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Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

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sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed 

off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch 

with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.



I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I 

do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually 

touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and 

the door would be too large.



His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a 

difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full 

radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?



Thanks,



-Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Hi Sean



There is a very big difference - I believe it is the colour. 



Cheers



Les



Ps. I was told by someone who knows that there really isn't any difference. 



Sent from my iPhone



On 2012-04-09, at 6:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

 

 I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

 

 His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

 

 Thanks,

 

 -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Sean,

Part of installing the seal is to build up the area on both sides of the old gutter rail.  Once you cut it flat it needs to be extended out and thickened both on the inside and the out.  Ultimately, the seal will be about 50% compressed when you are complete.  Here is how my seal fits.

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_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

There are differences, but they arent significant.   The pink tops are slightly better finished.  Only important if you aren't using a headliner. 

There appears to be two different pink top molds, as well as the green mold, that have the step up behind the front seat line in different places.  it makes delivering an after market overhead more difficult.

I'm not aware of any differences around the door gutter.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 9, 2012, at 9:17 PM, Les Kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hi Sean

 There is a very big difference - I believe it is the colour. 

 Cheers

 Les

 Ps. I was told by someone who knows that there really isn't any difference. 

 Sent from my iPhone

 On 2012-04-09, at 6:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

> 

> I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

> 

> His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

> 

> 

> 

>

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Be careful on ordering the trim.  If I remember Les's doc, the picture showed a version of the seal with the barb on the exterior.  You'll want the version that has the barb on the inside of the door frame. You don't want the barb to add thickness to the seal into between the free and the door. 



Go to Ivan Kristense's phanfare.com photo site.   In the middle o f his door photos, there is a video showing in detail how to trim the door gutter.



I cut off the full radius and my doors are very tight fitting with the seals on.  I have a pink top.  



Sent from my iPad



On Apr 9, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

 

 I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

 

 His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

 

 Thanks,

 

 -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Hi Again

Bob is right about my seals. That being said, I did make mine work. I am not sure if the barb orientation makes a significant difference but would probably go with the inside barb if I was doing things again. 

Cheers

Les

Cheers 

Les

Sent from my iPhone

On 2012-04-09, at 8:27 PM, Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Be careful on ordering the trim.  If I remember Les's doc, the picture showed a version of the seal with the barb on the exterior.  You'll want the version that has the barb on the inside of the door frame. You don't want the barb to add thickness to the seal into between the free and the door. 

 Go to Ivan Kristense's phanfare.com photo site.   In the middle o f his door photos, there is a video showing in detail how to trim the door gutter.

 I cut off the full radius and my doors are very tight fitting with the seals on.  I have a pink top.  

 Sent from my iPad

 On Apr 9, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

> 

> I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

> 

> His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

> 

> 

> 

>

sean(at)stephensville.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Ivan's pictures were a big help.  After looking at them and the video it 

seems like the following rough steps can be taken.

- Once the doors are trimmed to fit, mark the interior edge of the 

gutter for a consistent gap (less than 3/8 for the bulb)

- Sand down the radius to marks on interior edge of gutter and trim/sand 

gutter width to dimensions at various locations given by Ivan

- Fill/sand to achieve necessary gutter thickness of 1/4 inch for 

attaching seal

Thanks for pointing me to Ivan's pictures.

-Sean

On 4/9/12 9:27 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Be careful on ordering the trim.  If I remember Les's doc, the picture showed a version of the seal with the barb on the exterior.  You'll want the version that has the barb on the inside of the door frame. You don't want the barb to add thickness to the seal into between the free and the door.

 Go to Ivan Kristense's phanfare.com photo site.   In the middle o f his door photos, there is a video showing in detail how to trim the door gutter.

 I cut off the full radius and my doors are very tight fitting with the seals on.  I have a pink top.

 Sent from my iPad

 On Apr 9, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Sean Stephens<sean(at)stephensville.com>  wrote:

> 

>

> I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

>

> I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

>

> His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

>

>

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

We were the first to use the McM seal. We started a grinder and added a spacer for even reveal. Seemed to work out well on the old top. 



Robin



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mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

That all  sounds about right.  Getting the barb on the right side helps.  



Two other things:

If you plan any sort of fabric covering for the door, you have to account for that in the bulb gap.  Flightline's interior would be an example



Don't trim for final length until you are absolutely finished with the gap work.  Any gap work increases the length of seal.  You can patch it, or better yet just buy the full 50/100 foot length so you can do it 2 or 3 times, then sell extra to a friend.  DAHIK



Bill 

Sent from my iPad



On Apr 10, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Sean Stephens <sean(at)stephensville.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ivan's pictures were a big help.  After looking at them and the video it seems like the following rough steps can be taken.

 

 - Once the doors are trimmed to fit, mark the interior edge of the gutter for a consistent gap (less than 3/8 for the bulb)

 - Sand down the radius to marks on interior edge of gutter and trim/sand gutter width to dimensions at various locations given by Ivan

 - Fill/sand to achieve necessary gutter thickness of 1/4 inch for attaching seal

 

 Thanks for pointing me to Ivan's pictures.

 

 -Sean

 

 On 4/9/12 9:27 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:

> 

> 

> Be careful on ordering the trim.  If I remember Les's doc, the picture showed a version of the seal with the barb on the exterior.  You'll want the version that has the barb on the inside of the door frame. You don't want the barb to add thickness to the seal into between the free and the door.

> 

> Go to Ivan Kristense's phanfare.com photo site.   In the middle o f his door photos, there is a video showing in detail how to trim the door gutter.

> 

> I cut off the full radius and my doors are very tight fitting with the seals on.  I have a pink top.

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

> On Apr 9, 2012, at 8:48 PM, Sean Stephens<sean(at)stephensville.com>  wrote:

> 

>> 

>> 

>> I've read Les' document on using McMaster Carr door seals.  He trimmed off the entire radius on the door gutter.  I ordered the same 1/4 inch with 3/8 inch bulb seals he used.

>> 

>> I have yet to trim off the full radius as he did, but it seems that if I do, there will me no way the 3/8 inch bulb will be enough to actually touch and seal against the door.  Seems the gap between the gutter and the door would be too large.

>> 

>> His doc showed the older green canopy instead of the pink.  Is there a difference there?  Did others using the McMaster seals trim off the full radius on the gutter and have it work with the 3/8 inch bulb?

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> 

>> -Sean #40303 (very dim light at the end of the tunnel)

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

I used the McMaster seals as well,  but did the following:



After grinding the gutter lip down,  I took a scrap piece of door seal about 

3 foot long and filled it (about 50% full) with epoxy/structural filler mix 

and applied it to the door frame.  When cured I had the perfect mating 

detail for the door seal as part of the cabin top.     Step and repeat 

around the door frame opening then discard the scrap seal and use new seal 

for the final installation.



The following album has the details,     seal pictures start about 1/3 of 

the way into the album.



https://picasaweb.google.com/aviator1964/DoorsLatchesSeals?authuser=0&feat=directlink





Bob Newman

N541RV   flying



--

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

We each build our own airplanes and make our own decisions â€“ please donâ€™t take this as criticism just food for thought.  I had a conversation with Ken K. regarding drilling holes in the gutter in order to add sun visors the cabin top, specifically the cabin top posts.  Ken indicated that one of the challenges in the design was getting the cabin top to pass the inverted drop test.  He was visibly uncomfortable with the idea of drilling any holes in the gutter to mount visors, for those who have had conversations with Ken K. in person you may know the wince he gives.



By removing the entire inside radius of the gutter in order to install the McMaster Carr style seal you are significantly changing the section modulus of the cabin top post and COULD be significantly increasing the likelihood of a cabin top failure in a roll over type accident.  Just something to consider as you make what may seem to be a harmless improvement to the design.



Again, these are your decisions â€“ I am only trying to provide an alternate perspective to the decision.



Thanks â€“ Jason

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Maybe it's obvious, but maybe not... After cutting the door edges flush and sanding, I used an ~18" section of door seal as a mold. Filling each section with structural epoxy made for a really tight fit and minimal additional prep work to get the seal right. Just add cosmetic filler to blend into the cabin top and door edges. I bought lots more edge than required as it tends to get tired and look wavy after fitting lots of times (you can see some of that in the photos). Save the good stuff for the end. 



Regards,

Jay

finishing up

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johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

I ran into the same problem with fabric covering the door - I didn't account for it and ended up with the door seal too tight, so I had to trim the fabric short.



As a side note, everyone please try to size down your photos before posting, it takes too much side scrolling to read the message. All it takes is one huge photo.



John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Giving due consideration to the desirability of keeping the gutter,

one has to consider the other weather striping options. The stock Vans

stuff doesn't look all that hot. Other suggestions?



On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:35 AM, jkreidler

<jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   By removing the entire inside radius of the gutter in order to install the McMaster Carr style seal you are significantly changing the section modulus of the cabin top post and COULD be significantly increasing the likelihood of a cabin top failure in a roll over type accident.  Just something to consider as you make what may seem to be a harmless improvement to the design.



 Again, these are your decisions – I am only trying to provide an alternate perspective to the decision.



 Thanks – Jason


	




 	  Quote:

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Kelly, we used seals made by Abby at Flightline Interiors.  They are custom made to match the interior colors, in our case she made them from light grey material.  They look great, match, and work.we also attached them to the door just a bit differently.  We had Velcro sewn to the back of the seal, then attached Velcro to the door.  This way we could adjust the seal as required, that has proven to work fine (370 hours).  No pictures handy,sorry - Jason

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

I used the ones on this page.



http://www.rvtraining.com/html/atp/html/accessories.html



They work great for me.....a little pricy.  



Rene' Felker

N423CF

801-721-6080



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:39 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Thanks Rene',

That looks like the easiest solution, should eliminate a lot of rework 

of the gutter.



On 4/13/2012 6:00 AM, Rene Felker wrote:

[quote] 



 I used the ones on this page.



 http://www.rvtraining.com/html/atp/html/accessories.html



 They work great for me.....a little pricy.



 Rene' Felker

 N423CF

 801-721-6080



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

We're very happy with the foam seals that Alex sells. Straightforward installation, expecially compared to the rest of the door work....   ]



http://www.aviationtechproducts.com



John Ackerman

40458

On Apr 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Giving due consideration to the desirability of keeping the gutter,

 one has to consider the other weather striping options. The stock Vans

 stuff doesn't look all that hot. Other suggestions?

 

 On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:35 AM, jkreidler

 <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:

> 

 

> By removing the entire inside radius of the gutter in order to install the McMaster Carr style seal you are significantly changing the section modulus of the cabin top post and COULD be significantly increasing the likelihood of a cabin top failure in a roll over type accident.  Just something to consider as you make what may seem to be a harmless improvement to the design.

> 

> Again, these are your decisions – I am only trying to provide an alternate perspective to the decision.

> 

> Thanks – Jason

 

 

>

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: Door Gutter and McMaster Seals

Love'em too.  Simple and I've flown with them in past.  They're quite tight and I couldn't find any leaks anywhere in the door.  I made a point to look for them while we were in route.  



They're great. 



Sent from my iPhone



On Apr 13, 2012, at 11:38 AM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 We're very happy with the foam seals that Alex sells. Straightforward installation, expecially compared to the rest of the door work....   ]

 

 http://www.aviationtechproducts.com

 

 John Ackerman

 40458

 

 

 On Apr 12, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Giving due consideration to the desirability of keeping the gutter,

> one has to consider the other weather striping options. The stock Vans

> stuff doesn't look all that hot. Other suggestions?

> 

> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 5:35 AM, jkreidler

> <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com> wrote:

>> 

> 

>> By removing the entire inside radius of the gutter in order to install the McMaster Carr style seal you are significantly changing the section modulus of the cabin top post and COULD be significantly increasing the likelihood of a cabin top failure in a roll over type accident.  Just something to consider as you make what may seem to be a harmless improvement to the design.

>> 

>> Again, these are your decisions â€“ I am only trying to provide an alternate perspective to the decision.

>> 

>> Thanks â€“ Jason

> 

> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

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