Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

ELT Antenna

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
robert.rasmussen(at)navy.
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Greetings All,
Two questions:
1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions?

2. What is EMACS!

Thanks,
Raz


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



smime.p7s
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  smime.p7s
 Filesize:  5.5 KB
 Downloaded:  257 Time(s)

Back to top
bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.

Ed Holyoke

On 3/20/2012 2:35 PM, Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC wrote: [quote]
Quote:
Greetings All,
Two questions:
1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions?

2. What is EMACS!

Thanks,
Raz
[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

At 04:35 PM 3/20/2012, you wrote:
Quote:
Greetings All,
Two questions:
1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8
tail fairing, per
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html
instructions?

Functionally, yes . . . as long as it's a VHF only
ELT. If it's a dual band device, the antenna has special
features to offer performance on both frequencies.

As Ed mentioned, you might have some bureaucratic
briar patches to negotiate too.

Quote:
2. What is EMACS!

It's a placeholder that my email client inserts for
embedded figures. Your e-mail client may object to
displaying the figure and displays the placeholder.

You can get the 'complete' posting my going to
the http://matronics.com/forums and viewing the
thread there. The figures can be downloaded too
and placed on your own computer as you see useful
or necessary.

It's a bit of a quandary . . . it's useful to
illustrate a posting with embedded images so that
they are displayed in place with the descriptive
text . . . as opposed to making them attachments
or linking to an uploaded image on the website.
But some email clients don't handle my embedded
images well. What e-mail client are you using?

Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

THE INSTRUCTIONS CALL FOR A 22"LENGTH AND THAT IS GOOD FOR THE OLD 121MhZ
ELT. The new ETL operate close to 400 mHz therefore should have a length
just over 7". I'm sure Bob can give us the practical length.

Noel

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.

Ed Holyoke

On 3/20/2012 2:35 PM, Rasmussen, Robert CAPT USFF, N3 OTRC wrote:
Quote:
Greetings All,Two questions:1. Any problem crafting my own ELT antenna for install in an RV8 tail fairing, per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/DIY_Comm_Ant/DIY_Comm.html instructions? 2. What is EMACS! Thanks,Raz <=======================[/b]Two questions:
0
Quote:
Two questions:
1
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.
Noel wrote:
It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.
 
Noel
 
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna
 Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna


The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.

Noel wrote:
It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
0
Quote:
1
Quote:
2
Quote:
3
Quote:
4
Quote:
5
Quote:
6
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Who installs it has nothing to do whether it complies. It simply must be
installed in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, which
ensure TSO compliance. In theory the DAR inspecting the aircraft should
check that, but are not likely to look too closely. The person doing the
condition inspection annually must also ensure compliance with the test
requirements in Part 91.

On 3/22/2012 11:09 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote:

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must
be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

Noel

*From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
*Kelly McMullen
*Sent:* March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
*To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* RE: ELT Antenna

The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system
meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna
of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on
OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.

Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use
your own antenna.

Noel

*From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of
*Ed Holyoke
*Sent:* March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
*To:* aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
<mailto:aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
*Subject:* Re: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed
and might require that you use their antenna.

* *
* *
**
**
**
**
**
*http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List*
**
**
*http://forums.matronics.com*
**
**
**
*http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
**
* *
*
*


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tim2542(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

I just had mine inspected by the FAA for A/W cert. and the issue never came up at all and I do have a non TSO 'd antenna on the transponder. FWIW, I think that's about the norm . I know of several others with the same experience.
Tim

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:09 AM, "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna


The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that must comply with the TSO.
 
Noel wrote:
It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your own antenna.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and might require that you use their antenna.
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
0
Quote:
1
Quote:
2
Quote:
3
Quote:
4
Quote:
5
Quote:
6
Quote:
7
[b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.

Noel

--


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Good Evening Noel,

What country are you discussing?


In the USA, every airline pilot regularly flies without an ELT.

Personally, I would be happy to do so if it were not an FAA requirement. I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.

There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself.

Happy Skies,

Old Bob

In a message dated 3/22/2012 8:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.

Noel


[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Old Bob says:

<< Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>

His email address is Canada. His description fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.

<< I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT. >>

This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience. In Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly due to poor antenna placement) was depressing. Still ELTs managed to save lives, including mine. The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.

<< There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. >>

Disagree. My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human habitation. My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec. In the meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything. Although I was flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search & Rescue. Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location. Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error. But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location. The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help Search & Rescue determine our location.

<< I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself. >>

Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement of fact. But given human nature, mandates are not always bad. Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.

Tom Kuffel
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

3/23/2012

Hello Noel Loveys, Thank you for your inputs on this subject, but in the
interest of stamping out hearsay, gossip, and rumors regarding experimental
amateur built aircraft I'd like to point out that some of your comments are
just not applicable in the USA.

The following statements that you wrote are not correct in the USA:

1) "In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)"

2) "One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft
cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done."

3) "...so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to
90
days."

Note that the regulatory requirements for having an ELT in a US registered
civil aircraft operating in the US, and the circumstances permitted for
flying without an ELT installed, are contained in 14 CFR 91.207. That
section is too long and complicated to be copied, or even extracted in this
posting. It may be accessed here:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e13e8f64d66f124a79dbd562cbe93f0b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.4&idno=14

4) "In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an
ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics
shop."

5) "Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even
have
to carry an ELT."

They do in the USA in accordance with 14 CFR 91.207.

Thanks for your help in posting accuracy.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

==============================================================
Time: 11:11:14 AM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)
Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets
the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown
impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that
must comply with the TSO.
Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your
own antenna.
Noel
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and
might require that you use their antenna.

==========================================================

Time: 06:36:13 PM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna
In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.

Noel


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Good Morning Tom,

I not only know very little about Canada, but also do not know much about figuring out from where a message is sent. I carefully worded my answer to make it clear that I did not know.

Glad that it worked for you, but we could make similar statements about the advisability of having two engines and/or two pilots.

I do NOT feel that regulations should force me to do things which I do not wish to do.

That is political!

I fly almost entirely within the Contiguous Forty Eight.

Long before the ELT was forced upon us, I made a practice of carrying a portable radio with which I could ask for help if needed. (An early Bayside was my choice at the time.) I continue to carry a portable radio and I always carry IFR charts so I can be sure of getting on a frequency that is being heavily monitored in the area over which I am flying. Since 911, we are required to monitor guard if possible, but that has not always been so. The ELT has a terrible record. An accurate flight plan posted with a friend or the FAA has shown to have much a better success rate.

I think my way is better, but it should be my choice!

I would suggest carrying a nice new PLB. (I actually carry one in my flight bag, but that is beside the point.) The big thing is that it should be my decision, not the decision of a bureaucrat in Washington and that IS Political!

The airliners do not carry an ELT. Why should I?

Happy Skies,

Old Bob

In a message dated 3/22/2012 11:48:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, kuffel(at)cyberport.net writes:
Quote:
Old Bob says:

<< Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>

His email address is Canada. His description fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.

<< I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT. >>

This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience. In Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly due to poor antenna placement) was depressing. Still ELTs managed to save lives, including mine. The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.

<< There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. >>

Disagree. My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human habitation. My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec. In the meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything. Although I was flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search & Rescue. Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location. Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error. But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location. The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help Search & Rescue determine our location.

<< I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself. >>

Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement of fact. But given human nature, mandates are not always bad. Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.

Tom Kuffel
Quote:


[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

We here north of the 49th must have an ELT on every certified aircraft as part of the MEL (minimum equipment list) ELTs are allowed to be removed for normal scheduled maintenance or whenever the unit does not pass inspection. The units may be removed for repair that usually means replacement of the batteries (C size on the old ELTs) for a period not to exceed 90 days.
Even though our countries are close in many ways one major difference is the fact we have enormous tracts of totally desolate land and flying over that kind of territory without some kind of back up is totally crazy. As I said the one part, aside of huge cost, I don’t like about the 406mHz Elts is the fact they are all digitally assigned to a specific aircraft and there is no vehicle in place that allows the owner to swap one out. It is also illegal to install one into an aircraft that it is not assigned to. In my mind the should have a loaned code available that AMOs, FBOs and the like can put in aircraft while service is being done on the original ELT.

Years ago a bizjet went off the end of the runway at Churchill Falls, Labrador, in a snowstorm. For some reason the local tower thought the plane had overshot and gone on to an alternate airport but because of the terrain decided to start a search immediately. Within hours it became apparent they did the right thing because a check with other airports in range of the plane turned up negative. They searched the area for two weeks by helicopter and snowmobile. No results. Six months later a landing plane noticed a glint on the glide path and reporte4d it to the tower. They had found the jet. The passengers all froze to death. The ELT of that plane had been legally removed for scheduled maintenance. Had it been there all the passengers and crew would have been saved. While it is true that today we have all sorts of GPS and digital phones sometimes it is still better to have the tried and true systems as a backup. While I agree that today there are more modes of following aircraft it does give some comfort to have the ELT as a backup.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: March 23, 2012 1:05 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Good Evening Noel,

 

What country are you discussing?

 

 

In the USA, every airline pilot regularly flies without an ELT.

 

Personally, I would be happy to do so if it were not an FAA requirement. I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT.

 

There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself.

 

Happy Skies,

 

Old Bob

 

In a message dated 3/22/2012 8:36:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) writes:
Quote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

In this country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done. In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish... They don't even have
to carry an ELT. Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.

Noel http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
0
Quote:
1
Quote:
2
Quote:
3
Quote:
4
Quote:
5
Quote:
6
Quote:
7
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Here in Newfoundland we have forced liability insurance too. The one law I don’t agree with is the seatbelt law and I onluy disagree with that one for open cars that do not have roll bars.

Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of The Kuffels
Sent: March 23, 2012 2:15 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna

Old Bob says:



<<  Noel, .. What country are you discussing? >>



His email address is Canada. His description fits what little I know of Canada's regulatory environment.



<<  I do not feel one whit more secure since we were forced to install the ELT. >>



This sentiment conflicts with my direct, personal experience. In Alaska in the 1970s when ELTs were first forced upon us, the false activation rate (especially in very cold weather) and the failure to activate rate (mostly due to poor antenna placement) was depressing. Still ELTs managed to save lives, including mine. The newer GPS augmented 406 MHz system is much more effective, quickly providing a location measured in meters.



<<  There are a lot of ways to let folks know when and if you need assistance. >>



Disagree.  My Alaska crash occurred about 150 miles from any human habitation. My Idaho mountain crash was over in 15 sec. In the meantime, I was a little busy to let anyone know anything. Although I was flying with two other aircraft, they were unable to get our accurate location to Search & Rescue. Our cell phone got through to 911 long enough to let them know there were survivors but not long enough to provide our accurate location. Our 121.5 MHz ELT gave them a location 5 miles in error. But when they got in the neighborhood the ELT did help a little in narrowing our location. The moral, I want as many ways as possible to ask for assistance and help Search & Rescue determine our location.



<< I think each pilot should be able to make that decision himself or herself. >>



Of course, this is a political statement not an aviation safety statement of fact. But given human nature, mandates are not always bad. Sort of like forced automobile liability insurance.



Tom Kuffel
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
0
Quote:
1
Quote:
2
Quote:
3
Quote:
4
Quote:
5
Quote:
6
Quote:
7
[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
bakerocb



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

3/23/2012

Hello Noel, Thank you for your most courteous reply. You wrote: "New 406
mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific configuration."

This is a very important point that you make. Each of those ELT's is also
identified to a specific Owner/Operator of that specific aircraft and to a
specific Primary and Alternate 24-Hour Emergency Contact associated with
that specific ELT and aircraft along with communication information for all
of those individuals. See here:

http://www.nmea.org/Assets/elt%20406%20registration%20and%20renewal.pdf

The purpose of that contact information is to permit rapid communication
with one of those individuals should an emergency signal be received by a
satellite to confirm that the signal is not a false alarm.

Also note that it is possible on that form to submit a Change of ELT
Information or Ownership and to do it fairly quickly online at:

www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov

This would permit a fairly flexible and timely means of swapping a 406 Mhz
ELT from one aircraft to another if that became a need and one complied with
all provisions of the registration requirements.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to
gather and understand knowledge."

====================================================
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
To: <bakerocb(at)cox.net>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna
Quote:
My apologies sometimes I forget that most people on the lists are not
Canadian and there are several differences in our aviation procedures.

In Canada an aircraft flown commercially must have an ELT on board.
However
I'm not sure it has to be turned on. An ELT may be removed for servicing
for up to 90 days.

New 406 mHz. ELTs are identified to specific aircraft in specific
configuration. One of the new ELT cannot be taken out of one aircraft and
put in another. The identifier code on the ELT is "Married "to a specific
airplane. My understanding is if a large plane is converted from
passenger
to cargo it must be refitted with a new ELT as there is no vehicle to do
this.

I do like to keep up with what is going on south of the 49th so I will
have
a look through your link and at the same time I'll have another look
through
CARs, Canada's equivalent to FARs.

Thank you.

Noel


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: ELT Antenna Reply with quote

Two points for clarification. ELT's, per 91.207, are required in airPLANES, not in airCRAFT. That's why my E-LSA airplane has one but my E-LSA Weight Shift Control aircraft (i.e. Trike) does not." (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, no person may operate a U.S.-registered civil airplane unless— "
Exempted per 91.207 f (9) " Aircraft equipped to carry not more than one person".
And yes, I see how the waters are muddied by the use of airplane in the "Thou shalt" section of the rule, and aircraft in the "Thou may not" in the list of exemptions.
Thank goodness my DAR understood the rule.
Rick Girard

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 7:36 AM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)>

3/23/2012

Hello Noel Loveys, Thank you for your inputs on this subject, but in the interest of stamping out hearsay, gossip, and rumors regarding experimental amateur built aircraft I'd like to point out that some of your comments are just not applicable in the USA.

The following statements that you wrote are not correct in the USA:

1) "In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)"

2) "One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done."

3) "...so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days."

Note that the regulatory requirements for having an ELT in a US registered civil aircraft operating in the US, and the circumstances permitted for flying without an ELT installed, are contained in 14 CFR 91.207. That section is too long and complicated to be copied, or even extracted in this posting. It may be accessed here:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e13e8f64d66f124a79dbd562cbe93f0b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.4&idno=14

4) "In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop."

5) "Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have
to carry an ELT."

They do in the USA in accordance with 14 CFR 91.207.

Thanks for your help in posting accuracy.

'OC' Baker Says: "The best investment we can make is the time and effort to gather and understand knowledge."

=====================================


Time: 11:11:14 AM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna

In that case if even on an OBAM aircraft the ELT and transponder must be
installed or signed off by a certified AME (Canada) or A&P (U.S.)


Noel

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: March 21, 2012 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna


The minimum for use of ELTs is to demonstrate that the complete system meets
the TSO. Good luck with doing that with a roll your own antenna of unknown
impedance and SWR. ELTs and transponders are two items on OBAM aircraft that
must comply with the TSO.


Noel wrote:

It sure would be... but for amateur aircraft you might be able to use your
own antenna.


Noel


From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Ed
Holyoke
Sent: March 20, 2012 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: ELT Antenna


Have to look at your ELT installation instructions. The ELT is TSOed and
might require that you use their antenna.

=================================

Time: 06:36:13 PM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>
Subject: RE: ELT Antenna


In this  country any appliance on a certified aircraft with certain
exceptions has to be installed by or checked by a certified AME ( aircraft
maintenance engineer ) and the installation has to be documented in the
airframe log book and noted if there is a separate log book for the
appliance.
One of the things I do not like about the new ELT is that aircraft cannot
borrow another ELT while one is out having scheduled service done.  In the
past the AMO I worked for had a "loaner" ELT that we would put in aircraft
so they wouldn't have to fly without one... Which is legal for up to 90
days.
In fact even a licensed AME is not allowed to change the batteries on an ELT
it has to be done by an approved Avionics tech or an approved avionics shop.
Amateur built aircraft are another quintal of fish...  They don't even have
to carry an ELT.  Mind I don't know anyone who is stupid enough to fly this
land without one.

Noel




====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
  - Groucho Marx



[quote][b]


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group