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Improve fit of upper cowl

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bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

I warned you that I had lots of questions.  My next one relates to the alignment of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen.  On my Tiger there are gaps where the upper cowl is between about 3/8 inch and 5/8 inch higher than the nosebowl (at the front of the cowl) and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen (at the rear of the cowl).  The gaps are at the bend where the upper cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.



You can see what I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching them).  The right front is ok.  But the left front and both rear joints show the gaps.  It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far enough to allow it to fit tightly enough.  As you can see, the cowling is cracking at the bends.



What do I need to do to eliminate the gaps and get the upper cowl to align better with the nosebowl and fuselage?  By the way, the lower cowl seems to fit and align well with the fuselage.

Right Front Cowling.jpg

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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

you'll have to send pictures.  It's impossible for the upper cowling to be off 5/8 inches and still close.

        From: bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 7:17 PM

 Subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

I warned you that I had lots of questions.  My next one relates to the alignment of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen.  On my Tiger there are gaps where the upper cowl is between about 3/8 inch and 5/8 inch higher than the nosebowl (at the front of the cowl) and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen (at the rear of the cowl).  The gaps are at the bend where the upper cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.

You can see what I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching them).  The right front is ok.  But the left front and both rear joints show the gaps.  It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far enough to allow it to fit tightly enough.  As you can  see, the cowling is cracking at the bends.

What do I need to do to eliminate the gaps and get the upper cowl to align better with the nosebowl and fuselage?  By the way, the lower cowl seems to fit and align well with the fuselage.

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373968#373968

Attachments: 

http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_front_cowling_657.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_rear_cowling_193.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_rear_cowling_493.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_front_cowling_980.jpg

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -<   --> 

 [quote][b]

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

Gary, I did post photos.  They show up in the webmail listing so I'm not sure why you didn't get them.



Try this link:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=90423



 	  teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  you'll have to send pictures.  It's impossible for the upper cowling to be off 5/8 inches and still close.

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

I see the pics. Was it always like that?  The only real solution is to buy a Jaguar cowling. 



Gary

Sent from my iPad



On May 25, 2012, at 7:17 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I warned you that I had lots of questions.  My next one relates to the alignment of the upper cowl to the nose bowl and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen.  On my Tiger there are gaps where the upper cowl is between about 3/8 inch and 5/8 inch higher than the nosebowl (at the front of the cowl) and the fuselage at the base of the windscreen (at the rear of the cowl).  The gaps are at the bend where the upper cowl curves down from the horizontal to the vertical.

 

 You can see what I mean in the attached photos (if I've been successful in attaching them).  The right front is ok.  But the left front and both rear joints show the gaps.  It's as if the bottom edge of the upper cowl can't go down far enough to allow it to fit tightly enough.  As you can see, the cowling is cracking at the bends.

 

 What do I need to do to eliminate the gaps and get the upper cowl to align better with the nosebowl and fuselage?  By the way, the lower cowl seems to fit and align well with the fuselage.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373968#373968

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_front_cowling_657.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_rear_cowling_193.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_rear_cowling_493.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_front_cowling_980.jpg

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

I got them. I see what your talking about. It looks like the cowling is damaged . . . Doubler may have broken at the corners allowing the cowling to deform. 

Gary

Sent from my iPad

On May 25, 2012, at 8:40 PM, "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Gary, I did post photos.  They show up in the webmail listing so I'm not sure why you didn't get them.

 Try this link:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=90423

 teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:

> you'll have to send pictures.  It's impossible for the upper cowling to be off 5/8 inches and still close.

> 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373976#373976

gketell

Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

You can definitely see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high point".  Can you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl?

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  gketell wrote: 	
		  You can definitely see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high point".  Can you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl? 	




Here is a pretty full set of photos both inside and outside.  Two more, from the front looking at the nosebowl thru the propellor were poorly focused and I have to retake them.



Do these indicate anything.  I do see the delamination inside at the corners.  Seems to me more like the result of the mis-fit than the cause.  The upper cowl halves just seem to long, or the lower cowl seems set to high (although it lines up pretty well with the fuselage).



Barry S(2)

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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

Barry, if you had wanted a near perfect plane, you missed your opportunity.  The original cowling is built to the nearest .3 inches.  Yours looks fine to me.

Pic 150:  Looks normal to me.

Pic 101:  Looks normal to me.

Pic 159:  Other than the hinge . . .  I mount the hinge like this left to right: hinge, mounting bracket, hinge, mounting bracket, hinge.

                 I open the hinge and have it straddle the two mounting brackets.

Pic 142:  see comment for 159

Pic 135:  You can crowd the hinge aft and redrill.  It will pull the the nose bowl aft however.

Pic 156:  No comment

Pic  233:  Seem is typical.

Pic 904/252:  The missing sections of the doubler are so the cowling can bend in the corner.

Pic 186:  Looks like the doubler is debonding

Rest of pics:  Pretty typical of all the planes I see.

Barry, go find some other Cheetahs/Tigers.  You'll see they are all the same.  

The only fix is a new cowling.

Gary

        From: bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:54 PM

 Subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

  

 

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

gketell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   You can definitely see cracks in the cowl at the top of the curve of each "high point".  Can you take/post pictures of the inside of the cowl?


	




Here is a pretty full set of photos both inside and outside.  Two more, from the front looking at the nosebowl thru the propellor were poorly focused and I have to retake them.



Do these indicate anything.  I do see the delamination inside at the corners.  Seems to me more like the result of the mis-fit than the cause.  The upper cowl halves just seem to long, or the lower cowl seems set to high (although it lines up pretty well with the fuselage).



Barry S(2)





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374030#374030





Attachments:  



http://forums.matronics.com//files/right_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_150.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_right_side_vertical_cowl_seam_101.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_internal_right_159.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_internal_left_142.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_external_from_right_135.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_of_center_hinge_external_from_left_156.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_left_side_vertical_cowl_seam_233.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_right_cowl_closeup_904.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_right_cowl_closeup_2_252.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/rear_inside_left_rear_closeup_137.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_117.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_right_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and _nosebowl_205.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_internal_right_198.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_internal_left_635.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_external_from_right_676.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_of_center_hinge_external_from_left_142.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_left_side_vertical_cowl_seam_and_nosebowl_356.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_right_cowl_211.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_right_cowl_closeup_186.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/front_inside_left_cowl_closeup_206.jpw.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.manbsp;                 -Matt Dralle,



 

 

  

 [quote][b]

gketell

Joined: 22 May 2012
Posts: 10

Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

The "Rear inside right" pictures shows obvious signs of debonding of the doubler.  The "Rear inside left" pictures show hints that the doubler might be debonding (cracking paint around the doubler).



The other thing I see is that the two halves of the split nose bowl are touching.  Since that was cut apart with a rotary saw there should be a "saw blade width" gap.  By opening that up you will raise the top of the nose bowl which will close a little of the gap you see in "Left side horizontal cowl seam.jpg".  



I'll leave it to the experts whether the debonding is repairable and whether that would make things fit better.



GK

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Barry, if you had wanted a near perfect plane, you missed your opportunity.  The original cowling is built to the nearest .3 inches.  Yours looks fine to me.



Barry, go find some other Cheetahs/Tigers.  You'll see they are all the same.  



	




I think you and I agree...that there is nothing unusual enough about the fit and setup of the nose of my plane to explain the large gaps at the bends of the upper cowl where it meets the nosebowl and the front fuselage.



If you're saying that 3/8" to 1/2" gaps at those spots are also normal, that isn't what I think I've seen on other planes.  But l'll look again more closely around the airport.  I think we have at least 5 other AA5's.  BTW, I actually measured the gaps yesterday instead of estimating.  That's why the 2nd number changed.



Or am I misinterpreting the situation about those gaps and you consider them to be normal, too?



BTW, it sunk in that there was no such thing as a perfect 35 year old airplane somewhere between the 250th and 275th time you told me that <G>



As always, thanks for all that you contribute here,



Barry S(2)

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

Barry, 

The gaps in the corners, where is doesn't fit well, is not normal.  But, a lot of planes do that due to misuse and abuse of the cowling.  Some are worse than others.  There really aren't a lot of options to fix that.  I have seen people put cam-locks in the corners.  Seen them across the front.  If the latching mechanism weren't so screwy, I'd make a fiberglass replacement for them.  

Send a pic of you measuring the gap.

Gary

        From: bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 6:22 AM

 Subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

  

 

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Barry, if you had wanted a near perfect plane, you missed your opportunity.  The original cowling is built to the nearest .3 inches.  Yours looks fine to me.

 

 Barry, go find some other Cheetahs/Tigers.  You'll see they are all the same.  

 

 


	




I think you and I agree...that there is nothing unusual enough about the fit and setup of the nose of my plane to explain the large gaps at the bends of the upper cowl where it meets the nosebowl and the front fuselage.



If you're saying that 3/8" to 1/2" gaps at those spots are also normal, that isn't what I think I've seen on other planes.  But l'll look again more closely around the  airport.  I think we have at least 5 other AA5's.  BTW, I actually measured the gaps yesterday instead of estimating.  That's why the 2nd number changed.



Or am I misinterpreting the situation about those gaps and you consider them to be normal, too?



BTW, it sunk in that there was no such thing as a perfect 35 year old airplane somewhere between the 250th and 275th time you told me that 



As always, thanks for all that you contribute here,



Barry S(2)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37rch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, gt;

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  



Send a pic of you measuring the gap.



	




At first I thought you wanted a photo of my smiling face while I was measuring the gap...but reconsidered after I looked in the mirror.<G>



So tried to take photos, of the gap being measured.  But camera did not resolve the fine graduations on the scale that I have.



I think anything more is moot, though.  If there is no easy correction, then I will leave well enough alone.  The plane is a joy to fly, gaps and all.  I can always tell people that I am working on a Cooling STC!



Thanks again, Gary

Barry

Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:12 am Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

At the risk of being way off in the weeds...

Isn't it possible to adjust the height of the cowl latches?  Has that been tried to pull the top cowl down more?



Dan Schmitz

Tiger 4518B

KASH



[quote] --

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com wrote: 	
		  At the risk of being way off in the weeds...

Isn't it possible to adjust the height of the cowl latches?  Has that been tried to pull the top cowl down more?



Dan Schmitz

Tiger 4518B

KASH



	




Unless I misunderstand what you are suggesting, Dan, I don't think so.  Not unless we trim a fair amount from the lower edge of each upper cowl half.  If you look up a few posts at the photo titled:



left_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_117.jpg



you can see that the horizontal seam between the upper and lower cowls is tight.  So I think any downward adjustment of the latch position on the lower cowl (and I don't know if it is adjustable or not) to pull the upper cowl down and close the gaps will cause the upper cowl to overlap what should be an exposed portion of the lower cowl.  It would, I think, trade one misfit for another.



On the bright side, I have great low cylinder temperatures.  So, I could either attribute that to the superior job Gary did for the prior owner installing the rebuilt engine and building new baffles, OR I could attribute them to enhanced airflow due to the gaps at the corner of the cowling.  Since I would rather not compliment Gary, I will point to the cowling gaps<G>.

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

Very Good Barry...

You are 100% correct, your upper to lower cowl gap is correct and tightening the latch would do damage not improve what I have seen in the pictures.

Gee... I hope Gary takes what you said as a complement - He does not read very well and jumps to conclusions.  I took it as a complement to his workmanship  

Off to the AP to work on my lame bird.

BIRD!  Did some one say BIRD.  Keep an eye open during pre-flight.  There are hundredths of birds nesting out there... I pulled three nests from planes so far.

 Did you put foam, in your wing tips, where the counter-balance weights exit?

Barry

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 10:32 AM, bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

 Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com wrote:

 > At the risk of being way off in the weeds...

 > Isn't it possible to adjust the height of the cowl latches?  Has that been tried to pull the top cowl down more?

 >

 > Dan Schmitz

 > Tiger 4518B

 > KASH

 >

 >

 Unless I misunderstand what you are suggesting, Dan, I don't think so.  Not unless we trim a fair amount from the lower edge of each upper cowl half.  If you look up a few posts at the photo titled:

 left_side_horizontal_cowl_seam_117.jpg

 you can see that the horizontal seam between the upper and lower cowls is tight.  So I think any downward adjustment of the latch position on the lower cowl (and I don't know if it is adjustable or not) to pull the upper cowl down and close the gaps will cause the upper cowl to overlap what should be an exposed portion of the lower cowl.  It would, I think, trade one misfit for another.

 On the bright side, I have great low cylinder temperatures.  So, I could either attribute that to the superior job Gary did for the prior owner installing the rebuilt engine and building new baffles, OR I could attribute them to enhanced airflow due to the gaps at the corner of the cowling.  Since I would rather not compliment Gary, I will point to the cowling gaps.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374172#374172

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Dan.Schmitz(at)calix.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:40 am Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

You understood correctly.  I just didn't look closely enough at the pictures.



Dan



[quote] --

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

Hi Barry,

Can you push the corner down?  Is there a gap at the mating surface to the lower cowling?  Odds are, there isn't much you can do.

Gary

        From: bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:03 AM

 Subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Send a pic of you measuring the gap.

At first I thought you wanted a photo of my smiling face while I was measuring the gap...but reconsidered after I looked in the mirror.

So tried to take photos, of the gap being measured.  But camera did not resolve the fine graduations on the scale that I have.

I think anything more is moot, though.  If there is no easy correction, then I will leave well enough alone.  The plane is a joy to fly, gaps and all.  I can always tell people that I am working on a Cooling STC!

Thanks again, Gary

Barry

Read this topic online  here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374155#374155http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?T               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -<                    &nbsp========================

 [quote][b]

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Hi Barry,



Can you push the corner down?  Is there a gap at the mating surface to the lower cowling?  Odds are, there isn't much you can do.



Gary

	




I've tried to push it tighter originally, but the bottom of the upper cowl sits tightly and evenly on the mating surface of the lower cowl.  There's no room for meaningful further closure.  I show photos of both the left and right sides in the big block of images I attached a few notes above.  You can see that the seam is tight.



If this is the worst issue I ever have with 74429, I will be a lucky pilot!



Thanks again for everyone's input and help.



Barry S(2)

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: Improve fit of upper cowl

Barry,

A few years ago, I had a Cheetah owner come in who wanted a new upper right half of the cowling to fix a similar problem.  About $1500 later, after buying the right upper cowling half ($850), stripping-filling-and-painting the new one ($300), and removing the old and installing the new ($300), he had a new (read: different) upper right half.  It looked a little better, flew the same, and I made money.

I don't think it improved it $1500 worth.

Gary

        From:  bkspero <bkspero(at)gmail.com>

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:37 PM

 Subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

  

 

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "bkspero" <bkspero(at)gmail.com (bkspero(at)gmail.com)>

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Barry,

 

 Can you push the corner down?  Is there a gap at the mating surface to the lower cowling?  Odds are, there isn't much you can do.

 

 Gary

 


	




I've tried to push it tighter originally, but the bottom of the upper cowl sits tightly and evenly on the mating surface of the lower cowl.  There's no room for meaningful further closure.  I show photos of both the left and right sides in the big block of images I attached a few notes above.  You can see that the seam is tight.



If this is the worst issue I ever have with 74429, I will be a lucky pilot!



Thanks again for everyone's input and help.



Barry  S(2)





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=374221#374221

bkspero

Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 17

Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Improve fit of upper cowl

 	  teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Barry,

A few years ago, I had a Cheetah owner come in who wanted a new upper right half of the cowling to fix a similar problem.  About $1500 later, after buying the right upper cowling half ($850), stripping-filling-and-painting the new one ($300), and removing the old and installing the new ($300), he had a new (read: different) upper right half.  It looked a little better, flew the same, and I made money.

I don't think it improved it $1500 worth.

Gary



 	




If I'm lucky enough to still be flying when its time for a new paint job, maybe I'll think about it then.  But for now, they are firmly in the "leave well enough alone" category.

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