystery Oil in my fuel.  May add enough

lubricity to the main jet, throttle plate, and venturi to

prevent a lot of ice buildup.



As my good buddy, Buford, says, "Your mileage may vary."



john h

mkIII

Woodville, Florida

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

good question Rick and good answer John....glad to get this  information.  I have been wondering some about that subject after flying  Bob's MK lll with the 912 80 hp a lot  last year I pass the info  on to him..

  

 do not archive...

  

 Jim Swan Kolb  Firestar ll, 503 Rotax , 6147 Wilcox Rd., Eaton Rapids, Mi 48827 ph 517-663-8488  GPS GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825   

  In a message dated 2/4/2012 2:49:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)



Wouldn't    comment if I did not have experience with the 912

and carb    ice.



First experience, 912ULS, was summer 2000, approach and

landing    Toad River Airstrip, British Columbia.  Just prior

to touch down the    engine quite.  Restart during roll out.

Engine would run at 3,000 rpm    and above, but immediately die

below 3,000.  Taxied back to the ramp,    shut down, walked

across the highway to the store to close my flight    plan.  30

minutes later restarted with closed throttle and the    912

purred like a kitten. 



Icing up the idle jet is not a problem if    you shoot your

landing to make the field dead stick.  Immediate action    is

keep the engine over 3,000 rpm.  I don't worry about idle

jet    icing.  It has only happened once in more than 3,000.0

hours flying    912UL and 912ULS.



Next year during prep for flight to Point Barrow,    Alaska,

installed 385.00 worth of hot water carb heat.     Worked

great, but was a plumbing nightmare.  A year later    removed

carb heat.  Returned to Point Barrow in 2004.  No ice    with

no carb heat.  



During a flight from Oregon to Alabama    2009, 912ULS,

experienced carb ice at about 9,000 feet at cruise, about    40

miles west of Rock Springs, Wyoming.  My wingman John B.,

flying    a 912UL powered MKIII was also getting carb ice.

Conditions were perfect    for icing.  Immediate action was to

cycle the throttle from wide open    to idle and back.  When

ice would release from the carb you could feel    it in the

engine.  Cycling the throttle helps break loose the ice    on

the throttle plate, as does wide open throttle help pull it

out of    the venturi.



I still do a lot of flying and do not use nor feel the    need

for carb heat.  You may feel differently about carb heat on

a    912 series engine and that won't bother me one bit.



Here is something    else I do that you all may not agree with.

As above, won't bother me a bit    if you do, but it works for

me.  I use Marvel Mystery Oil in my    fuel.  May add enough

lubricity to the main jet, throttle plate, and    venturi to

prevent a lot of ice buildup.



As my good buddy, Buford,    says, "Your mileage may vary."



john h

mkIII

Woodville,  e  ies  ay                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site  p;                             



	




 [quote][b]

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

John,

 Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb or intake air warm enough to reduce icing?

 G.Aman

  --

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

John,

Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb or  intake air warm enough to reduce  icing?

G.Aman

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 gary

  

 i dont know if the exhaust makes a difference  or not,  maybe john has an opinion,,,   but the reason i think  the intake on the 912 does not have the problem that some other engines do,   is the length of the intake from the carb to the heads.  the short  intake piping carries the heat from the head to help keep the intake warm enough  to keep the  ice out.  i think you could mount some thermocouples  along the way and prove or disprove the theory.    the rubber  boot stops the heat from getting to the carb, so the ice builds up on the  butterfly.  that is why moving the throttle will help chip off the  ice,    john williamson told me that the conical shaped air  filters had more icing problems than the flat ones.  i dont understand what  the difference would be or if he told me.

  

 boyd

  

   [quote][b]

tc1917(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:21 am Post subject: carb icing 912

Got over 300 hours on my 912UL on my slingshot and haven't had any trouble 

with icing yet.  I rarely ever throttle down below 2500 on landing, mostly 

3200.  I believe some of the reason is my radiator is right in front of the 

carbs with the oil can between the carbs.  I think with the heat of the 

hoses, hot oil, etc, I get plenty of warmer air to the carbs.  At least I 

believe that.  I am also very careful not to fly when the conditions are 

'perfect' for icing.  Now that my rum rum is mostly gone, it is a pleasure 

to fly my little kite.  A big thanks for Miss Lite for going to bat for me. 

Hard to believe two gears could make all that noise and not show that much 

wear.  Anyway, may your flights be bright and your landings be soft.  Ted 

Cowan, Slingshot, 912ul, zoom zoom.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

I've had two cases of carb icing in 912 powered airplanes, one of which was in a tractor/cowled engine. In both cases, it was during S&L cruise and I first noticed something was amiss because the very slight loss of power at the beginning resulted in a slight descent. No loss in RPM which is what some say to look for. In stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a loss in rpm or rough running. In both cases, cycling the throttle got rid of it, temporarily. As long as the conditions support carb ice, any carb can ice, even those which are less prone to doing so.



Humid conditions are the most prominent cause. You can see attached carb icing chart, which makes this very clear, at following link:



http://cl.ly/0B402k3f3g311R3a3v0H

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

John,	a com

Do you think the type of exhaust you run helps keep the carb

or intake air warm enough to reduce icing?

G.Aman

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>

 
	


gary

 

 



Gary A/Kolbers,



I doubt the type exhaust makes much difference.  The carbs

are isolated in front of the engine away from most engine

generated heat.  Any ideas I have are guesses.  When I did

get ice, the conditions were perfect for it.  Indications

were engine miss at varying degrees felt by a thumping in

the airframe.  Thumps and taps of different intensity, but

primarily low.  Didn't really loose power more than a few

rpm, 50 or 100.

This was at cruise power, 5,000 rpm, when John B and I

experienced simultaneous icing.  We were burning primarily

100LL with a little 91 octane mogas.  Cycling the throttle

and leaving at WOT helped clear the ice.



Icing up the idle jet on approach was a complete surprise,

but it took a few minutes at closed throttle to ice up.  I

was making a long, slow approach into Toad River in northern

British Columbia.  I had been loitering in the mountains

east of the airstrip waiting for an isolated shower to move

out of the area.  Temps were in the mid-40's and moisture

was hanging in the air.  May be good reason to keep engine

rpm over 3,000 when there is a possibility of ice.  The

engine ran perfect at 3,000, but died below that.



john h

mkIII

Woodville, Florida

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

No loss in RPM which is what some say to look for. In

stable cruise the loss in altitude will show up before a

loss in rpm or rough running.  



Thom Riddle

 

Don't quite understand the above.



My experience has been an occasional thump in the airframe

when the engine starts ingest ice.  If and when the

situation gets worse, it will begin to lose power and rpm.

If I don't fly the airplane, it will lose altitude.



Your mileage may vary.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

John H,

I'll try again.



When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with hands off stick, adjusting direction slightly at times with a touch of rudder pedal, the very first sign of carb ice I have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude. This may be due to the beginning stages of carb ice which slightly reduces the airflow which reduces power slightly. A reduction in power (whether intentional or not) in stable level cruise always results in a descent. If the pilot corrects for this by adding up elevator to hold altitude without increasing throttle, then the rpm (fixed pitch prop) will begin to decrease, as will the airspeed. 



All I was saying is that under these conditions the very earliest sign of carb beginning to ice is a slight and gradual descent with no detectable rpm drop or rough running. If you are flying at cruise in rough air or the aircraft is not flyable hands off then the pilot is probably moving the controls around at least a little and this slight and gradual descent my not be detectable.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

When cruising along at constant altitude in smooth air with

hands off stick, adjusting direction slightly at times with

a touch of rudder pedal, the very first sign of carb ice I

have noticed, was a slight and gradual loss of altitude.  

Thom Riddle

Wish I could fly my Kolb like that.  Would make long cross

country flights less work, but I'd really have a hard time

staying awake on those long boring legs.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

John, Just thought the top mounted exhaust might radiate a little.My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced.It is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY throttle setting when it happens.If there is DEW,I got the heat on.My heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on the Bing 64.It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a quarter high,attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two terminals,one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think.Super simple and effective.Never heard of the hot water system for the 912.

 G.Aman

   

  

     

  

     

  

    --

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

From: Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com>

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:22:39 -0500 (EST)

 	  Quote: 	
		  .................My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced. It 

is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY 

throttle setting when it happens. If there is DEW, I got the heat on. My 

heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on 

the Bing 64. It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a 

quarter high, attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two 

terminals, one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think. Super simple and 

effective................

 	  Quote: 	

Kolbers,

I have experienced icing with both the Bing and Tillotson carburetors.  This 

looked like another solution to the problem.

I searched the web until I found it at:

http://www.motionaero.com/Products-Accessories.html

The Tillotson carburetor uses a throttle butterfly and so the carburetor is 

prone to icing.  As the idle jet fuel flow exit is just past the butterfly 

when it is in the closed position. This makes it a prime location for ice 

formation which blocks the idle fuel flow.

I searched the web and found some small stud bolt heaters that are used on 

carburetors of KTM motorcycles.

http://www.ktmtwins.com/ktm-950-adventure-carburetor-de-icing-kit 

The kit for the twin includes a temperature switch and two heaters plus some 

connecting wire.  I copied out the order info below:

Item                                      Sku         Qty Subtotal    

KTM 950 Adventure Carburetor De-Icing Kit 60031003044  1  $30.00     

Subtotal                                                  $30.00   

Shipping & Handling                                       $12.00   

Grand Total                                               $42.00   

I believe the heaters are rated at 10 watts, so they will draw leas than one 

ampere.  I drilled the bottom of the Tillotson carburetor just one down wind 

of the idle fuel flow port to accept one of these heaters.  This position 

puts the heat at the point were the ice would form and block the fuel flow. 

If the weather remains cold, I will put up a page on how it was done.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

phactor9

Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:21 am Post subject: CARB ICING 912

Hi Jack: I'm holding my Tillotson in my hand. I would love to know exactly where you drilled 

 

A few months ago I bought a few 12v 50 Watt Halogen lamps (eBay item #120649527177 - they're cheap) and thought I might like to explore placing one of them, wrapped in foil or some other insulator and securely attached to the carb body near the idle fuel port, wired to an On/Off switch plus LED indicator (to tell whenever the bulb burns out) located somewhere near my controls.

 

I just measured the current flow at around 3.45amps, which is "close enough" (41 watts) for what I'm doing (amps x volts = watts). I'm amazed at the free, still-air temperature of around 450 degrees F I just registered on my kitchen counter:

http://phactor.com/50w.jpg

 

Then, I guess it's "Carb Heat On!" as a normal part of any landing, departure, or any other flight event where loss of power is very undesirable.

 

But I'm still building my new FireFly so I can only play with stuff on the kitchen counter right now...

 

Phil H

FF11-4-076



 



--- On Wed, 2/8/12, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 11:06 AM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



From: Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)>

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:22:39 -0500 (EST)



 	  Quote: 	
		  .................My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced. It 

is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY 
	


throttle setting when it happens. If there is DEW, I got the heat on. My 

heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on 

the Bing 64. It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a 

quarter high, attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two 

terminals, one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think.  Super simple and 

effective................

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Kolbers,



I have experienced icing with both the Bing and Tillotson carburetors.  This 

looked like another solution to the problem.



I searched the web until I found it at:



http://www.motionaero.com/Products-Accessories.html



The Tillotson carburetor uses a throttle butterfly and so the carburetor is 

prone to icing.  As the idle jet fuel flow exit is just past the butterfly 

when it is in the closed position. This makes it a prime location for ice 

formation which blocks the idle fuel flow.



I searched the web and found some small stud bolt heaters that are used on 

carburetors of KTM motorcycles.



http://www.ktmtwins.com/ktm-950-adventure-carburetor-de-icing-kit 



The kit for the twin includes a temperature switch and two heaters plus some 

connecting wire.  I copied out the order info below:

  

Item                                      Sku         Qty Subtotal    

KTM 950 Adventure Carburetor De-Icing Kit 60031003044  1  $30.00     

Subtotal                                                  $30.00   

Shipping & Handling                                        $12.00   

Grand Total                                               $42.00   



I believe the heaters are rated at 10 watts, so they will draw leas than one 

ampere.  I drilled the bottom of the Tillotson carburetor just one down wind 

of the idle fuel flow port to accept one of these heaters.  This position 

puts the heat at the point were the ice would form and block the fuel flow. 



If the weather remains cold, I will put up a page on how it was done.



Jap;  --> http:========================http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============





	
 [quote][b]

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

Phil,



  Using a light bulb wrapped in foil may be a horrible idea, at least as far as a carb de-icer goes.

There's no telling how long that bulb would last, and it darn sure isn't something you aren't concerned

if it  burned out, just when you need it most.

  A light bulb 'expects' to lose all the heat by radiating it away from the bulb.  If a guy were to wrap 

that little sucker, he 'may' be reducing it's lifespan by a HUGE amount.  Flying in known icing conditions

might be the wrong time to find out your foil coated bulb has design flaws.

  Ever notice that light bulbs in your house in enclosed spaces burn out quicker than those in open air? 

Heat is the light bulb's biggest enemy. 

  Obviously, the MUCH better choice would be to copy Jack's M/C carb ice gizmo.

  

  Time for Jack to take photos.

  Regarding carb icing;  I evaded the likeliness of icing up by going with fuel injection and a turbocharger.

I have to 'cool down' my intake air (with an intercooler)!!  I also have a manual method for Air/Fuel 

Ratio changes, augmenting the ECU.

  The only ice I want jingles in liquid libation.

Mike Welch





On Feb 8, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Phil wrote:

[quote]Hi Jack: I'm holding my Tillotson in my hand. I would love to know exactly where you drilled 

 

A few months ago I bought a few 12v 50 Watt Halogen lamps (eBay item #120649527177 - they're cheap) and thought I might like to explore placing one of them, wrapped in foil or some other insulator and securely attached to the carb body near the idle fuel port, wired to an On/Off switch plus LED indicator (to tell whenever the bulb burns out) located somewhere near my controls.

 

I just measured the current flow at around 3.45amps, which is "close enough" (41 watts) for what I'm doing (amps x volts = watts). I'm amazed at the free, still-air temperature of around 450 degrees F I just registered on my kitchen counter:

http://phactor.com/50w.jpg

 

Then, I guess it's "Carb Heat On!" as a normal part of any landing, departure, or any other flight event where loss of power is very undesirable.

 

But I'm still building my new FireFly so I can only play with stuff on the kitchen counter right now...

 

Phil H

FF11-4-076



 



--- On Wed, 2/8/12, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 11:06 AM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



From: Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com)>

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:22:39 -0500 (EST)



 	  Quote: 	
		  .................My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced. It 

is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY 
	


throttle setting when it happens. If there is DEW, I got the heat on. My 

heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on 

the Bing 64. It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a 

quarter high, attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two 

terminals, one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think.  Super simple and 

effective................

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Kolbers,



I have experienced icing with both the Bing and Tillotson carburetors.  This 

looked like another solution to the problem.



I searched the web until I found it at:



http://www.motionaero.com/Products-Accessories.html



The Tillotson carburetor uses a throttle butterfly and so the carburetor is 

prone to icing.  As the idle jet fuel flow exit is just past the butterfly 

when it is in the closed position. This makes it a prime location for ice 

formation which blocks the idle fuel flow.



I searched the web and found some small stud bolt heaters that are used on 

carburetors of KTM motorcycles.



http://www.ktmtwins.com/ktm-950-adventure-carburetor-de-icing-kit 



The kit for the twin includes a temperature switch and two heaters plus some 

connecting wire.  I copied out the order info below:

  

Item                                      Sku         Qty Subtotal    

KTM 950 Adventure Carburetor De-Icing Kit 60031003044  1  $30.00     

Subtotal                                                  $30.00   

Shipping & Handling                                        $12.00   

Grand Total                                               $42.00   



I believe the heaters are rated at 10 watts, so they will draw leas than one 

ampere.  I drilled the bottom of the Tillotson carburetor just one down wind 

of the idle fuel flow port to accept one of these heaters.  This position 

puts the heat at the point were the ice would form and block the fuel flow. 



If the weather remains cold, I will put up a page on how it was done.



Jap;  --> http:========================http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============





	
  	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

phactor9

Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 78

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

All true, and $42 is cheap. But if one designs the enclosure "properly", overheating, broken glass, burning out, etc. is all factored in. Duct tape is out. So is Elmer's glue. And I should not have suggested "foil".

 

Plus, I'm interested in manual control, and a visual that it's operating properly (LED). I'll bet you could hook up an LED to that ktm-950 gizmo, too. That would rule.

 

Plus, isn't that half the fun, creating and testing your own gadgets? Subjecting them to torture and testing on the bench (for hours, days, etc.), and not in the plane?

 

But, yes, would still love to see pics, Jack.

 

Phil H

--- On Wed, 2/8/12, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 3:31 PM



 Not to mention that if the glass on the bulb breaks, for the instant that it survives it's a yellow hot gasoline detonator. 



 Rick Girard



 On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Michael Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Phil, 



   Using a light bulb wrapped in foil may be a horrible idea, at least as far as a carb de-icer goes.

 There's no telling how long that bulb would last, and it darn sure isn't something you aren't concerned

 if it  burned out, just when you need it most.

 



   A light bulb 'expects' to lose all the heat by radiating it away from the bulb.  If a guy were to wrap 

 that little sucker, he 'may' be reducing it's lifespan by a HUGE amount.  Flying in known icing conditions

 might be the wrong time to find out your foil coated bulb has design flaws.

 



   Ever notice that light bulbs in your house in enclosed spaces burn out quicker than those in open air? 

 Heat is the light bulb's biggest enemy. 

 



   Obviously, the MUCH better choice would be to copy Jack's M/C carb ice gizmo.

   

   Time for Jack to take photos.

 



   Regarding carb icing;  I evaded the likeliness of icing up by going with fuel injection and a turbocharger.

 I have to 'cool down' my intake air (with an intercooler)!!  I also have a manual method for Air/Fuel 

 Ratio changes, augmenting the ECU.

 



   The only ice I want jingles in liquid libation.

 



 Mike Welch

 



 



     On Feb 8, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Phil wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		         Hi Jack: I'm holding my Tillotson in my hand. I would love to know exactly where you drilled 

 

A few months ago I bought a few 12v 50 Watt Halogen lamps (eBay item #120649527177 - they're cheap) and thought I might like to explore placing one of them, wrapped in foil or some other insulator and securely attached to the carb body near the idle fuel port, wired to an On/Off switch plus LED indicator (to tell whenever the bulb burns out) located somewhere near my controls.

 

I just measured the current flow at around 3.45amps, which is "close enough" (41 watts) for what I'm doing (amps x volts = watts). I'm amazed at the free, still-air temperature of around 450 degrees F I just registered on my kitchen counter:

http://phactor.com/50w.jpg

 

Then, I guess it's "Carb Heat On!" as a normal part of any landing, departure, or any other flight event where loss of power is very undesirable.

 

But I'm still building my new FireFly so I can only play with stuff on the kitchen counter right now...

 

Phil H

FF11-4-076



 



--- On Wed, 2/8/12, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

Subject: Re: CARB ICING 912

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 11:06 AM



 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>



From: Gary Aman <zeprep251(at)aol.com>

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:22:39 -0500 (EST)



 	  Quote: 	
		  .................My Jabiru is the most readily icing I have experienced. It 

is well removed from all heat sources and really gets your attention at ANY 
	


throttle setting when it happens. If there is DEW, I got the heat on. My 

heat source is a conductive element attached to the throttle shaft boss on 

the Bing 64. It is the size of a stack of silver dollars an inch and a 

quarter high, attached by two screws,and externally grounded with two 

terminals, one for 30 watts and both for 60 I think. Super simple and  

effective................

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Kolbers,



I have experienced icing with both the Bing and Tillotson carburetors.  This 

looked like another solution to the problem.



I searched the web until I found it at:



http://www.motionaero.com/Products-Accessories.html



The Tillotson carburetor uses a throttle butterfly and so the carburetor is 

prone to icing.  As the idle jet fuel flow exit is just past the butterfly 

when it is in the closed position. This makes it a prime location for ice 

formation which blocks the idle fuel flow.



I searched the web and found some small stud bolt heaters that are used on 

carburetors of KTM motorcycles.



http://www.ktmtwins.com/ktm-950-adventure-carburetor-de-icing-kit 



The kit for the twin includes a temperature switch and two heaters plus some 

connecting wire.  I copied out the order info below:

  

Item                                      Sku         Qty Subtotal    

KTM 950 Adventure Carburetor De-Icing Kit 60031003044  1  $30.00     

Subtotal                                                  $30.00   

Shipping & Handling                                        $12.00   

Grand Total                                               $42.00   



I believe the heaters are rated at 10 watts, so they will draw leas than one 

ampere.  I drilled the bottom of the Tillotson carburetor just one down wind 

of the idle fuel flow port to accept one of these heaters.  This position 

puts the heat at the point were the ice would form and block the fuel flow. 



If the weather remains cold, I will put up a page on how it was done.



Jap;  --> http:========================http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============





	




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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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-- 

 Zulu Delta

 Mk IIIC

 Thanks, Homer GBYM

 



 It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

  - Groucho Marx

 



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 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

I looked at the numbers for electric carburetor heat a couple of years ago.



 Using the FAA specification of 90°F temperature rise of the incoming air at 75% power, and calculating the airflow into the Cuyuna engine on my Ultrastar, I calculated that it would require 1500W (a 912, of course, would require more)... meaning that a 50W bulb in the air intake would do little or nothing.



 If you're heating the carburetor body to prevent ice from adhering, perhaps it might require less heat, but I don't think that much less.



 Remember, your "free still air" temperature is going to be a lot higher than a carburetor of a running engine with air flowing inside and outside it, and active cooling from air acceleration and fuel atomization.



 -Dana



 At 01:16 PM 2/8/2012, Phil wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Jack: I'm holding my Tillotson in my hand. I would love to know exactly where you drilled 



 A few months ago I bought a few 12v 50 Watt Halogen lamps (eBay item #120649527177 - they're cheap) and thought I might like to explore placing one of them, wrapped in foil or some other insulator and securely attached to the carb body near the idle fuel port, wired to an On/Off switch plus LED indicator (to tell whenever the bulb burns out) located somewhere near my controls.



 I just measured the current flow at around 3.45amps, which is "close enough" (41 watts) for what I'm doing (amps x volts = watts). I'm amazed at the free, still-air temperature of around 450 degrees F I just registered on my kitchen counter:

 http://phactor.com/50w.jpg



 Then, I guess it's "Carb Heat On!" as a normal part of any landing, departure, or any other flight event where loss of power is very undesirable. 	


 --

 You're never too old to learn something stupid.

    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

Then, I guess it's "Carb Heat On!" as a normal part of any landing,

departure, or any other flight event where loss of power is very

undesirable.



Phil H

 

Doubt you are going to need carb heat during takeoff or other full throttle

operation.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: CARB ICING 912

 



  Regarding carb icing;  I evaded the likeliness of icing up by going with fuel injection and a turbocharger.



I have to 'cool down' my intake air (with an intercooler)!!  I also have a manual method for Air/Fuel 



Ratio changes, augmenting the ECU.



 



  The only ice I want jingles in liquid libation.



 



Mike Welch

 	  Quote: 	
		     Don't have to worry about ice on the ground. When is that bird going to fly so you can look for ice? Please note:  This is in jest. john h 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2

  [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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