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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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 Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
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dlm34077(at)q.com
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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IIRC; the transport aircraft use thrust levers to flight idle, gear down, pitch down 30 and bank 30-45. I don't think the flaps are lowered to prevent possible structural overload since the wing is weaker with the flaps extended. IIRC this was used for medical emergencies as well as depressurization events depending on location of course. My point is that flaps should remain up. Power, pitch and bank should be used to control descent. Prop should be full forward (fine pitch) to act as a big brake.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Perry
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 4:23 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: BFR - Things to try
On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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I did make some turns to align for a field that I had targeted (very close to being right under me). You are correct, it really comes down faster. This is NOT the best glide (Flaps Up).
Something to definitely put in the bag of tricks for flying (Not just the -10)
Jim C - Do Not Archive
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
|
| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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We tried the prop both full forward and full out. No noticeable difference.
Without the flaps I don't think one would get the decent rate needed. I will try it with flaps up and compare the descent rates. My CFI was certain to use full flaps. Apparently this was a procedure used on other GA aircraft he had flown.
Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:55 PM, DLM <dlm34077(at)q.com (dlm34077(at)q.com)> wrote:
[quote] IIRC; the transport aircraft use thrust levers to flight idle, gear down, pitch down 30 and bank 30-45. I don't think the flaps are lowered to prevent possible structural overload since the wing is weaker with the flaps extended. IIRC this was used for medical emergencies as well as depressurization events depending on location of course. My point is that flaps should remain up. Power, pitch and bank should be used to control descent. Prop should be full forward (fine pitch) to act as a big brake.
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008 |
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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Yeah. Like I've said, I've never done it in a -10. But I'm hoping some folks can comment on their experience doing it in various configurations.
What concerns be a bit is the "Departure from Controlled Flight" discussion a few years ago related to slipping with full flaps.
Phil
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] I did make some turns to align for a field that I had targeted (very close to being right under me). You are correct, it really comes down faster. This is NOT the best glide (Flaps Up).
Something to definitely put in the bag of tricks for flying (Not just the -10)
Jim C - Do Not Archive
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
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| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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Now that I think of it, it was Reflex and Slips... One or the other, but the tail didn't want to stay put. I'll have to go search the archives.
Phil
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Yeah. Like I've said, I've never done it in a -10. But I'm hoping some folks can comment on their experience doing it in various configurations.
What concerns be a bit is the "Departure from Controlled Flight" discussion a few years ago related to slipping with full flaps.
Phil
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did make some turns to align for a field that I had targeted (very close to being right under me). You are correct, it really comes down faster. This is NOT the best glide (Flaps Up).
Something to definitely put in the bag of tricks for flying (Not just the -10)
Jim C - Do Not Archive
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[b]
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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I made no attempt at slipping. Always used coordinated flight. I remembered the "Departure from Controlled Flight" discussions.
Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Yeah. Like I've said, I've never done it in a -10. But I'm hoping some folks can comment on their experience doing it in various configurations.
What concerns be a bit is the "Departure from Controlled Flight" discussion a few years ago related to slipping with full flaps.
Phil
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did make some turns to align for a field that I had targeted (very close to being right under me). You are correct, it really comes down faster. This is NOT the best glide (Flaps Up).
Something to definitely put in the bag of tricks for flying (Not just the -10)
Jim C - Do Not Archive
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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Jim,
Don't you have the Safety Trim in your -10? I think Tim has a write up on this and I am sure I am telling you something you already know but the Safety Trim prevents the trim from running more than 3 seconds in a row. Additionally with the ST you have a switch that will both shut off the trim and also make the trim work in reverse in case you lose one trim direction you can reverse the trim to get back to a more natural configuration. I also have a switch on my panel that completely disengages the co-pilots stick function. I leave the co-pilots stick inactive in all but a few scenarios where I can confirm the person in the co-pilots seat knows how the stick grip functions and has a need to fly the plane.
[Description: J:\Users\Robin_2\Pictures\Airplanes\RV-8A\RV-8A Build Photos\Safety Trim Switch.jpg]
http://www.tcwtech.com/Safety-Trim-Page.htm
Great tip on the rapid decent
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 5:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: BFR - Things to try
We tried the prop both full forward and full out. No noticeable difference
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Dick Sipp
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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For runaway nose up trim or un-commanded pitch up, rolling into a step bank may provide some extra time to react and figure out what happened before the airplane stalls . As the airspeed bleeds off in the turn control forces should diminish.
Dick Sipp
425 Hours
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: BFR - Things to try
I did make some turns to align for a field that I had targeted (very close to being right under me). You are correct, it really comes down faster. This is NOT the best glide (Flaps Up).
Something to definitely put in the bag of tricks for flying (Not just the -10)
Jim C - Do Not Archive
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Phil Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] On your decent, try the same setup you described and put the airplane into a 45-60 degree bank to fly a spiral to the ground. When you put it in the bank, you are dropping the vertical component of lift significantly. Now you're coming down under control and much faster than 3000 fpm.
.
I haven't tried it in the -10, so you might tip-toe into it. But the more vertical lift you can shed the faster you're going to get down.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I did my third BFR in the -10 this week. After 360 hours there are still things to be learned. During our ground training work, we discussed runaway trim and max decent procedures.
Runaway Trim - I don't have anything that can control my trim unit other than the DPDT switch on the panel. KISS - it's a good thing. But we did decide to run the trim to the limits during flight to see how fast does it happen and can the pilot override it. The -10 has a LOT of up elevator trim authority. Unless you slow WAY down you can't override it. It takes a while to travel to full UP but I still think it would take a pilot by surprise if it happened without warning. We never really got to full up trim. Just way too much pressure needed to keep the nose down. Down trim is manageable but still will take a pilot by surprise. Having a means to turn off power to the trim would most likely not happen fast enough. Your first focus would be on keeping the nose of the airplane where it needs to be, then trying to figure out what happened. By then the trim would be all the way to the limit. It was great to try that during the BFR with an experienced pilot / CFI. Made me really glad I don't have a trim controller. in short, it's not pretty at all.
Maximum Decent - First, you really need to set this up with some extra AGL altitude. The scenario was this. You have an emergency and need to get to the ground (Anywhere, and NOW). What is the fastest decent? Power back and slow down to max flap speed and deploy full flaps. Push the nose over to get to top of white arc (86 Knots). VSI was pegged at 3K. I meant to get the data from the EFIS but have not done that yet. You are coming down fast with full control. YES the ground is in FULL view. You really have to push the nose over to get to the 86 knots with full flaps. Get down to your landing area and ease up on the forward stick to set up your landing. Try this. Any passengers need to know what you are going to do before you do it. Not uncomfortable, but you do come down FAST and with full control for any turns or positioning to the landing area.
Jim C
N312F - 370 hours
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: BFR - Things to try |
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I have pull-able CB's, side by side and well marked, for the trim and autopilot. The CB's are over my right knee, easy to reach with my right hand.
I also did not put a trim switch on the right stick. Flying from the right I use a panel mounted switch. I also use the Trio autopilot's trim function even when hand flying, for fine adjustments. The down side is that if I have a trim runaway I have to pull both CB's (which is why they are placed side by side) and then figure out where the problem is. I wrote a POH and these breakers are prominently mentioned.
Years ago, the "power off steep spiral descent to a landing" was a required commercial pilot maneuver. It was certainly more useful than lazy eights!
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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Robin,
No I don't have the safety trim. I will check that out.
Thanks, Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim,
Don't you have the Safety Trim in your -10? I think Tim has a write up on this and I am sure I am telling you something you already know but the Safety Trim prevents the trim from running more than 3 seconds in a row. Additionally with the ST you have a switch that will both shut off the trim and also make the trim work in reverse in case you lose one trim direction you can reverse the trim to get back to a more natural configuration. I also have a switch on my panel that completely disengages the co-pilots stick function. I leave the co-pilots stick inactive in all but a few scenarios where I can confirm the person in the co-pilots seat knows how the stick grip functions and has a need to fly the plane.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01CD3A9E.2A0AB140[/img]
http://www.tcwtech.com/Safety-Trim-Page.htm
Great tip on the rapid decent
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 5:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: BFR - Things to try
We tried the prop both full forward and full out. No noticeable difference.
Without the flaps I don't think one would get the decent rate needed. I will try it with flaps up and compare the descent rates. My CFI was certain to use full flaps. Apparently this was a procedure used on other GA aircraft he had flown.
Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:55 PM, DLM <dlm34077(at)q.com (dlm34077(at)q.com)> wrote:
IIRC; the transport aircraft use thrust levers to flight idle, gear down, pitch down 30 and bank 30-45. I don't think the flaps are lowered to prevent possible structural overload since the wing is weaker with the flaps extended. IIRC this was used for medical emergencies as well as depressurization events depending on location of course. My point is that flaps should remain up. Power, pitch and bank should be used to control descent. Prop should be full forward (fine pitch) to act as a big brake.
============== V10-List Email Forum - > :p> /o:p> tor?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ============== bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - :p> tp://forums.matronics.com ============== bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - e> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==============
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 3:35 am Post subject: BFR - Things to try |
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Robin, I had managed to miss the Safety Trim notes. That will be ordered soon!
Tim, Great write up.
Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim,
Don't you have the Safety Trim in your -10? I think Tim has a write up on this and I am sure I am telling you something you already know but the Safety Trim prevents the trim from running more than 3 seconds in a row. Additionally with the ST you have a switch that will both shut off the trim and also make the trim work in reverse in case you lose one trim direction you can reverse the trim to get back to a more natural configuration. I also have a switch on my panel that completely disengages the co-pilots stick function. I leave the co-pilots stick inactive in all but a few scenarios where I can confirm the person in the co-pilots seat knows how the stick grip functions and has a need to fly the plane.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01CD3A9E.2A0AB140[/img]
http://www.tcwtech.com/Safety-Trim-Page.htm
Great tip on the rapid decent
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Combs
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 5:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: BFR - Things to try
We tried the prop both full forward and full out. No noticeable difference.
Without the flaps I don't think one would get the decent rate needed. I will try it with flaps up and compare the descent rates. My CFI was certain to use full flaps. Apparently this was a procedure used on other GA aircraft he had flown.
Jim C
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:55 PM, DLM <dlm34077(at)q.com (dlm34077(at)q.com)> wrote:
IIRC; the transport aircraft use thrust levers to flight idle, gear down, pitch down 30 and bank 30-45. I don't think the flaps are lowered to prevent possible structural overload since the wing is weaker with the flaps extended. IIRC this was used for medical emergencies as well as depressurization events depending on location of course. My point is that flaps should remain up. Power, pitch and bank should be used to control descent. Prop should be full forward (fine pitch) to act as a big brake.
============== V10-List Email Forum - > :p> /o:p> tor?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List ============== bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - :p> tp://forums.matronics.com ============== bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - e> bsp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==============
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