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Okanogan Lew
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 45
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
Paul Lewis
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:14 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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turn the engine off...............
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
Paul Lewis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=368531#368531
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
|
What kind of noise? There several primary noise sources:
- ignition;
- generator commutator;
- generator voltage regulator;
- rotary inverter commutators.
Ignition noise is usually a pop-pop-pop to a machine-gun/ripping noise that increases and decreases with engine RPM. Generator noise usually comes on suddenly when you increase RPM from idle and changes in volume as you turn things on and off. Rotary inverters generally are a fairly raspy tone that is continuous.
If you have done an alternator conversion then that replaces items 2 and 3 above. If an alternator is working properly, it will be quiet. If you hear a more-or-less pure tone/whistle that changes with engine RPM, it probably means that one or more of the diodes in the alternator has failed.
So, what does it sound like?
And if you only hear it when you are transmitting but not when receiving, and it goes away if you unplug the microphone, then it is probably a mic jack grounding problem. The microphone jack(s) should be insulated from the airframe and have their own ground wire that is routed directly back to the comm radio or to the Intercom/audio panel if you have one. The mic jack should have black plastic or fiber washers insulating it from the metal panel.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Magneto Filters and spark plug wire ignition shielding braid. Look on the Aircraft Spruce website for them. Your work is not done.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 14, 2012, at 6:04 PM, "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org> wrote:
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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On Wednesday, March 14, 2012, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Magneto Filters and spark plug wire ignition shielding braid. Look on the Aircraft Spruce website for them. Your work is not done.
|
That assumes that it is radiated ignition noise, not necessarily the case.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Paul,
Although this doesn't happen very often, when it does here's a fix which
has proven successful.
You will need two of these filters from Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsMagFilter.php
Remove the P lead from the magneto and de-solder the "button" on the end
of the P-lead wire. Connect the wire you just de-soldered from the
button to the screw terminal on the P-lead. Solder the wire on the
filter to the P-lead "button" and reinstall in the magneto.
Mount the filter on one of the studs and nuts on the round accessory
case at the back of the engine. Usually you can mount it at about the
10-11 o'clock position. For the other mag, mount it's filter at about
the 1-2 o'clock position.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
On 3/14/2012 6:58 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org
<mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>> wrote:
<vplewis(at)community.org <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>>
Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the
engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug
conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
What kind of noise? There several primary noise sources:
1. ignition;
2. generator commutator;
3. generator voltage regulator;
4. rotary inverter commutators.
Ignition noise is usually a pop-pop-pop to a machine-gun/ripping noise
that increases and decreases with engine RPM. Generator noise usually
comes on suddenly when you increase RPM from idle and changes in
volume as you turn things on and off. Rotary inverters generally are a
fairly raspy tone that is continuous.
If you have done an alternator conversion then that replaces items 2
and 3 above. If an alternator is working properly, it will be quiet.
If you hear a more-or-less pure tone/whistle that changes with engine
RPM, it probably means that one or more of the diodes in the
alternator has failed.
So, what does it sound like?
And if you only hear it when you are transmitting but not when
receiving, and it goes away if you unplug the microphone, then it is
probably a mic jack grounding problem. The microphone jack(s) should
be insulated from the airframe and have their own ground wire that is
routed directly back to the comm radio or to the Intercom/audio panel
if you have one. The mic jack should have black plastic or fiber
washers insulating it from the metal panel.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
*
*
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okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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My buddy says that it is a howling steady noise that does not change with engine RPM. The plane does have the alternator conversion. It maybe the ground, which I will check today, Thanks for the help.
Paul
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 4:38 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>
Paul,
Although this doesn't happen very often, when it does here's a fix which has proven successful.
You will need two of these filters from Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsMagFilter.php
Remove the P lead from the magneto and de-solder the "button" on the end of the P-lead wire. Connect the wire you just de-soldered from the button to the screw terminal on the P-lead. Solder the wire on the filter to the P-lead "button" and reinstall in the magneto.
Mount the filter on one of the studs and nuts on the round accessory case at the back of the engine. Usually you can mount it at about the 10-11 o'clock position. For the other mag, mount it's filter at about the 1-2 o'clock position.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
On 3/14/2012 6:58 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org) <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew"
<vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org) <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>>
Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the
engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug
conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
What kind of noise? There several primary noise sources:
1. ignition;
2. generator commutator;
3. generator voltage regulator;
4. rotary inverter commutators.
Ignition noise is usually a pop-pop-pop to a machine-gun/ripping noise that increases and decreases with engine RPM. Generator noise usually comes on suddenly when you increase RPM from idle and changes in volume as you turn things on and off. Rotary inverters generally are a fairly raspy tone that is continuous.
If you have done an alternator conversion then that replaces items 2 and 3 above. If an alternator is working properly, it will be quiet. If you hear a more-or-less pure tone/whistle that changes with engine RPM, it probably means that one or more of the diodes in the alternator has failed.
So, what does it sound like?
And if you only hear it when you are transmitting but not when receiving, and it goes away if you unplug the microphone, then it is probably a mic jack grounding problem. The microphone jack(s) should be insulated from the airframe and have their own ground wire that is routed directly back to the comm radio or to the Intercom/audio panel if you have one. The mic jack should have black plastic or fiber washers insulating it from the metal panel.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com) <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)>
[url=tel:%2B1.767.617.1365]+1.767.617.1365[/url] (Dominica)
[url=tel:%2B1.916.877.5067]+1.916.877.5067[/url] (USA)
*
*
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====================================
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
[b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Paul Lewis <okanoganlew(at)gmail.com (okanoganlew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | My buddy says that it is a howling steady noise that does not change with engine RPM. The plane does have the alternator conversion. It maybe the ground, which I will check today, Thanks for the help.
|
If it is a howling steady tone and does not change with engine RPM, and if you have an alternator conversion, and it appears only on transmit, there are two possible problems:
- you are hearing interference from one of the rotary inverters that drive the gyros;
- you have RF feedback from the transmitter to the mic in the headset.
Is this a new problem that suddenly developed or has it been going on for a long time? If it has been going on since you installed the radios and changing microphones does not change the problem then I would check the grounding of the mic jack. Hopefully it is something simple like the installer just forget to put in the insulation washers but did put in the ground wire back to the avionics stack. If the avionics installer cut corners and depended on the airframe for ground you are going to need to have an avionics installer rewire the mic jack(s). If you do that I recommend you specify that they use shielded wire.
If it occurred suddenly then I would look for a possible problem with the antenna coax shield. The antenna wire consists of a center conductor surrounded by insulation then a copper braid. That copper braid needs to be continuous and unbroken from the back of the transmitter to the base of the comm antenna. If there is a break in it, it is possible that the comm will appear to otherwise work normally but it can increase RF in the cockpit that then gets picked up by the mic and fed back to the transmitter, causing a howling noise.
Try the following:
- Try using different mics and try changing the position of the headset/mic to see if that affects the situation. That will help diagnose the problem.
- Try transmitting with the gyros turned off. If it is there when the gyros are not running, that tells you the problem is not the rotary inverters and more likely RF feedback.
- Visually check the antenna cable from the back of the radio to the antenna to make sure it isn't chaffed or otherwise damaged.
- Remove the antenna and check to see that the paint has been scraped away from around the screw holes. The screw bushings on the base of the antenna form the ground connection for the antenna. Sometimes installers get lazy and don't make sure that they have good metal-to-metal contact at these points which then leads to problems like this later.
Good luck. I am sure you will find the problem. I am headed off to Front Sight to renew my 30-state CCW so won't be checking email very often for the next 6 days but I will try to check back at least once to see what your progress is.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:19 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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That's a good idea. There is also another filter which could be
considered. I have used these in the past to remove "junk" on the DC
bus and it work. Here's a link to the page on the manufacturer's web
site. http://www.lonestaraviation.com/AC-DC-Noise-Filters/
Dennis
On 3/15/2012 9:38 AM, Paul Lewis wrote:
| Quote: | My buddy says that it is a howling steady noise that does not change
with engine RPM. The plane does have the alternator conversion. It
maybe the ground, which I will check today, Thanks for the help.
Paul
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 4:38 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>>
Paul,
Although this doesn't happen very often, when it does here's a fix
which has proven successful.
You will need two of these filters from Aircraft Spruce.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsMagFilter.php
Remove the P lead from the magneto and de-solder the "button" on
the end of the P-lead wire. Connect the wire you just de-soldered
from the button to the screw terminal on the P-lead. Solder the
wire on the filter to the P-lead "button" and reinstall in the
magneto.
Mount the filter on one of the studs and nuts on the round
accessory case at the back of the engine. Usually you can mount
it at about the 10-11 o'clock position. For the other mag, mount
it's filter at about the 1-2 o'clock position.
Hope this helps.
Dennis
On 3/14/2012 6:58 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Okanogan Lew
<vplewis(at)community.org <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>
<mailto:vplewis(at)community.org <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>>>
wrote:
<vplewis(at)community.org <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>
<mailto:vplewis(at)community.org <mailto:vplewis(at)community.org>>>
Guys, my radio has back ground noise when transmitting & the
engine is running. I have installed the auto spark plug
conversion kit. Does anyone know of a fix? Thanks.
What kind of noise? There several primary noise sources:
1. ignition;
2. generator commutator;
3. generator voltage regulator;
4. rotary inverter commutators.
Ignition noise is usually a pop-pop-pop to a
machine-gun/ripping noise that increases and decreases with
engine RPM. Generator noise usually comes on suddenly when you
increase RPM from idle and changes in volume as you turn
things on and off. Rotary inverters generally are a fairly
raspy tone that is continuous.
If you have done an alternator conversion then that replaces
items 2 and 3 above. If an alternator is working properly, it
will be quiet. If you hear a more-or-less pure tone/whistle
that changes with engine RPM, it probably means that one or
more of the diodes in the alternator has failed.
So, what does it sound like?
And if you only hear it when you are transmitting but not when
receiving, and it goes away if you unplug the microphone, then
it is probably a mic jack grounding problem. The microphone
jack(s) should be insulated from the airframe and have their
own ground wire that is routed directly back to the comm radio
or to the Intercom/audio panel if you have one. The mic jack
should have black plastic or fiber washers insulating it from
the metal panel.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>
<mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>>
+1.767.617.1365 <tel:%2B1.767.617.1365> (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 <tel:%2B1.916.877.5067> (USA)
*
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rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
*
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--
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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While I am thinking about it, one other thing to try is to make sure that the mic gain in the mic and the radio are both adjusted properly. Some amplified microphones have a small adjustment in the microphone itself. You want to turn that down, usually anticlockwise, until there is no mic audio, then turn it up until you get clear, full transmit audio. The comm transmitter itself also has an adjustment for this as well. If you have Apollo/Garmin radios (SL-30 comes to mind here) there is a menu option to adjust mic gain. Some radios require pulling the radio from the panel and (sometimes) opening it up to adjust. In that case you should leave the adjustment to an avionics shop.
My experience is that often the mic gains are set too high in order to accommodate a wider range of mics and then they depend on the automatic mic level circuitry in the radio. Getting the mic gains set properly will reduce the likelihood of RF feedback and it will give you better, clearer transmit audio.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:36 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:17 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Dennis,
It is probably a good idea to do the troubleshooting before adding things in. If the avionics were working properly but now aren't, it is more likely something that has changed, not the need to add something new. It is only in very rare problem cases where I have needed to add additional filtering to the power. Filters such as the ones you suggest are already part of the stock Chinese electrical system, especially at the output of the generator (and alternators don't really need them).
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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"Background noise when transmitting" is not quite definitive enough to
troubleshoot the problem. It's true that converting to automotive spark
plug wires might cause a slight increase in receive noise. However, it
would have to be pretty darn bad for it to cause a problem with TRANSMIT
audio.
What Doc has suggested are sometimes effective cures for problems caused
by magneto or spark plug wire noise.
However, since my actual field of expertise is "radios" and RF by and
large, I tend to try and focus more specifically on what the problem
really is and where exactly it is coming from. You don't know the
answer to that yet.
So the first thing is: Did you really mean what you said? You are
getting background noise when you are transmitting and the engine is
running? Is this noise in your headset when you transmit? This is
called SIDE-TONE and is the audio you get in your headset when you hear
yourself talking on the radio while transmitting.
Get someone else to listen to your transmit audio from another aircraft
or using a handheld. Do they hear it?
What exactly.... I mean EXACTLY does this background noise sound like?
Buzz, Hum, clicking? Does it change with engine RPM speed?
UNPLUG the microphone jack from your headset where it plugs into the
aircraft. Key the radio with the Push to Talk (PTT) button. Do you
still get this same background noise with the microphone unplugged?
Unplug the whole HEADSET... all of it... key the radio again and listen
to the transmitter with a handheld... is the noise still there?
Is the radio powered from a 28 to `12 volt converter, or is it running
straight off main bus 28 volts DC?
Do you have any noise when the engine is running in RECEIVE? Tune into
a weak signal if you can find one, and listen closely. Turn the squelch
off.
This is the start.... go from there.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Have him start turning switches off to try and make it go away.
Turn off the Gyros's, turn off the alternator, start pulling circuit
breakers, etc., etc.
The idea is to narrow it down to a specific source IF POSSIBLE. If you
can't do that, you'll have to end up shot-gunning.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Actually Brian, all informed inputs should be welcome.
Even yours.
Mark
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | Actually Brian, all informed inputs should be welcome.
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My comment to Dennis was supposed to be out-of-band. I screwed up.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Okay.
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okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: Radio Noise CJ6 |
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Guys, I was able to eliminate the back ground noise from my radio transmission. And the winner is-------Brian Lloyd!! The headphones were grounded to the airframe & when I fixed that, the noise went away. Thanks to all for your help. Paul Lewis On , "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote: > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> > > > > > > Okay. > > > > > > --
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