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Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

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miyer2u

Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

John/Team,

I am trailering my Kolb to fly these sites and wanted some knowhow!

Since many of you have flown these sites, I wanted to understand any caution that comes to your minds. 

Bryce is located at almost 7600 feet so did you find a great difference with a firestar climbing out with a Rotax 503? Is it underpowered for take off in such high elevations with high density altitude?

Also at monument valley, any cautions and wanted to know the service ceiling for a Firestar-2.



Thanks in advance!

Mahesh

FS-2

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

Hi Mahesh -

I haven't seen any responses to your questions, and although my experience is limited to three flights to Monument Valley and Bruce Canyon, I'll share my experiences. As you know, I was flying a Maxair Drifter, not a Kolb, but I was flying with a 503, so there is one area of similarity. Depending on the flight, I was flying with either a Thundergull with a 503, a Carrera with a 503, and a Skyraider with a 447.



1. At Bryce, both I and my fellow pilots used up almost the entire runway taking off. However, we were taking off in the afternoons and evenings. If you take off in the cool of the morning you probably would have an easier time climbing. After rotation, I was climbing VERY slowly, at about 200'/minute. (I  usually climb out (at) 900-1000'/minute.) Happily, Bryce is on a plateau and there was plenty of time to gain altitude before the canyons.

2. Land only at airstrips in Monument Valley. There are a number of high plateaus that are tempting, but Monument Valley is Indian land, not federal park or monument, and the tribe doesn't want you landing off-field. 

3. Both Bryce and Monument Valley are spectacular flying!  



4. When are you planning on going? I was always there the third week in May, and by then it was already hot...once almost suffocatingly so. There can also be a lot of wind, so flying in the early morning and evenings worked best. Of my three flights to Bryce and Monument Valley, only once was it calm enough to fly during the day.  I remember thinking that I'd never  want to fly there between June and September, due to even greater heat and what that would do to density altitude.

Have a great trip.

Arty

 

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/oshkosh/

"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller

"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

        From: miyer2u <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, May 7, 2012 7:09  PM

 Subject: Kolb-List: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

  

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "miyer2u" <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com (miyer2u(at)yahoo.com)>



John/Team,

I am trailering my Kolb to fly these sites and wanted some knowhow!

Since many of you have flown these sites, I wanted to understand any caution that comes to your minds. 

Bryce is located at almost 7600 feet so did you find a great difference with a firestar climbing out with a Rotax 503? Is it underpowered for take off in such high elevations with high density altitude?

Also at monument valley, any cautions and wanted to know the service ceiling for a Firestar-2.



Thanks in advance!

Mahesh

FS-2





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372602#372602

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?          -Matt ==============



 

 

  



 [quote][b]

miyer2u

Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Oregon

Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

Hello Arty,

Thanks so much for your input. I was always wondering as to how a 503 would perform in such light conditions. I will surely look out for the right weather conditions.



Hope you are having some good flights in your Titan!. 



Mahesh

russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

On May 10, 2012, at 10:25 PM, miyer2u wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hello Arty,

 Thanks so much for your input. I was always wondering as to how a 503 would perform in such light conditions. I will surely look out for the right weather conditions.

 

 Hope you are having some good flights in your Titan!. 

 

 Mahesh

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372795#372795

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:03 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

"miyer2u" wrote: <<  I was always wondering as to how a 503 would perform in such light conditions. I will surely look out for the right weather conditions. Mahesh >>

 

Hello, Mahesh –

 

Regarding your question about how a Firestar might perform at high density altitudes: Here is one observation for you.

 

This morning I flew my Mark-3 in formation with a Kolb Firefly (447 powered), and I was amazed at how Homer’s tiniest Kolb was having no problem climbing out, and keeping up with me.  Our field elevation is 6500 feet, and at one point we climbed all the way to 9000 feet to get over a mountain range here in central New Mexico.  Admittedly, I was throttled back a bit (4200 rpm), but he was right on my wingtip the whole flight.  Our indicated airspeeds matched exactly (53 mph), and his 447 was running at 5400.

 

After the flight, he said his Firefly still flew crisp and spritely, not sluggish at all.  Although he admitted his takeoff roll was a bit longer than usual compared to lower elevations, but not a whole lot.

 

In a post earlier this week, Arty Trost shared with us that taking off from the Monument Valley airstip took most of the runway.  What Arty left out was, she was talking about the PAVED part of the runway!  Back before 2008, the first several hundred feet of that airstrip was paved, and the other few thousand feet was dirt.  It was always a fun challenge to see if we could get into the air before our tires hit the dirt part!  (Am I right, Arty?)

 

For what it’s worth …

 

Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul, “Magic Bike”

 

 

 

 [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

To expand on these answers, I flew my Firestar II there with a 503 in 2007 the last of May. Temps were about 80 degrees. I am used to flying at 4000 feet altitude, and I noticed no real problem with the plane. It will of course reduce your performance a bit depending on the density altitude at the time, but both the plane and the engine will handle it. 

 Have Fun

Larry



On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/ENS <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

"miyer2u" wrote: <<  I was always wondering as to how a 503 would perform in such light conditions. I will surely look out for the right weather conditions. Mahesh >> 

 

Hello, Mahesh –

 

Regarding your question about how a Firestar might perform at high density altitudes: Here is one observation for you.

  

This morning I flew my Mark-3 in formation with a Kolb Firefly (447 powered), and I was amazed at how Homer’s tiniest Kolb was having no problem climbing out, and keeping up with me.  Our field elevation is 6500 feet, and at one point we climbed all the way to 9000 feet to get over a mountain range here in central New Mexico.  Admittedly, I was throttled back a bit (4200 rpm), but he was right on my wingtip the whole flight.  Our indicated airspeeds matched exactly (53 mph), and his 447 was running at 5400. 

 

After the flight, he said his Firefly still flew crisp and spritely, not sluggish at all.  Although he admitted his takeoff roll was a bit longer than usual compared to lower elevations, but not a whole lot. 

 

In a post earlier this week, Arty Trost shared with us that taking off from the Monument Valley airstip took most of the runway.  What Arty left out was, she was talking about the PAVED part of the runway!  Back before 2008, the first several hundred feet of that airstrip was paved, and the other few thousand feet was dirt.  It was always a fun challenge to see if we could get into the air before our tires hit the dirt part!  (Am I right, Arty?) 

 

For what it’s worth …

 

Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul, “Magic Bike”

 

 

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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miyer2u

Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Oregon

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

Thank you Dennis and Larry for your inputs!

Appreciate it!. I always had an element of trust on the Kolb, but at times I have seen the 503 to be underpowered. Just today I was flying in an canyon and I had a sink of almost 1000 feet, even with 6200 RPM I was just managing to stay level. I have noticed that in critical situations, climbing out in turbulent air with a 503 is difficult. I just carry more altitude in situations like these!



With Thinner air in Bryce, I was wondering as to how it behaved and your answers really helped!



Mahesh

FS-2

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

Just where are you flying out of now, and what is the altitude there?  My Firestar is probably heavier than yours, but I really never flew it at less than 61 or 6200 unless I was landing. You do have it propped to run WOT to 6700 RPM's I assume. The only time that I ever had any problem with mine was between Wendover Utah and Elko Neveda. I wasted too much time flying low approaching the Mountains and thought for a while that I was going to have to land on the road and taxi over the pass.

 Larry



On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 5:18 PM, miyer2u <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com (miyer2u(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "miyer2u" <miyer2u(at)yahoo.com (miyer2u(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Thank you Dennis and Larry for your inputs!

 Appreciate it!. I always had an element of trust on the Kolb, but at times I have seen the 503 to be underpowered. Just today I was flying in an canyon and I had a sink of almost 1000 feet, even with 6200 RPM I was just managing to stay level. I have noticed that in critical situations, climbing out in turbulent air with a 503 is difficult. I just carry more altitude in situations like these!

  

 With Thinner air in Bryce, I was wondering as to how it behaved and your answers really helped!

 

 Mahesh

 FS-2

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=372922#372922

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

 



  [quote][b]

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do not archive

miyer2u

Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Oregon

Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

Hi Larry,

The field elevation is 4600 feet from where I fly out and my prop is maxed out at 6500RPM. I have always had consistent performance with the FS-2. I cruise at around 5800 RPM with a speed of 65 MPH. In winters I have gone as low as 5400 RPM maintaining the same speed.



So when I hit 6300 RPM and I am not able to climb out in rough air, I just feel that its underpowered.May be its just me ). I never get to Max RPM of 6500 unless I am taking off... I would also admit that its the density altitude that is also making all the difference.



Larry, I want to fly the Alvord desert with you and Arty someday!  



Thanks.

Mahesh

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:14 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

I had a sink of almost 1000 feet, even with 6200 RPM I was just managing to 

stay level. >>



Hi

Thats not an underpowered engine. All engine can sometimes be overwhelmed. 

If you get in a load of sink, downwind of a mountain crest or in a cold 

corner of a canyon no engine power will save you. Learn something about the 

air and dont go there. Fly where the sun has warmed the rockface and get 

close. You will go up. As the warmed air is going up the cold air  in the 

shadow will be going down to replace it. Whatever your normal climb rate 

down flowing air can go faster in some circumstances.

Read Saint Exupery. `Sand and Stars` I think. He was flying the mails and 

got in the downdraft from a mountain range. There is a great description of 

him flying at full power and being pushed steadily towards the sea below.



Use the air, don`t fight it. You can`t win.



Cheers



Pat

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

I agree 100% with Pat - a sink doesn't mean you're underpowered.  I remember flying up the Columbia River Gorge (between Oregon and Washington) and suddenly I started going down...down...down, sinking like the proverbial rock. Going to full power (with a 503) didn't help, just slowed the descent slightly. I radio'd to my buddy who was up ahead that my engine seemed suddenly not to have enough power, and he cheerfully radio'd back "That's a hell of a downdraft back there, isn't it? You'll be through it soon."  And I was - since I had plenty of altitude.

Something that might be helpful. When I'm flying in high elevation, high density altitude country - hot days in Utah, Nevada, etc.  I look for cloud shadows, and hopscotch to fly in the shadows. I always get some lift in  the shadows. Of course, there's not always clouds - or they may be far apart - but they never fail to provide lift. That seems to be opposite of what Pat writes below about cold air in the shadows - all I know is that it's never failed me.

Arty Trost 

 Sandy, Oregon

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/oshkosh/



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller

"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

        From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:13 AM

 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

  

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>



I had a sink of almost 1000 feet, even with 6200 RPM I was just managing to stay level. >>



Hi

Thats not an underpowered engine. All engine can sometimes be overwhelmed. If you get in a load of sink, downwind of a mountain crest or in a cold corner of a canyon no engine power will save you. Learn something about the air and dont go there. Fly where the sun has warmed the rockface and get close. You will go up. As the warmed air is going up the cold air  in the shadow will be going down to replace it. Whatever your normal climb rate down flowing air can go faster in some circumstances.

Read Saint Exupery. `Sand and Stars` I think. He was flying the mails and got in the downdraft from a mountain range. There is a great description of him flying at full power and being  pushed steadily towards the sea below.



Use the air, don`t fight it.om/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigato   -->                     &nbsp========================



 

 

  



 [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: Flying Bryce canyon and Monument Valley - Knowhow?

I look for cloud shadows, and hopscotch to fly in the  shadows.>>

  

 Hi Arty,

 It sounds as though by accident you have found  thermals.Very useful.

 Clouds, particularly the  fat fluffy Cu. are  formed by  warm air going up. Thermals. Get into one and up you go. Learn  to circle in one and you can switch your engine off. Ask a glider pilot how and  fit a variometer. The cloud in fact is the warm air turning into water  vapour. At this point there is a major energy release and if you are close to  the bottom of the cloud you can get sucked up into it. This is good or bad  depending upon how good you are on instruments in rough conditions. When all the  warm air has been drawn up into the cloud it stops working. If the cloud tends  to go on building, stay away. You can get sucked up and spat out with no wings  if you get in the wrong one.Gliders have speed limiting brakes. We do not. If  you lose it in a glider you just pull the speed brakes and wait until you fall  out of the cloud and then sort it out and close the brakes.

 In the UK we are (or were in my day) allowed to fly  in cloud although it was not allowed  in Europe. We just went into cloud  and radioed our height and approx. position for the information of  others..

 There was one occasion when a pilot radioed  ` I am at 5000 ft in cloud over Salisbury. This message was followed by  several more all saying `So am I`  and a number of gliders coming out of  the sides of the cloud at high speed.

 By definition half the clouds in the sky have  stopped working. You can tell this by the colour. When a thermal begins to turn  into a cloud  it looks hazy and a milky colour. When it stops it turns a  grey colour and begins to dissipate. It is said that this can be detected  more easily with  sunglasses although I could never tell the  difference.Unless you are near cloudbase it is probably easier to identify a  thermal source by looking at the ground.

 Thermals form where the earth warms at different  rates. The house roofs of a town with grassland  around. The change from  grass to plough. A concrete runway on an airfield or a blacktop road through  open country. Thermals lean downwind so if you can identify a source and  fly upwind towards it or better still find the cloud which it is  feeding   and position yourself  accordingly you will go up.Birds are a good indicator. They don`t practice turns  for fun. If they are circling it is because there is a thermal. Join them. There  may be enough lift to help you as well.Sometimes if you are lucky when you  circle you might be joined by a soaring bird such as a hawk or a buzzard or a  kite which will sit as your wingman just off the wingtip..

 What goes up must come down and your thermal will  be surrounded by descending air. As you approach the thermal your rate of  descent will go up so fly through that area quickly. Then the air will feel sort  of bubbly. Like flying in Champagne. With luck one wing will lift. Slow up and  turn towards it and up you go. Maybe. Otherwise search around . It is more art  that science

  and it sounds as if you have cracked it by  good observation and canny flying.

  

 All the best

  

 Pat..

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