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Clive J
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them? [quote][b]
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japhillipsga(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I agree. Solid is better on airplane. Maybe not in your Buick, but in airplanes they are.
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dons701
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA
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Clive J
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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It was plucked from a webpage about tuning race car engines and 1. was a
pitch from the company about them, the company.
I just tried to find it in my browsing history but drew a blank.
Wasn't anything positive about them, I'd have put that on, I do have an
open mind......about some things...
--
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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Modern F1 engines do not use cams or lifters as the lifters cannot stay in contact with a cam at the rotational speeds of the engines 18,000 rpm or so. They are generally driven by air. The advantage of a hydraulic lifter is that it always stays in adjustment. Mechanical lifters are a pain to keep in proper adjustment.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 2/20/2012 2:41:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, clive.james(at)uk.bp.com writes:
| Quote: | --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "James, Clive R" <clive.james(at)uk.bp.com>
It was plucked from a webpage about tuning race car engines and 1. was a
pitch from the company about them, the company.
I just tried to find it in my browsing history but drew a blank.
Wasn't anything positive about them, I'd have put that on, I do have an
open mind......about some things...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of
dons701
Sent: 20 February 2012 21:03
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "dons701" <burdon1(at)comcast.net>
Clive,
What happened to #1. I see #2,#3 and so on. Just thought to say maybe
I'm the only one to catch this? [Shocked] Thanks for your info. DonB
--------
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=366738#366738<= Use ilities ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site p;
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[quote][b]
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine
behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they
weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple
maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
| Quote: | 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically
operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation.
By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise
motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large
and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid
lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and
remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter
than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of
CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in
this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy.
Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total
circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain
amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base
circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
[quote] 2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers  from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
=================================== _-www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm guessing that their reputation would be in the dumpster, due to
the greater number of people who would have bought one (motorcycle or
car/truck) and ended up along the edge of the road.
Lynn
On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Martin Hone wrote:
| Quote: | All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting
the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received
adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be
like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
wrote:
<lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their
engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has
shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys
had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the
way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically
operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation.
By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise
motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold
vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large
and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid
lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and
remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter
than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of
CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in
this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy.
Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total
circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain
amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base
circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
=================================== _-www.matronics.com/
contribution================================
====================================
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
JabiruEngine-List
====================================
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
www.matronics.com/contribution _-
============================================================
|
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
=================================== _-www.matronics.com/contribution=======
===========
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List |
01234567
[quote][b]
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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Hi Pete,
That's a fair comment, except that a lot more engineering and research went into the LC heads than ever went into the original aircooled heads, or since .....
But I don't wish to get into a slanging match. Â I just wish that Jab will get to the point that it lives up to its promise,
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Â
Pete
Â
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
Â
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Â
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers  from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
========== _-www.matronics.com/contribution=======
===========
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
Â
0 12345 67
8
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nick(at)flylightning.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since 2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours. Â
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires. If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given configurations, that is just not that case.
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine  is turning the correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine from lugging along and stressing it.
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get that great fuel economy you might boast about.
I don’t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine, operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper and otherwise.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Hydraulic or solid....
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] ([email][mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com][/email]) On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
=================================== _-www.matronics.com/contribution=======
===========
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
012345678901234567
[quote][b]
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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Great report Nick. Thanks for posting. Â It is good to see that it is not all 'doom and gloom.'
Nevertheless, there is far too many factory-built, and kit-built to factory spec., aircraft that are having issues that aren't due to too rich mixture or over-propping.
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Nick Otterback <nick(at)flylightning.net (nick(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Â
We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since 2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours. Â
Â
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires. If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given configurations, that is just not that case.
Â
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine  is turning the correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine from lugging along and stressing it.
Â
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get that great fuel economy you might boast about.
Â
I don’t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine, operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Â
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper and otherwise.
Â
Nick Otterback
Â
Â
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic or solid....
Â
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Â
Pete
Â
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] ([email][mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com][/email]) On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
Â
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Â
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers  from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
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wb2ssj(at)rochester.rr.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I have been on this site from the start, and have to laugh
at all the piss and moaning about the Jabiru engines. I have a 2200 4 cyl. jab (bought in 1995) in my Kitfox and a 3300 6 cyl. in my Lightning. The only thing wrong with either one is you have to change the oil every 25 or 35 hours. I have helped 6 owners in my area that had problems with the Jabiru and each was due to improper installation. If you want problems just read each issue of sport aviation about other engines. Everybody I talk to call the sport aviation magazine the "monthly rotax service bulletin".
PS. The one problem with the 3300 in my Lightning is that its to dam fast.
Tex
[quote] -----
Original Message -----
From: Martin Hone (aerobiz1(at)gmail.com)
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
Great report Nick. Thanks for posting. It is good to see that it is not all 'doom and gloom.'
Nevertheless, there is far too many factory-built, and kit-built to factory spec., aircraft that are having issues that aren't due to too rich mixture or over-propping.
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Nick Otterback <nick(at)flylightning.net (nick(at)flylightning.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since 2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours.
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires. If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given configurations, that is just not that case.
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine is turning the correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine from lugging along and stressing it.
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get that great fuel economy you might boast about.
I don’t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine, operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper and otherwise.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic or solid....
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] ([email][mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com][/email]) On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
========== _-www.matronics.com/contribution=======
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ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
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===========
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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One of the issues of aviation that some folks have trouble understanding is the sheer differences in the production volumes between automotive and aviation. Auto engines are tested in volume and built in the millions. And they still have bad models, many of which are simply abandoned. The same is true for motorcycles. Adequate testing? Even the Lycoming and Continental engines which were basically designed in the 1930's continue to have problems.
One of the clues should be the hand-made, CNC machined, composition of the Jab. Not even designed to be mass-produced. The market for anything aviation is frightfully small compared to cars and motorcycles. It will be interesting to see how some of the newcomers to the small plane market fare considering the increased complexity of fuel injection, electronic ignition, liquid cooling, etc.
Thankfully Jabiru has been very wise in not jumping to improve the engine by adding complexity and cost. I have had both the solid lifter and hydraulic lifter 2200's. Adjusting the valves was a nuisance. Anyone who has torn down engines in some variety will recognize just how good the design of the Jab is. Frankly, even if you have to overhaul the heads every 500 hours, it is still a bargain.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/21/2012 3:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, aerobiz1(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
|
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Clive J
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 340
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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|
Like Martin said it’s good to see the good stuff on here. Good luck to everyone who has trouble free flying and long may it continue.
I agree that there’s many installation issues and there is also a certain amount of luck.
Regards, Clive(pisser and moaner, first class!
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tex Mantell
Sent: 22 February 2012 00:32
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
I have been on this site from the start, and have to laugh
at all the piss and moaning about the Jabiru engines. I have a 2200 4 cyl. jab (bought in 1995) in my Kitfox and a 3300 6 cyl. in my Lightning. The only thing wrong with either one is you have to change the oil every 25 or 35 hours. I have helped 6 owners in my area that had problems with the Jabiru and each was due to improper installation. If you want problems just read each issue of sport aviation about other engines. Everybody I talk to call the sport aviation magazine the "monthly rotax service bulletin".
PS. The one problem with the 3300 in my Lightning is that its to dam fast.
Tex
-----
Original Message -----
From: Martin Hone <mailto:aerobiz1(at)gmail.com>
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
Great report Nick. Thanks for posting. It is good to see that it is not all 'doom and gloom.'
Nevertheless, there is far too many factory-built, and kit-built to factory spec., aircraft that are having issues that aren't due to too rich mixture or over-propping.
Cheers
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Nick Otterback <nick(at)flylightning.net> wrote:
We have been installing the 3300s in our Lightning Design now since 2006. The first aircraft had solid lifter engines, all since the introduction of the hydraulic lifter have been fitted with that. Many aircraft have several hundred hours on them with out exhibiting these problems being discussed. Even a few nearing 1000hours.
We have not seen increased oil temperatures, or oil consumption, or lack of horsepower. The aircraft flying today are swinging more aggressive props than we ever have, and still pulling the RPM that Jabiru requires. If the engine were lacking in power or torque I would think that a less aggressive prop would be needed, or at least less REVS noted in given configurations, that is just not that case.
Jabiru USA has a very nice service center. Recently a 4 cylinder hydraulic lifter engine came in for the 1000 hour top end. No prior work has been done to the engine. If the valves are not opening and closing as they should you would expect to see this in the combustion chamber right? Again not the case for this engine, certainly not a babied one at that, it came out of a flight school. Now of course it was on a Jabiru airplane that has a proper cowling design. The engine is turning the correct prop to get the correct REVS, which in turn keeps the engine from lugging along and stressing it.
I guess what I see are improper installation and operation on a regular basis that in turn causes problems for the engine. Either cowl design and overheating, prop load from the guy wanting is plane to go faster than it really can, or expecting an internal combusting engine to do something special with the fuel you give it. If you over prop the engine or let it run rich for many hours you cause a lot of problems with the valve train and combusting chambers. The opposite is true when you get that great fuel economy you might boast about.
I don’t speak from hear say or theories on what I think should happen. This is from many years of experience with the engine, operation, rebuilds, and general maintenance. Many of the junk parts we collect are attributed to one of the above mentioned problems. IF you dig into what happened you usually will get the rest of the story and find it was not in-fact the engines fault by design but the end user.
Just my experiences with a wide variety of Jabiru Installations, Proper and otherwise.
Nick Otterback
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Krotje
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:13 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
Sort of like foisting water cooled heads unto an unsuspecting public and assuring that they will go to TBO when there is no evidence to support that.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:34 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Hydraulic or solid....
All good points, but the biggest mistake Jabiru made was foisting the engine onto an unsuspecting market when it hadn't received adequate testing. Can you imagine what their reputation would be like if it had powered a motor car or motorcycle ?
Marty
On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:
The short answer is they thought they were ready to make their engine behave like a Lycoming or Continental....but history has shown they weren't ready. They wanted what the big boys had...simple maintenance, but the rest of the engine got in the way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with 1229 hrs... (since 3-27-2006)
On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:15 PM, James, Clive R wrote:
2 - Positive Valve Opening. Even at lower revs a hydraulically operated valve suffers from a “soft and soggy” opening operation. By replacing this with a positive mechanical lift, a more precise motion is achieved. This leads to a faster change in manifold vacuum, greater gas speed and ……...more power!
3 - Predictable Operation. Hydraulic lifters are subjected to large and frequent variations in oil pressure and temperature. Solid lifters are a known quantity that simplify valve operation and remove such variables.
4 - Weight and friction reduction. A solid lifter is 10% lighter than it's hydraulic counterpart, and given the overall weight of CVH valve train, this is an important bonus. Any loss of weight in this area will help with engine efficiency and life expectancy. Also, a hydraulic lifter exerts a constant pressure to the total circumference of each lobe base circle resulting in a certain amount of drag. A solid lifter does not contact the camshaft base circle, so internal friction is reduced.
Remind me why they changed them?
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ednan1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:28 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm not interested in the jabiruengine anymore. tks
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ednan1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:28 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm not interested inthe jabiruengine anymore. tks
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ednan1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm not interested in the jabiruengine anymore. tks
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ednan1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm not interested in the jabiruengine anymore. tks
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ednan1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: Hydraulic or solid.... |
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I'm not interested in the jabiruengine anymore. tks
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Thanks for your info. DonB