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Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

John and all

  

 "Kolb "quit" only happens to Kolb pilots that land above the airstrip and  not

on it.  Takes airspeed to stay above the stall."

  

 When I moved my pitot to the wing strut and added a  static line I realized a 10mph error.

 I was not doing 100mph at WOT but  85-90.

    My apologies to the great guys  at Kolb for whinning a couple years ago about wheel landing at 60mph not feeling  like low and slow to me.

  

 I did my new stall tests at 3000rpm same as  approach as I know it will keep me flying.

 Gently pulled back on the stick after slowing a  bit. At 35 mph I noticed a tiny wing waggle. Also whitnessed by a passenger  pilot at a slightly higher speed.

 Continued to pull back slightly at about a 3 point  stance on the ground (short aluminum legs) maybe a little higher It stalled at  28mph.

   Winter airspeed gauge and gps always seem to  be right on the money.

 As I was only 2nd year solo I always tried to  wheel land basically straight and level just like Kolb list members suggested.  Good advice. 

     I kept practicing all last year  and kept dropping to the runway at 2 or 3 ft. well above stall speed. Asked  other real pilots what might be up but no one seemed to get it. Every now and  then I would accidentally come in nose high and float on 3point like a pro. Also  tried different TO's and found that if I kept the tail wheel on the ground I'd  be off in less than 90'.

 Much faster than before ... what a ball:)   

  

     Here's what I'm pretty sure of  after multiple stalls and many more TOL's and a lot less butt clenching.   My Xtra has 2 stall speeds.... straight and level and nose high. I don't think  its vg related as some without them have experienced the same.

  

 Comments?

  

 Vic

 Xtra 912ul

 Flapperons VG's

 Stock aluminum legs  800x6  tires

 35hrs solo

   [quote][b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

 



    Here's what I'm pretty sure of after multiple stalls and many more TOL's and a lot less butt clenching.  My Xtra has 2 stall speeds.... straight and level and nose high. I don't think its vg related as some without them have experienced the same.



 



Comments?



 



Vic

[quote]  With the same load and weather conditions and attitude, the Kolb should stall at the same indicated airspeed no matter what altitude.  Don't know about others', but all the Kolbs and fixed wing aircraft I have flown have performed the same at indicated stall. john hmkIIITitus, Alabama [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:01 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

[quote]Your right JohnStalls the same speed at a given attitude and a different at another.  "With the same load and weather conditions and attitude,"  john h<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />mkIIITitus, Alabama[b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports  the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall.

 Lets pretend that I didn't do my stall testing at  5ft of altitude. That I know what ground effect is and that I wasn't flying  3 to 5 mph slower than my normal indicated stall and then complaining because it  stalled.

 I did not bend my gear legs. So before you blame my  testing on poor pilotage maybe you should all hop in your own Kolbs and do some  tests of your own.

  Lets also be aware that although I am a low  timer I can be as big a know it all and blow hard as anyone on this list  .

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Rick

 Thats very funny. Maybe someone should get a  reduction 

 Sure sounded like condescending dismissal to me. My  bad.

 Vic

   [quote][b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Gents:

Perhaps it would let some of the heat out of this string if we re-named it “Pilot Quit”…  since Kolbs are not failing or “quitting” here…

 

Kolbs, model for model, given the same conditions, do precisely the same thing every time… just like every other airplane on the planet.

 

Seems to me that the only true variable in the bent-gear sweepstakes is the hand on the stick…   

 

Even a brand new monkey learns to keep his freshly-licked finger out of the electrical socket (or a few extra knots on the ASI)

after the first  big eye-watering epiphany with serious voltage or Mother Gravity.

 

I humbly submit that Kolbs don’t “quit”… any more than a P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits…   unless the Kolb driver first grants it permission

to do so …  Don’t do that. 

 

Worth what ye paid fer it…

 

Beauford

FF-076

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive very much….

 



On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:07 PM, vic <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net (vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net)> wrote:

I explained an anomaly about my Kolb that supports the mythic Kolb Quit ie. stall.

[quote]

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

I humbly submit that Kolbs don’t “quit”… any more than a

P-51 or a J-3 Cub quits…   unless the Kolb driver first

grants it permission

to do so …  Don’t do that. 



Worth what ye paid fer it…



Beauford

 

You got that right, my friend.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected  can be so close minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time

 doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you  a genius. If you want to help people on this list pay attention

 I'll type slowly. 

 Two things make me happy... flying my plane and  thinking about flying it.

 You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't  really care, but don't even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't  whitnessed my flying you must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and  your pal have busted more Kolbs than I have.

  

 You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen.  (if you haven't del. already)

    I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as  I maintain on landing. Stalls at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.

 Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my  whitness). Not 35 or 40 

     Anything wrong yet?

 If I want to wheel  land and get too close to  35 mph I have use a little power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before  stalling. If I want to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28  no problem. It took me awhile to catch on. I did think it was just  me.

     With my passenger we quit flying  at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of  us.

 Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at  altitude.

 This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by  others.

  

 Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other  newbee pilots or monkeys as you call them.

 If you can explain it please do. If not just say  those words so difficult for many "I don't Know"

  

 I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think  the Kolb quit originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just  maybee someone else experienced a higher stall than what they  had determined earlier at altitude.

  

 " Those of you that think you know it all are  annoying to those of us that do"

  

 I humbly submit you just may be full of it.  

  

 And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb  even up for a Lancair no matter what it stalls at.

 Just as pissed as you right now!   Vic

  

  

  

 ---

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Brother Vic…

 

Ah, but you take personal offense where none was intended or directed, sir…

 

It was only by chance that your post happened to be the one on this subject immediately

before mine… You will notice mine was not addressed to you by name, but to the general

audience… 

 

My comments were directed at the largely unwarranted play the concept of “Kolb Quit” has

received on this list over the past year or so…  I do not recall addressing you, calling you any derogatory

names or insulting you…    I do not know who you are, or care how much or little aviation experience you happen to

have…You are not relevant to the general point I was making… which was Kolbs don’t stall Kolbs… Pilots stall Kolbs…

Yes, and even P-51’s… 

 

 

About the monkey thing -- The “even a green monkey” analogy is one widely used in the American military culture to explain

something by comparing it with something else… Think of it as “even a buck private” and

it may go down easier than the monkey… Regretfully, I am but a victim of my corrupt lifestyle of soldiering and petty crime…  

 

Relax a little…Kolbing is supposed to be fun…   Go take a good stogie and a two-olive Beefeater Martini…  We are all friends here…

 

beauford

FF-076

Brandon, FL

Do Not Archive

 

 

 

If you forward this e-mail, please remove my name before sending it...  I promise to do the same for you...

Thanks...



 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of vic

Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:12 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed

 

It's too bad that two pilots I've always respected can be so close minded, defensive and just plain wrong. Low time



doesn't make me a fool nor does high time make you a genius. If you want to help people on this list pay attention



I'll type slowly. 



Two things make me happy... flying my plane and thinking about flying it.



You can call me an a-hole tell me to p off ,don't really care, but don't even suggest i'm a poor pilot. Since you haven't whitnessed my flying you must be talking through your ass. I'll just bet you and your pal have busted more Kolbs than I have.



 



You tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll listen. (if you haven't del. already)



   I do my stall test at 3000 rpm same as I maintain on landing. Stalls at 28 indicated and gps. NOT 35 mph.



Stalled at 31 with last pilot passenger (my whitness). Not 35 or 40 



    Anything wrong yet?



If I want to wheel  land and get too close to 35 mph I have use a little power or drop the tail to give another 7 mph before stalling. If I want to 3 point I can take it all the way down to nearly 28 no problem. It took me awhile to catch on. I did think it was just me.



    With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us.



Now my stall is 35 even if it isn't indicated at altitude.



This phenom is repeatable and has been witnessed by others.



 



Stupid me I thought this tidbit might help other newbee pilots or monkeys as you call them.



If you can explain it please do. If not just say those words so difficult for many "I don't Know"



 



I never heard of a P-51 quit. So where do you think the Kolb quit originated anyway? Some fool low timer just make it up. Just maybee someone else experienced a higher stall than what they had determined earlier at altitude.



 



" Those of you that think you know it all are annoying to those of us that do"



 



I humbly submit you just may be full of it. 



 



And for the record ..I still wouldn't trade my Kolb even up for a Lancair no matter what it stalls at.



Just as pissed as you right now!  Vic



 



 



 



---

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Vic,

 You may want to rethink your approach to comments on this list.Rarely do personal attacks gain you much acceptance or credibility.Sometimes a post has been interpreted in a manner not intended.Always better to make that assumption before unloading both barrels at a perceived slight.

 Been here,seen that.

 Gary A. 

   

  

     

  

    --

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Thanks  all for putting up with my rants.  You'd think I'd shut the hell up when I get cranky...but nooooo.

 I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little  sleep, no beer and no flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known

 as manapause.

  

 I'm much better now:)  I partook of generous  amounts of libation... before Beaufords post.

 A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only  cure for me.

  

 I'll try some different stall testing this spring  .. start a new rant.

   [quote][b]

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Vic, For my part, I could have been a little less sharp and quick to jump the gun. Do be careful about Jetpilotitis. The Kolb forum had a long infection of that ailment already. :-}

Perhaps the British remedy for a cold would help with that. For those unfamiliar;

 Nail a hat to a wall in the bedroom.

Go to bed.

Drink (insert favorite alcoholic beverage here) until there are two hats.

Rick



On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 9:11 AM, vic <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net (vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		         Thanks  all for putting up with my rants.  You'd think I'd shut the hell up when I get cranky...but nooooo.

 I blame it on the 3 weeks of "xtra" pain, little  sleep, no beer and no flying. I've got Jetpilotitis commonly known

 as manapause.

  

 I'm much better now:)  I partook of generous  amounts of libation... before Beaufords post.

 A little Rum and micro brewery beer is the only  cure for me.

  

 I'll try some different stall testing this spring  .. start a new rant.

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	




-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

With my passenger we quit flying at 40. When I say quit I  mean stalled. Surprised the crap out of both of us.>>

  

 You were surprised that you stalled at a higher speed when  you had a passenger/higher weight?  What did you expect? The stall occurs  when the wing no longer produces enough lift to support the weight. If you add  weight or reduce speed you WILL STALL:L.

 Nothing surprising about it. That is the basic physics  behind flying. If you are too heavy or too slow the plane (any plane)  will  not fly.

 Planes certainly differ in their stalling characteristics  and the way in which the stall is approached.  Some planes will drop a  wing. some don`t. Some planes, even if the stall is approached cautiously, will  just stop flying and pitch nose down suddenly. The Kolb under the same    condition will just drop her nose a shade and start flying again. Even with the  stick held back she will just bob gently downwards. Of course if you just yank  the stick back to the stops at normal flying speed you will get a very different  response.because the increase in `g` will have produced an `apparent` increase  in weight and the stall speed  will increase in response.

 A laminar flow wing, as in a P51 will stall more  viciously than the usually benign wing design to which we are accustomed. I only  flew the P 51 once and there was a good stall warning vibration but 10,000 feet  was the MINIMUM height for spins so you can draw your own  conclusions.

  

 Pat  

   [quote][b]

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Pat

  Stall tests with 2 pass indicated 30.  2 mph higher than with 1 pass. It does not stall at 40 at  altitude.

 (3000rpm)

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Stall tests with 2 pass indicated 30. 2  mph higher than with 1 pass.

  

 Vic,

 I don`t understand. You seem to be saying  that with one up you stall at 28. With 2 up you stall at 30 (2mph higher) The  trend seems to be right. If you are heavier you will stall at a higher  speed.

 You then go on to say that you DONT stall  with 2 up at 40. I don`t understand what that has to do with  anything.

  

 It would seem that you are comparing  stalling speeds when you are landing. I would not have thought that was the  ideal way to make a comparison. There are too many variable introduced by doing  tests in ground effect and  the variations which must be introduced in  flying the machine to a safe touchdown.

 I would suggest comparison should take  place at a safe altitude in quiet evening air and the stall should be approached  with the application of back stick using the same time/movement frame. Standard  measurement exist for this.The mean of a series of tests should give a more  accurate picture.

  

 I would have expected the addition of a  passenger (198 lbs is the accepted standard weight of a crewman here in the  UK I believe)  to have produced a bigger difference in stall speed. Rule of  thumb, I would have flown faster

 Surely someone on the list can produce the  math. Not my forte. It would take me a month

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Vic Peters

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 54
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:29 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Pat 

 I did do stall tests at altitude. 28mph pilot  only. Landing straight and level,not diving, just letting that last 3 or 4  ft.

 diminish it stalls at 35mph single, 40....2 up.  Unless I drop the tail.... then 28mph stall.

 The only thing that makes sense is ground  effect.

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Vic
912ul Xtra
Maine
Too old to cut the mustard but not the cheese.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

Unless I drop the tail.... then 28mph  stall.>>

  

 I do not understand how you CANNOT be dropping the  tail.

  

 If you are trying to stall you must either cut the  power and try to keep her flying by raising the nose, which drops the  tail

 or

 You are keeping the same power setting and losing  speed by climbing, which drop the tail.

  

 If you are not doing one of those two things how  are you getting back to stalling speed?

  

 Or am I just thick (which is more than  possible)

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Rv40072

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Posts: 1
Location: Covington, LA

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb quit revealed

I have been following these discussions about Kolb quits for some time.    In case anyone has not figured it out, Kolb quit is nothing more than a stall.  The first thing to grasp is that stalls are not a function of airspeed. They are function of Angle of Attack.  Depending on weight, g-load applied, air density, the airplane will stall at different airspeeds., and can in fact be stalled at any airspeed.  The airplane will however, always stall at the same angle of attack. The following link will give one a good start on understanding stalls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_(flight)



Vic, cudos for pursuing a better understanding, but instead of focusing on what airspeed it stalls at, focus on how it feels just before it stalls.  The second alternative would be to build a simple angle of attack indicator, then you would have a visual warning of impending stall.  



Have fun, and safe flying.

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Rv40072 <Rv40072(at)gmail.com (Rv40072(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rv40072" <Rv40072(at)gmail.com (Rv40072(at)gmail.com)>

  

 I have been following these discussions about Kolb quits for some time.     In case anyone has not figured it out, Kolb quit is nothing more than a  stall.  



Gang,

While not claiming to be any kind of an aviation expert, I do have experience stalling a Kolb. All that experience that I have gained can be yours for what it is worth. That would be practically nothing as none of you will make any use of it and have to do it on your own until you have perfected the ability to stall, as have I. I too have been watching this thread and the discontent that it has caused over the months. I have seen the "angle of attack" indicator mentioned several times. I am afraid that another gauge, or indicator is a total waste of time and limited space that is generally present in my Kolb. Even if the industry actually had such a creature that I could afford or find a place for in my Firestar, it would do me absolutely no good. The reason for that of course is that it takes so little in time and space for a perfectly good landing to go to stall, that I, in my advancing state of decomposition, am unable to monitor anything else. 

 

The explanation is of course absolutely correct. It is just as I mentioned above there is little time between flying and falling if you choose to fly the plane on the edge of its envelope. I do all my landings at idle, as I most often need to limit my roll out, due to the places that I land. With that in mind, I do generally fly as close to the edge of the envelope as I feel safe doing. My biggest problem with landing is over controlling. If I hold the stick in my full ham hand I will generally over control. If I use my finger tips on the stick, the landings are better and smoother. You don't have the inertia to recover from too early or too severe flare. Of course if you use the standard amount of extra speed for your descent as called for in most pilot manuals, your landings will be just fine. As the man says, the key is to get used to how it feels.

 

Larry

  [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: Kolb quit revealed

 	  Quote: 	
		   All that experience that I have gained can be yours for what it is worth. Larry

  	




Larry,

  Although your advice was free, I considered it to be very valuable, and 

good information.  Thanks.

Mike Welch



 [quote][b]

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