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Drill speed choice

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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Greetings listers,



I've been lurking for a number of years and am about to order the kit 

for a 750.  I'm trying to decide which drill to buy.  I have always 

heard that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm drill. Is there 

a down side to turning the bit that fast?



Thanks in advance for any advice.

-- 

Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

I cannot speak to the technical aspect of this question but having drilled

about a million holes on two different ZAC projects.  You want a drill that

is light and feels good in your hand.  I use a Hitachi BSL1815X  It is an

18V Lithium-Ion Battery drill.  This drill "is the bomb."  Nicely balanced,

not to heavy, not to light Has a little light on the front and is more than

fast enough for whatever you will do on that project.  This was about $140

it Lowes but worth every penny and I am a tight ass on those kind of things

as (don) can tell you!



Also - I use a right angle pneumatic drill for tight locations.  I cannot

imagine doing this project without it, or something similar.



Steve



--

larrycmcfarland(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Hi Ray,

I'd recommend you get a drill that offers the best low speed control for

starting the drill.  I've often just established the center point by slow

drilling until it stayed there.

Higher speeds offer little advantage for most drilling, but the newer

lithium drills might be a better choice if controls are good.   I used a

Black and Decker with one pair

of 14.4 V batteries for my whole 601HDS scratch build and at 8 years after

flying it, the batteries finally got rebuilt at Batteries Plus. The beat up

looking drill is still going strong.

Moral: Don't over spend for a drill or buy batteries that are too heavy just

to get big voltage. 



Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

--

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Somewhere in the ZAC documentation there's a recommendation about drill speed, I just can't remember  what the it is.

But I can give you a suggestion or two, if you are thinking of electric cordless drills: when I am drilling a lot of holes in one working session, I find that a lighter drill is preferable. This used to mean the highest voltage are not in the game - but the recent technology may have invalidated this rule of thumb.

  I also prefer a drill that you can reverse rotation easily: I have a pair of Craftsman that have this switch in the perfect spot.

Here's one similar to mine (I suppose they don't make the one I have anymore): 

  http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00917310000P?prdNo=2 

The switch is under the word Craftsman (more precisely, under "AFTS").

  It also has a switch that allows you to lower the speed and increase torque. I don't use it a lot, but can come in handy.

And one more thing: I started with one drill, then the batteries died. Instead of buying new batteries, I bought another drill exactly like the first one (not much difference in price - batteries were/are very expensive), so I could use the two new batteries in either drill. So, I can now have bits of different sizes installed, and it speeds up the "production line".

  

Good luck



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



On 30 March 2012 17:38, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>

   

 Greetings listers,

 

 I've been lurking for a number of years and am about to order the kit for a 750.  I'm trying to decide which drill to buy.  I have always heard that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm drill. Is there a down side to turning the bit that fast?

   

 Thanks in advance for any advice.

 -- 

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 

 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

 

 ====================================

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic drill 

just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points all of you 

made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.



The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit 

turns the closer to round the hole is.  I'll look around on the zenith 

site a little more.  The drill they provide is a pneumatic that spins at 

3600 rpm, so I would like something at least that fast.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine



On 03/30/2012 04:38 PM, rayj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Greetings listers,



 I've been lurking for a number of years and am about to order the kit

 for a 750. I'm trying to decide which drill to buy. I have always heard

 that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm drill. Is there a

 down side to turning the bit that fast?



 Thanks in advance for any advice.

Brad(at)ocbis.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Ray -



I bought the 3,600 RPM Sioux drill when I started my 601. I also have a 18V

lith. Cordless drill that I use for 80% of the holes I drill.  The air drill

is nice when you need to drill out something long like the spar, but is a

pain a lot of the time for the thin sheets we are drilling.  Also, when

working in the garage late at night, turning on the compressor and the noise

of the air drill is a real bother,  hose can be a pain too. Best way to get

a round hole is drilling to size in 3 steps (3/32, 1/8, 5/32).  



Thanks - Brad

--

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

You might be interested in this article: http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html  Carlos



On 30 March 2012 19:01, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>

   

 Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic drill just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points all of you made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.

 

 The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit turns the closer to round the hole is.  .......

[b]

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Buy the small Sioux, it has great sped control.

  

 Regards,  John



CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300



Cell: 719-494-4567

Home:  303-648-3261   

  In a message dated 3/30/2012 5:03:04 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  raymondj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: rayj    <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>



Perhaps I should clarify.  I am    looking at a dedicated pneumatic drill 

just for drilling al for the kit    build.  Many of the points all of you 

made are valid.  I already    have a variety of drills.



The reason I'm asking is that as I understand    it, the faster the bit 

turns the closer to round the hole is.  I'll    look around on the zenith 

site a little more.  The drill they provide    is a pneumatic that spins at 

3600 rpm, so I would like something at least    that fast.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that    I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my    point of view." - John Prine



On 03/30/2012 04:38 PM, rayj    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: rayj    <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>



 Greetings    listers,



 I've been lurking for a number of years and am about    to order the kit

 for a 750. I'm trying to decide which drill to buy. I    have always heard

 that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm    drill. Is there a

 down side to turning the bit that    fast?



 Thanks in advance for any  the  ies  ay                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site  p;                             


	


	




 [quote][b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Good article, thanks.  I'm not sure I'm willing to drill every rivet 

hole 2 or 3 times, once is going to be plenty.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine



On 03/30/2012 06:38 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You might be interested in this article:

 http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html



 Carlos



 On 30 March 2012 19:01, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net

 <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>> wrote:



     

     <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>>



     Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic

     drill just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points

     all of you made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.



     The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit

     turns the closer to round the hole is.  .......

 *

 *

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Thanks to all. I guess I should have done my research before I posted 

the question.  Thanks for your help and sorry for taking up your time.



I found a nice page with some very useful info.  It answered my question 

in nothing flat.  Hope someone else will find it useful.



 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/CuttingSpeeds.php#Drilling


	


The answer to my question is that I can use the 6000 rpm up to a 1/4" 

bit diameter (which is the chuck size) without exceeding the recommend 

sf/m for 6061-t6.



Thanks again to all,



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine



On 03/30/2012 06:49 PM, rayj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Good article, thanks. I'm not sure I'm willing to drill every rivet hole

 2 or 3 times, once is going to be plenty.



 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN



 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine



 On 03/30/2012 06:38 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:

> You might be interested in this article:

> http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html

>

> Carlos

>

> On 30 March 2012 19:01, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net

> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>> wrote:

>

> 

> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>>

>

> Perhaps I should clarify. I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic

> drill just for drilling al for the kit build. Many of the points

> all of you made are valid. I already have a variety of drills.

>

> The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit

> turns the closer to round the hole is. .......

> *

> *

steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Just remember you aren't building the space shuttle.  Build safe, build smart and remember if you modify the plans even a little bit it can add countless hours to your project and ZAC will be of very little assistance if you do.  Try and do one thing a day no matter how small.

Happy building 

Steve Freeman

On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:02 PM, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Thanks to all. I guess I should have done my research before I posted the question.  Thanks for your help and sorry for taking up your time.

 I found a nice page with some very useful info.  It answered my question in nothing flat.  Hope someone else will find it useful.

> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/CuttingSpeeds.php#Drilling

 The answer to my question is that I can use the 6000 rpm up to a 1/4" bit diameter (which is the chuck size) without exceeding the recommend sf/m for 6061-t6.

 Thanks again to all,

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

 On 03/30/2012 06:49 PM, rayj wrote:

> 

> 

> Good article, thanks. I'm not sure I'm willing to drill every rivet hole

> 2 or 3 times, once is going to be plenty.

> 

> Raymond Julian

> Kettle River, MN

> 

> "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

> and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

> 

> On 03/30/2012 06:38 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:

>> You might be interested in this article:

>> http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html

>> 

>> Carlos

>> 

>> On 30 March 2012 19:01, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net

>> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>>

>> 

>> Perhaps I should clarify. I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic

>> drill just for drilling al for the kit build. Many of the points

>> all of you made are valid. I already have a variety of drills.

>> 

>> The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit

>> turns the closer to round the hole is. .......

>> 

>> 

>> *

>> 

>> 

>> *

> 

> 

> 

>

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Raymond,

I think the key to getting round holes is to start with a small pilot 

hole (#40) and step drill with ever larger drill bits until you get the 

size you want.  This is more important than the drill speed.  For my 

Zodiac I started all holes with #40 then used #30, #20, #10, etc until 

the proper final hole size was reached.

For the drill motor, I think the most important issue is portability and 

comfort.  That means using an electric variable speed drill - probably 

18V - that is the most comfortable you can find.  A trip to the store 

and "Trying on" all the choices is in order.  No matter what motor you 

use you will need to deburr the holes before riveting them.  This might 

be easier with a higher speed drill but that is not a central issue.

For drill bits the only way to go is 14 x 28 threaded bits.  You can get 

them at most good cutting tool stores and also at places like Aircraft 

Spruce.  The reason for using these drill bits is they won't get stuck 

at the end of the hole.  The thread gets tighter rather than slipping 

when it binds.  It is very hard to hold a #40 jobber drill in a chuck so 

it won't spin.  You need at least one holder for the bits.  You can make 

your own from 3/8 steel (or larger) or you can buy all sorts of kits 

with an assortment of threaded holders.

I suggest you buy a hand full of #40 bits (I like cobalt, but HSS is OK) 

and 2 or 3 of the other sizes thru #10.  You will break a bunch of the 

#40 bits but the others last almost forever.

One last point - you will save a lot of money and feel good about 

yourself if you learn to resharpen drill bits on a grinding wheel.  This 

is reasonably easy to do by hand or you can waste a hundred bucks or so 

on a Drill Doctor.

Good luck,

Paul

Zodiac XL, in flight test

On 3/30/2012 4:01 PM, rayj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic drill 

 just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points all of you 

 made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.

 The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit 

 turns the closer to round the hole is.  I'll look around on the zenith 

 site a little more.  The drill they provide is a pneumatic that spins 

 at 3600 rpm, so I would like something at least that fast.

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

 On 03/30/2012 04:38 PM, rayj wrote:

> 

>

> Greetings listers,

>

> I've been lurking for a number of years and am about to order the kit

> for a 750. I'm trying to decide which drill to buy. I have always heard

> that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm drill. Is there a

> down side to turning the bit that fast?

>

> Thanks in advance for any advice.

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: Drill speed choice

Raymond,

Your idea of drilling each hole once sounds good but doesn't work.

You need to "Match drill" holes with your pilot drill to get reasonably 

lined up holes in multiple pieces of metal for drilling.  Then you "Line 

drill" them with larger drill bits to get perfectly lined up holes in 

the pieces to be riveted.  You will find the "Line Drilling" to be quick 

and easy.  The pieces are held together with Clecos while doing this 

process.  After drilling the stack to the final hole size you need to 

take it apart and deburr all the sheets of metal.  After reassembly you 

fasten the stack together with rivets.

Have fun,

Paul

On 3/30/2012 4:49 PM, rayj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Good article, thanks.  I'm not sure I'm willing to drill every rivet 

 hole 2 or 3 times, once is going to be plenty.

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

 On 03/30/2012 06:38 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:

> You might be interested in this article:

> http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html

>

> Carlos

>

> On 30 March 2012 19:01, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net

> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>> wrote:

>

>     

> <mailto:raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>>

>

>     Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic

>     drill just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points

>     all of you made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.

>

>     The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit

>     turns the closer to round the hole is.  .......

> *

> *

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:44 am Post subject: Drill speed choice

Ray:



There is NO simple answer.  Get a "Machinist Handbook", the drill speed and type of drill bit is determined by material you will be hoping to drill.  The Machinist Handbook has a chapter on SPEEDS & FEEDS.  This will save your butt many a time, the entire book is VERY helpful for so, so many subjects.  Great reference book.  If you are building you can not LIVE without it.  It comes out in a new volume every few years, you may be able to get an old copy from the library.

 



Barry



On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 7:01 PM, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>

 



 Perhaps I should clarify.  I am looking at a dedicated pneumatic drill just for drilling al for the kit build.  Many of the points all of you made are valid.  I already have a variety of drills.

 

 The reason I'm asking is that as I understand it, the faster the bit turns the closer to round the hole is.  I'll look around on the zenith site a little more.  The drill they provide is a pneumatic that spins at 3600 rpm, so I would like something at least that fast. 

 

 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN

 

 "And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

 and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine

 



 On 03/30/2012 04:38 PM, rayj wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)>

 

 Greetings listers,

 

 I've been lurking for a number of years and am about to order the kit

 for a 750. I'm trying to decide which drill to buy. I have always heard

 that faster is better so I'm looking at a 6000 rpm drill. Is there a

 down side to turning the bit that fast?

 

 Thanks in advance for any advice.

 	
 

 ====================================

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



[b]

Geoff Heap

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 266
Location: Lindenwold, New Jersey

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Drill speed choice

Hi Raymond. The Littlemachineshop info you are referencing is useless for building an aluminum airplane. You need to listen to your peers. I repeat here my answer to your same post on the 701/801 site.It's not that there's a downside to running that fast. There's just no point to it. I've been a machinist all my life (so far) and I'm 62 so picking a sheet metal airplane to build was a no brainer. I've made the whole thing with regular cheap electric corded and cordless drills. Please donâ€™t waste your money. A lot of the time you're going to want to run the drill pretty slow anyway. Like for using reamers. 6000 rpm is for machining aluminum in a CNC mill. To drill at 6000 rpm the drill needs to be moving through the aluminum at 20 to 30 inches per minute. You can't do that. You donâ€™t have the control. A machine does. At that speed it will drill through a .025 sheet in .01 seconds. Iâ€™d rather not have anything in my hand thatâ€™s turning at 6000 rpm. If you email me I'll give you a shopping list of cheap tools for holemaking that will serve you well. Good luckâ€¦â€¦Geoff     Lose this point of view Raymond.

_________________
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom. Electric flaperons.

Geoff Heap

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 266
Location: Lindenwold, New Jersey

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Drill speed choice

I forgot to mention. At 6000 rpm with just hand pressure, instead of making aluminum chips you'll make dust. that will wear the drill out fast....Geoff

_________________
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom. Electric flaperons.

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