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sandbag23(at)msn.com
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 Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch.
Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks.
-Brian
[quote][b]
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:05 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Brian,
I have been experimenting with placement of the breather tube. I haven't finished but I have found that it makes a difference on "overboard" oil. I left the whole breather tube inside the cowl near the bottom and lost very little oil. There was just a very little bit puddled just below the breather tube exit on the cowl floor. With the tube end flush with the outside of the cowl it loses more, enough oil to track the belly all the way to the tail. With it out about an inch it loses less oil than that. That's the extent of my testing so far. My plane is similar to yours where it settles around 6 qts but that is also dependent on where the breather exit is. I'm thinking that the best place for the breather exit will be somewhere in front of the exit ramp inside the cowl where I expect the pressure to be slightly higher than on the outside of the cowl.
Regards,
Ned
<><
On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:09 AM, brian sandberg <sandbag23(at)msn.com (sandbag23(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch.
Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks.
-Brian
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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I played with this a little also. I did the 'inside the cowl' trick. Problem is, the engine needs to be evacuated. I ran the breather to the airbox on my Cheetah for a while. I also thought about a PVC valve and then to the rocker box. Too much aggravation.
From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Brian,
I have been experimenting with placement of the breather tube. I haven't finished but I have found that it makes a difference on "overboard" oil. I left the whole breather tube inside the cowl near the bottom and lost very little oil. There was just a very little bit puddled just below the breather tube exit on the cowl floor. With the tube end flush with the outside of the cowl it loses more, enough oil to track the belly all the way to the tail. With it out about an inch it loses less oil than that. That's the extent of my testing so far. My plane is similar to yours where it settles around 6 qts but that is also dependent on where the breather exit is. I'm thinking that the best place for the breather exit will be somewhere in front of the exit ramp inside the cowl where I expect the pressure to be slightly higher than on the outside of the cowl.
Regards,
Ned
<><
On Feb 19, 2012, at 10:09 AM, brian sandberg <sandbag23(at)msn.com (sandbag23(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch.
Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks.
-Brian
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Would have been nice if this model of the Lycoming had some valve stem seals. Might have helped with too much oil capor in the crankcase and maybe less coking on the stems. Gee even the lowly VW and Corvair had valve stem seals!
[quote] ---
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:20 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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On 2/19/2012 8:09 AM, brian sandberg wrote:
| Quote: |
Compressions have been good at every annual for years, and power output
is still great with normal EGT/CHT across the cylinders, but I'll
recheck for blowby. I never fill more than 6 quarts and find it settles
around 5.5 quarts. It is possible that I simply didn't add as much as I
thought before the 5.5 hour flight from DC to Memphis; landed with just
more than 4 quarts remaining (cold engine) which is the lowest I've ever
seen and way below my comfort level despite the Lycoming
recommendations. Maybe 1/4-1/3 quart lost per hour doesn't seem
horrible. Perhaps the 2 straight hours in crazy turbulence entrained
extra oil overboard, although that seems like a stretch.
Breather 1-1.5 inches out like normal. Thanks.
-Brian
|
2 qts of oil in 5.5 hrs is getting a bit much, although still meeting
Lycoming's specs. I'd say your piston rings and cylinders are getting
well worn, unless you are just breaking in new cylinders and the rings
never seated properly. Pull your bottom spark plugs and see if they are
wet with oil. If so the hand writing is on the wall.
Cliff
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to be run with a minimum clearance.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Would have been nice if this model of the Lycoming had some valve stem seals. Might have helped with too much oil capor in the crankcase and maybe less coking on the stems. Gee even the lowly VW and Corvair had valve stem seals!
[quote] ---
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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You might want to run that one by your buddy Ken over at Lycon. I hear they run seals on sodium filled valves when using gapless rings.
[quote] ---
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
be run with a minimum clearance.
|
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:17 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals
Check it out here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals
See the red seal?
Ned
<><
On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> be run with a minimum clearance.
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
|
<pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier new,courier">
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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True, but no sense in making an issue
From: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>
On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
be run with a minimum clearance.
|
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would wbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List<========================
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals
Check it out here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals
See the red seal?
[img]http://thumbp4-gq1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=18014403058016300&mid=AEG3iGIAALUUT0PFjg1a0XwbFkE&midoffset=1_43049&partid=2&f=1146&fid=Inbox&httperr=1&h=600&w=600[/img]
Ned
<><
On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>
On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> be run with a minimum clearance.
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
|
<pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution"><a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:21 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
[quote] ---
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum probably translates to more HP wouldn't you think?
On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals
Check it out here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals
See the red seal?
[img]http://thumbp4-gq1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=18014403058016300&mid=AEG3iGIAALUUT0PFjg1a0XwbFkE&midoffset=1_43049&partid=2&f=1146&fid=Inbox&httperr=1&h=600&w=600[/img]
Ned
<><
On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>
On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> be run with a minimum clearance.
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
|
<pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
[b]
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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On 2/22/2012 9:56 AM, 923te wrote:
| Quote: | I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create
so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum
probably translates to more HP wouldn't you think?
On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
<mailto:teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly
> now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
>
|
Yeah, the more vacuum the more intake charge you can pull into the
cylinder and therefore more power. This would likely tend to pull more
oil past the intake valve stem if the guides don't fit pretty tight
(which they don't compared to watercooled engine). I wonder how much
more vacuum they actually pull - 1" hg. 2" hg?
Cliff
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. Or as close to that as possible.
The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in.
The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated.
Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't help. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.
30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Both local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the engines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
[quote] ---
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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I've asked Ken to elaborate. He'll get back to me.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
I think it is interesting that Lycon has found the Gapless rings create so much more vacuum that the seals are needed. That additional vacuum probably translates to more HP wouldn't you think?
On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Kinda makes that whole 'squirting oil at the valve stem' seem silly now. Not enough exposed to do any extra cooling.
From: 923TE <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Yes I would be most interested in sealing the intake valves but the certified Continentals seal both and the RV guys that are into this have sealed both. I hear that Lycon even machines the guide to fit a seal on it.
Apparently with Gapless rings, you suck a lot more oil so they started using the seals
Check it out here:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=69483&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals&page=2
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56297&highlight=Gapless+rings+seals
See the red seal?
[img]http://thumbp4-gq1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=18014403058016300&mid=AEG3iGIAALUUT0PFjg1a0XwbFkE&midoffset=1_43049&partid=2&f=1146&fid=Inbox&httperr=1&h=600&w=600[/img]
Ned
<><
On Feb 21, 2012, at 7:36 AM, flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: flyv35b <flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com (flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com)>
On 2/20/2012 6:47 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> Seals won't work on sodium filled valves. These guides are designed to
> be run with a minimum clearance.
Of course. I think he meant the intake valves, where they would work.
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<pre><b><font size=3D2 color="#000000" face=3D"courier 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= --> <a href=3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List&D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3=3D"http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Gary,
Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone
On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. Or as close to that as possible.
The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in.
The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated.
Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't help. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.
30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Both local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the engines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
[quote] ---
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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he was old 28 years ago. not sure if I have the ability to contact him at this point.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Oil Consumption
Gary,
Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone
On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. Or as close to that as possible.
The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in.
The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated.
Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't help. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.
30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Both local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the engines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
[quote] ---
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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| Quote: | Gary said:
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. Or as close to that as possible.
|
Gary:
Now that does not make sense. I don't think anyone is around that was involved in the original design of the Lycoming engine. The idea of a sodium filled valve and the extra transfer of heat because of the sodium is feasible but has proven short of goal. Our problem has always been over heating of the exhaust valve and coking on the stem of that valve. Continental uses solid stem valves and their failure mode is the same as Lycoming. There is no way of collecting data as to how many Lycoming and Continental valve failures there are.
BUT! Isn't it COKING on the valve that causes the problem? AND... What is COKING? Coking is the BURNING of OIL with the subsequent build up that causes the valve to stick. When they stick in the DOWN position the piston comes up to smash the valve head and bend the valve shank.
SO! HOW WOULD ONE PREVENT THE COKING?
BY LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE THAT CAUSES THE COKING.
AND HOW WOULD ONE DO THAT?
BY INCREASING THE COOLING BY INCREASING THE OIL FLOW OVER THE VALVE STEM. No, I'm not yelling, just emphasing the point.
Now, if this does not make sense, please explain why. I cannot accept the idea that minimal oil for heat transfer is the way to go or the intent.
Barry
Here are my thoughts:
No mater how good or bad the heat transfer is between metal to meatal (something OIL is the medium that carries the heat away.
[quote][b]
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Discover
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: Oil Consumption |
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Gary,
Are you the reason Lycoming came out with just using the push rod with an oil gallery in it on all valves?
<><
On Feb 22, 2012, at 8:32 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]he was old 28 years ago. not sure if I have the ability to contact him at this point.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: "teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)" <teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Gary,
Any way to get Wayne here on the list?
It'd be great to have a Wayne's World Forum here;)
We need to get those guys head knowledge documented before they are all gone
On Feb 22, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]I could give you all of the references to how to treat sodium filled valves, but then I'd have to go against everything Bill and Bill say.
They are wrong. Spraying extra oil on the valve stem causes coking on the valves. Oil flow to the rocker boxes on an engine with sodium valves is intentionally limited.
The reality is, sodium filled valves do their work by direct metal to metal contact. Or as close to that as possible.
The intakes could have seals. The intake (originally) used a dribble method to keep oil flow to a minimum. With very little oil on the stem, very little was sucked in.
The exhaust doesn't need them because the pressure pushes exhaust gases up the stem. What little oil is squirted by the rocker is just enough to keep the stem lubricated.
Lycoming had a knee jerk reaction to the valves in a Mooney. It doesn't help. Their research consisted of a corporate meeting. Had that corporate decision not been a waste of manpower, time, and money, all new engines would have the retro fit.
30 years ago I called Lycoming and asked to talk to one of the engineers. I wanted to know which rocker went on which valve. You see, my <700 hr Cheetah had them one way on one side and the other way on the other side. Both local AP/IAs didn't know. I eventually talked to 6 engineers. The last one gave me a phone number for a guy who worked for Lycoming 'in the old days.' His name was Wayne. Nice guy. He told me about the work done on the engines 'in the old days' and told me the correct order for the rockers. My engine had been assembled wrong at the factory.
From: 923te <923te(at)att.net (923te(at)att.net)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Consumption
Bill Marvel and Bill Scott make for some very interesting reading and have a very strong argument in the following articles:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/valves.html
Especially this article:
http://egaa.home.mindspring.com/engine2.htm
about the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A Oil Cooled Exhaust Valve Guide Kit
Their arguments seem to be verified by what Lycoming did to cool the exhaust valves with more oil flow onto the stems.
I agree that the valve stem seals certainly go counter to trying to cool them.
I guess it just depends on what you are trying to do. It's a catch 22 isn't it?
Sure would be great to see some R&D by Lycolming on these issues.
[quote] ---
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