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FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Hi All,



Wanted to do a quick poll and see if anyone has had 

any problems with their tanks that they've attributed 

to using ethanol blended fuel?  Mine are Kreem coated 

and have been fine for the last 10 yrs but I'm 

nervous.



As of now all the stations in Houston are pretty much 

10% ethanol.  The last batch of fuel I purchased was 

still MTBE based.  I've been testing.  Anyway, now 

that burning some ethanol is a given (I don't want to 

switch to avgas due to the 912 & lead as well as 

price) I thought I'd check.



Thanks,



Ted

jimmieblackwell(at)sbcglo
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Ted

   

  Mine is 12 years old and always been flown either out of Houston or the Austin area.  No problem so far, (knock on wood).

   

  Jimmie



flier <FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  



Hi All,



Wanted to do a quick poll and see if anyone has had 

any problems with their tanks that they've attributed 

to using ethanol blended fuel? Mine are Kreem coated 

and have been fine for the last 10 yrs but I'm 

nervous.



As of now all the stations in Houston are pretty much 

10% ethanol. The last batch of fuel I purchased was 

still MTBE based. I've been testing. Anyway, now 

that burning some ethanol is a given (I don't want to 

switch to avgas due to the 912 & lead as well as 

price) I thought I'd check.



Thanks,



Ted

flier(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Thanks Jimmie.  I think it's mostly going to be owners out on the west coast

or up north as I believe ethanol has been more prevalent in those areas in

the past.  I'm looking for comments from anyone that has actually had

ethanol blended gas in their tanks for a long time.



Regards,



Ted



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Ted,  I haven't checked the ethanol level lately, but did during the  6% 

period.  My guess is that it is higher than that now.  My feeling is that we 

are under the control, fuel wise, of powers that we have no direct control 

over.  The thought of the lead in 100LL is not an option in my mind despite 

the lead scavengers (TCP and the like).  I have run 100LL from time to time 

as we fly out of the area on our trips to the back country and I see the 

buildup in the oil tank at oil changes of the lead residue and I can only 

imagine what is in the grear box.  I did change out to auto fuel lines as 

these are formulated for the exact fuels we are using.



That said, I did have a tank begin leaking after about the 4th year of 

flying.  Interesting enough it was first noticed during one of the Idaho 

trips after about 4 days of flying with 100LL -  go figure.  The first 

indication was very small blisters on the top surface of the left wing.  The 

largest were about 1/4" in diameter and the others were mostly felt as you 

ran your hand over the area.  I ignored it for a couple of years then 

resloshed that wing tank with Kreem - alcohol resistant.  I went with the 

Kreem because of the track record.  I felt that with all the talk and the 

numbers of users that the inherent problems could be controlled.  I didn't 

want the be the Kitfox beta tester for something new.



I made a fixture that exactly fit the wing tip cushioned with felt  and 

supported with a gimbaled joint.  The inboard end of the wing was supported 

by a hinged device that I could fold out of the way.  Everything was on 

casters for mobility.    I did discover that strict attention to the Kreem 

instructions is a very good idea.  I won't go into details on that, but I 

have been leak free for two years now, but keeping on the alert.



I can give more details for those needing the info.  I hope none do as the 

whole thing is no fun, and that is speaking mildly.



Lowell

---

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Thanks Lowell.  Good input.  I'm concerned about 

those fiberglass tanks.  I know the gas I've used for 

the past nearly 10 yrs has been alcohol free.  I 

really hate to start now but there's no alternative.



I guess we might be OK if we all ended up with tanks 

that were Kreem sloshed properly.  I have my doubts 

tho.  I'm just hoping we don't end up with a rash of 

Kitfox tanks failing over the next couple of yrs as 

the 10% ethanol blend starts getting used by everyone.



I've about decided that if I end up with leaks I'll 

likely build aluminum tanks to fit inside the 

fiberglass hulls and recover both wings.



Regards,



Ted



--- Original Message ---

From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Kitfox tanks and blended 

ethanol



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Ted,  I haven't checked the ethanol level lately, 

but did during the  6% 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  period.  My guess is that it is higher than that 

now.  My feeling is that we 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  are under the control, fuel wise, of powers that we 

have no direct control 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  over.  The thought of the lead in 100LL is not an 

option in my mind despite 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  the lead scavengers (TCP and the like).  I have run 

100LL from time to time 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  as we fly out of the area on our trips to the back 

country and I see the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  buildup in the oil tank at oil changes of the lead 

residue and I can only 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  imagine what is in the grear box.  I did change out 

to auto fuel lines as 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  these are formulated for the exact fuels we are 

using.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

That said, I did have a tank begin leaking after 

about the 4th year of 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  flying.  Interesting enough it was first noticed 

during one of the Idaho 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  trips after about 4 days of flying with 100LL -  go 

figure.  The first 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  indication was very small blisters on the top 

surface of the left wing.  The 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  largest were about 1/4" in diameter and the others 

were mostly felt as you 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  ran your hand over the area.  I ignored it for a 

couple of years then 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  resloshed that wing tank with Kreem - alcohol 

resistant.  I went with the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Kreem because of the track record.  I felt that with 

all the talk and the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  numbers of users that the inherent problems could be 

controlled.  I didn't 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  want the be the Kitfox beta tester for something new.



I made a fixture that exactly fit the wing tip 

cushioned with felt  and 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  supported with a gimbaled joint.  The inboard end of 

the wing was supported 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  by a hinged device that I could fold out of the 

way.  Everything was on 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  casters for mobility.    I did discover that strict 

attention to the Kreem 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  instructions is a very good idea.  I won't go into 

details on that, but I 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  have been leak free for two years now, but keeping 

on the alert.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

I can give more details for those needing the info.  

I hope none do as the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  whole thing is no fun, and that is speaking mildly.



Lowell

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

On May 26, 2006, at 7:23 PM, flier wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've about decided that if I end up with leaks I'll

 likely build aluminum tanks to fit inside the

 fiberglass hulls and recover both wings.


	


Maybe a silly question but ... couldn't the tanks be made ethanol 

resistant by coating the inside with epoxy?

Just wondering. Incidentally, there are still no Ethanol in the 

Norwegian MOGAS but by the end of the year, there might be as much as 

5%, as a governmental and environmental decision.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

 	  Quote: 	
		   Maybe a silly question but ... couldn't the tanks be made ethanol

 resistant by coating the inside with epoxy?

 Cheers,

 Michel



 do not archive


	


Michel,

    I did just that on my tanks.  Cut them open and coated the interiors 

with West Systems Epoxy (after removing the cracking Kreeme).  However, my 

opinion is that nothing you put inside the tanks as a coating would protect 

the fiberglass itself against a harmful fuel.  Even a pinhole that you 

missed will allow the fuel to reach the fiberglass.  That would be like 

building a fuel tank out of Styrofoam and coating it with something to 

prevent the gasoline from eating the Styrofoam.  I doubt a Styrofoam tank 

would last a day.

dave(at)cfisher.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Don,



I cannot find link but there is a product that is compatible with ethanol . 

I think it was called  red- something.

besides most gas stations have fiberglass  tanks and contain ethanol fuel.



I have no idea if our fuel in Canada has ethanol yet or what percentage but 

so far , so good .



I have heard of some tank's lining turning to gel and clogging up fuel 

filters.



Dave



PS   styrofoam gets eaten by gas.   I have made tanks out of it as a plug 

and disolved the styrofoam with gas.

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

On May 26, 2006, at 9:46 PM, Don Smythe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I did just that on my tanks.  Cut them open and coated the interiors

 with West Systems Epoxy (after removing the cracking Kreeme).


	


Well, Don and Dave, what I did was to call Shell Norway  (because I use 

a Shell station to fill my cans of MOGAS) and asked them about ethanol 

in Norway. A person answered that there was still none but that it 

would come shortly, as part of a request from the European Union 

directives.

I mentioned then my  worry for our fiberglass tanks. To which that 

person was interested because - as you say, Dave - many petrol station 

tanks are made of fiberglass but ... coated with epoxy.

But I agree with Don that a coating should be done thoroughly  if it is 

supposed to work. Did you clean your tanks with acetone before coating 

them, Don?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

 	  Quote: 	
		   supposed to work. Did you clean your tanks with acetone before coating

 them, Don?



 Cheers,

 Michel


	


Michel,

    When I had the tanks cut open I cleaned with acetone and MEK using paint 

brushes and tooth brushes for all the cracks and corners then went over all 

surfaces with rough sand paper.  I applied the West Epoxy with a small brush 

in the seams/corners and a plastic spreader for all the flat surfaces.   I 

did not want the epoxy to build up too thick so it would crack.



Don Smythe

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

And Skystar used the exact same resin that is used in your local gas 

station. It is compatible with ethanol. Trouble is: 1) They didn't 

start using the new resin until late in the M4 or M5 production run. 

2) pinholes could still be present. This product is called something 

like ~Aflac~, but I have no idea how it is spelled. If someone does 

not give us the correct name for this resin then I will have to do a 

lot of digging. Like Don I found a coating but its not West, I used a 

Randolf coating that is suppose to be compatible. But the plane is 

still not finished so I have no report if it is true.



BTW, Using a resin to coat the tank is a big deal. Just ask Don about 

all the trouble he went to. The epoxy resin is much harder to use 

than a sloshing liquid.



The best solution if you have a leak is to do the research and re 

slosh coat the tanks with the best stuff you can find.  BTW, My early 

tanks were coated with The old Kreme and when I pressurized them for 

a leak test there were pinhole leaks on the top surface. 

Interestingly the pinholes were where the grey epoxy paint had been scratched.



I think we are all in trouble when the standard auto fuel becomes E85 

because the engine will have low performance even if your fuel system 

does not ge corroded and fail..



Regards, Paul

=============================

At 02:04 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Don,



I cannot find link but there is a product that is compatible with ethanol .

I think it was called  red- something.

besides most gas stations have fiberglass  tanks and contain ethanol fuel.



I have no idea if our fuel in Canada has ethanol yet or what percentage but

so far , so good .



I have heard of some tank's lining turning to gel and clogging up fuel

filters.



Dave

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

I have done a little research on  alcohol / fuel resistent resins for a 

project I have been working on for the past several years and (please verify 

this info before using it to modify anything in your fuel sustems) this is 

what I "think" I have found.



First there are many formulations for epoxy resins.  Some are more chemical 

resistant than others.  The info I have seems to indicate that the "hard" 

resins are more chemical resistant vs. the "structural resins that are 

"softer" and more fracture resistant.  Lancair for example will paint a fuel 

resistant coating on the internal surfaces of all fuel bays before closing 

the wing.  In fact they recommend covering onto the mating surfaces 

(capstrips) about 1/8inch so that the Hysol will overlay the fuel coating 

that much and the squeeze out will give that much more protection.  Of 

course the wing spars, ribs and capstrips are formed of a structural epoxy - 

glass or carbon fiber composite.



In my application, I have found that the best result is achieved by covering 

with the hard epoxy followed by two layers of an alcohol resistant tank 

sealer.  Most tank sealers are formulated for auto fuels and designed for 

metal tanks.



Lowell

---

flier(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

All very good discussions.  That's what I wanted to get started to see if

anyone comes up with other creative ideas.  All us auto gas types will have

the problem eventually.  Just those in the US immediately!



I've even toyed with simply draining my tanks after every flight.  Spending

a few hundred bucks to set up a pump system to keep from spending the money

to redo the tanks and covering.  I personally am more concerned about the

tanks than the rest of the fuel system as the rest of the system (lines,

etc) is pretty easily replaced as compared to those darn tanks.  The 912

carbs should not be a problem.



Keep the ideas coming!  :^)



Thanks,



Ted

jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Paul,

	It is ATLAC.. I have looked into it some.. very short self life and very

difficult to come by.. also needs to be purchased in large quantities..

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:38 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

I did forget to mention in my post that the vinyl ester resins are quite 

fuel resistant.  They do require activation which gives a limited shelf life 

and will of course need a hardner when used in a lay-up.



In fact I did a Google search to check the spelling and found a RC site 

discussing this resin for alcohol based RC fuels with good recommendations.



Lowell



---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Thanks, John

===============

At 11:18 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



Paul,

         It is ATLAC.. I have looked into it some.. very short self 

 life and very

difficult to come by.. also needs to be purchased in large quantities..

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

www.sportplanellc.com

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"



--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

On May 26, 2006, at 11:47 PM, Don Smythe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When I had the tanks cut open <SNIP>


	


Wow, you  really did a thorough job, Don!



On May 27, 2006, at 12:49 AM, PWilson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    The epoxy resin is much harder to use

 than a sloshing liquid.


	


Are you sure, Paul? Isn't it possible to "slosh" the tanks with West 

System epoxy? If you use very little catalyser and turn the tank in all 

direction long enough? My experience with West System is that, if it 

gets time to do it, it will really flow everywhere, only leaving a very 

thin layer of resin.

West System is a special type of epoxy, primarily designed for building 

yachts in wood veneer bounded in epoxy. The very low viscosity of the 

epoxy makes it to impregnate the wood and creates an extremely solid 

bound.



I don't know but I think one could slosh West System epoxy. What do you 

think?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

bnn(at)nethere.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

At 10:49 AM 5/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are you sure, Paul? Isn't it possible to "slosh" the tanks with West

System epoxy? If you use very little catalyser and turn the tank in all

direction long enough?


	


         I think you're very optimistic, Michel. First of all, you can't 

vary the catalyst with epoxy, but you can slightly thin some epoxies with 

acetone. Saying West epoxy has low viscosity is strictly a relative term. 

Yes it has lower viscosity than other epoxies but it's definitely not going 

to be wicking into any pin-holes. The best you could hope for is that it 

would successfully bridge the pin-holes with a thick enough layer of epoxy 

to seal the tank. Unfortunately my experience with pin-holes on the outside 

of overly dry laminates is that for some reason, (high surface tension 

probably,) epoxy doesn't like to bridge pin-holes, rather it exacerbates 

them. If you really wanted to fill pin-holes, you'd slosh with thin 

cyanoacrylate. That stuff wicks like crazy. (We use it to do emergency 

repairs of dinged laminates. It wicks right in and seals the damage, 

preventing water ingress.) Unfortunately I don't know if it's fuel 

resistant, and the fumes would probably kill you!.

         On another note, the fiberglass tank industry does coat the inside 

of their tanks with something. I'll try to find out what.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

Guy,



Would that stuff slosh before it hardens?  I thought

even the slow stuff gets stiff fast.  At least the

stuff in hobby shops.



My sloshed tanks are doing fine for now, but I expect

to have to "maintain" them sooner or later.



Kurt S.



--- Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   .....If you really wanted to fill pin-holes, you'd

 slosh with thin cyanoacrylate.


	


__________________________________________________

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol

I never tried it. I just believe that Don's process is what would be 

necessary. I believe it would be worthwhile to try it. My experience 

with the West system was pretty viscous final product. I am not very 

experienced with epoxy and thought one had to use the recommended 

ratios when mixing.

Paul

=========================

At 11:49 AM 5/28/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On May 26, 2006, at 11:47 PM, Don Smythe wrote:

 > When I had the tanks cut open <SNIP>

Wow, you  really did a thorough job, Don!

On May 27, 2006, at 12:49 AM, PWilson wrote:

 >  The epoxy resin is much harder to use

 > than a sloshing liquid.

Are you sure, Paul? Isn't it possible to "slosh" the tanks with West

System epoxy? If you use very little catalyser and turn the tank in all

direction long enough? My experience with West System is that, if it

gets time to do it, it will really flow everywhere, only leaving a very

thin layer of resin.

West System is a special type of epoxy, primarily designed for building

yachts in wood veneer bounded in epoxy. The very low viscosity of the

epoxy makes it to impregnate the wood and creates an extremely solid

bound.

I don't know but I think one could slosh West System epoxy. What do you

think?

Cheers,

Michel

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