Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Smooth Prime

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: Smooth Prime

To those of you who have used Smooth Prime on their Europa XS...



Have you used it JUST on the filled/foam control surfaces?...or on the  

ENTIRE airframe?



In either case, how much material is necessary for the required THREE  

(undiluted) COATS before sanding?



Thanks in advance,



Fred



-

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: Smooth Prime

Fred,



I used it.  It goes on the entire airframe after a very light scuff sanding to perfect the initial bond to the surface.  It helps the final surface coat to adhere, especially if you are using other Poly-Fiber products.  I don't remember how many gallons were required for the first three coats.  That first coat that goes on by roller goes on pretty thick.  And after the sanding, you'll be applying more in any case.  And sanding more and applying more…  And when you finally get it super slick and you are totally sick of sanding, you paint or have it painted.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Feb 20, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Fred Klein wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 To those of you who have used Smooth Prime on their Europa XS...

 

 Have you used it JUST on the filled/foam control surfaces?...or on the ENTIRE airframe?

 

 In either case, how much material is necessary for the required THREE (undiluted) COATS before sanding?

 

 Thanks in advance,

 

 Fred

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

bill mcclellan

Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 43

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: Smooth Prime

Fred,

Probably the best answer is, "it depends".  Any of your pre-molded parts that have the green/tan factory gelcoat also has some amount of mold release that has to be sanded off so it is safe to say you should sand the whole plane surface and apply your primer.  It might be a little picky but the gelcoat provides not structural benefit but does add weight.  It goes without saying, you can sand the gelcoat but not any of the thin layer of glass layup.  What ever filler you used first, maybe Superfil, is the rough fill, likely with many pin holes.  SmoothPrime is the finer fill.  Any raw sanded fiberglass/resin area will have even more pin holes.  SmoothPrime, one of its key purposes, is to eliminate the pin holes.  Make sure the surface to be finish painted is clean.  Sanding of the SmoothPrime leaves a clean paint-able surface but likely some parts have been around some time since sanding and handled a good amount and therefor could have contamination that needs to be removed.  Sanding removes the contamination very well.  I found that if you rub/clean off the sanded SmoothPrime with acetone or lacquer thinner just before painting, there is some residue that soaks into the SmoothPrime and affects how the paint goes on and leaves the pattern showing the wipe marks through the paint.  You also want to make sure you have eliminated the sub-gelcoat bubble voids that are inevitably in the fiberglass layups which will likely give way later and ruin your paint job.  Anyway, depending on how "perfect" you want your final paint job, how many time you reapply SmoothPrime and re-sand, you could use three gallons and probably more in getting it just right.  A caution for you because you are in a coastal climate.  Smooth prime will retain moisture so make sure it is completely dry before you finish paint, you don't want any moisture under the paint.  Some moisture in the SmoothPrime does not matter when adding additional coats of SmoothPrime.  You might have heard in the distant past, someone had a real bad result and !

 had to r

emove a bad paint job because it did not stick.  What is nice about SmoothPrime is it goes on so easily, cleans up with water.  Rolling on is so easy...but leaves a rougher finish to then sand off.  I used a small fine foam roller and wrapped it with cellophane after use until the next use.  If wrapped well and I then could use the roller again even a week or more later.  Spraying is more of a pain but gives a smoother finish requiring less sanding but more equipment cleanup.  Don't sand in your shop or the great amount of sand dust will be all over everything.  I found that 320 grit sand paper was a bit too rough and shows through if you use an expert painter, i.e., who applies just thick enough of paint coats to cover.  Myself being well less than an expert painter applied considerably more paint, so I had to do considerable wet sanding of the finish paint... but that had the effect of erasing the 320 grit sand paper scratches that showed through.  SmoothPrime, though being water based, adheres very well and sands very well, while drying to a harder surface than the Europa kit filler (epoxy based fillers) and even slightly harder than SuperFil.  Hope this helps, sanding and filling is a big project.

Bill  

--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: Smooth Prime

On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:07 AM, Duncan & Ami wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    used Smooth Prime only on those surface that had a problem with pin  

 holes,

 which was mostly the wet-layup flying surfaces.

 Everywhere that I used it there is now a problem (starting to  

 manifest at

 about 5 years age, now at 11 years) with microblistering. Others  

 experienced

 worse.

 In other areas I used an epoxy solvent-based primer filler.


	


Duncan...thank you very much for relating your experiences...hmmmmm.



When reading the info on Smooth Prime, I notice an emphasis on the  

need to thoroughly remove all moisture from the sanded, smooth-primed  

components with a dehumidifier before sealing the surfaces. Do you  

recall whether or not you used a dehumidifier?



Fred

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: Smooth Prime

On Feb 20, 2012, at 10:21 PM, William McClellan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Probably the best answer is, "it depends".  Any of your pre-molded  

 parts that have the green/tan factory gelcoat also has some amount  

 of mold release that has to be sanded off so it is safe to say you  

 should sand the whole plane surface and apply your primer.  It might  

 be a little picky but the gelcoat provides not structural benefit  

 but does add weight.  It goes without saying, you can sand the  

 gelcoat but not any of the thin layer of glass layup.  What ever  

 filler you used first, maybe Superfil, is the rough fill, likely  

 with many pin holes.


	


Bill...thanks for your detailed response.



I agree w/ you about removing most of the gelcoat...carefully...and  

yes, I used Superfil, and yes, I have my share of pin holes. John  

Lawton is a fan of "3M flowable finishing putty" for taking care of  

pinholes. BTW, did you try any of the "Prep Wipe" rather than Acetone  

to clean surfaces prior to applying the Smooth Prime?



Fred

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: Smooth Prime

Fred,



I used smooth prime along with their recommended prep wipe product.  I had good success.



Paul

  [quote][b]

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

bill mcclellan

Joined: 28 Jan 2010
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: Smooth Prime

Fred,



No I did not use the PrepWipe because I found I could do without it, that a final finish sanding worked equally well, maybe better.  To emphasize, as it would seem intuitively obvious, the surface you end up painting must be free of contamination.



Some additional thoughts.  Obviously there are several ways to skin this cat, many will work and some will prove not compatible.  Some basics that spread across all the different methods or systems.  Be very careful and knowing if you want to mix or apply different products and particularly, if you want to apply one product on part of the plane and some other product on another part.  When you paint over the intersection between multiple products the paint will flow at least a little differently at this junction and show in the final product.  So it is fair to say that your undercoat primer, whether using SmoothPrime or something else, it would be safest to have that product consistent and covering the whole part being painted.  This means that its not favorable to be painting over a mixture of areas of primer, some areas of raw fiberglass layup and some areas of another filler.  When you have your plane all primed and sanded, looking rather good, then you paint it and the finished glossy shinny paint now reveals many imperfections you couldn't see on the sanded or primed under surface.  There are many areas where the sub surface has differences, seams, joints, and non uniform layup thickness that will now be evident with the nice glossy paint finish.  A common place to see this is where a substructure member is, like ribs, or the fuselage top to bottom seams, etc.



With the SmoothPrime you will likely sand off 50% or even 75% of an applied sandable primer in getting it right, that is the reason for the multiple gallons of SmoothPrime I suggest you will need.  Make very sure you use a "long board" and sand with long broad strokes.  Force yourself to use as little short and localized sanding strokes as you can.  Yes there are some complex curve area you will have to deal with where long sanding strokes won't work.



Bill

--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 222

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: Smooth Prime

Fred,

I had a dehumidifier that ran in the workshop more or less constantly. RH

was always below 50%.

All normal precautions taken with the Smooth Prime, plus roller-applied and

ensuring that it was never wet-sanded.

In my view, the talc content is too high (which makes it easy to sand and

smooth to the touch), but adds weight and absorbs water.

Anyway, most of the Smooth Prime was sanded off; I only bought one pot and

it was used primarily to get rid of pin holes and (by coincidence not

design) most areas had an aerospace quality epoxy primer applied on top,

which  was less expensive too and in future I'll use that. Pity I bought-in

to the Polyfiber hype about pinhole filling; it wasn't any better at that

anyway (if applied with a roller). 

Oh well, refinishing the 'plane will give me something to do in retirement!



Rgds.,

Duncan.



--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum