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TigerAirshows
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 15
Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:43 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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| Quote: | Gentlemen,
I have read in past posts about the over voltage scenario and feel I am dealing with the same problem.
I have two Yak 55's one with the original system and one with a B &C. I'm having problems with the original system and generator.
Problem: 30v at flight RPM. Trips off (AKKyM) circuit breaker removing all power from the system as designed.
Batteries show good on load test
Voltage when (AKKyM) is out, still registers 30v at flight RPM and decreases to 15V at idle verifying batteries are off line.
Question: How to adjust voltage regulator on original style Yak 55M if this is the likely problem?
|
Sincerely,
Mark Sorenson
678-463-5944
www.tigerairshows.com
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_________________
Mark Sorenson-
www.tigerairshows.com |
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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On the end of the carbon pile voltage regulator is a rheostat with a flathead screw in the center. Mark Bitterlich will have to chime in on the direction to rotate it if that is the same system that you have in the 55. In the 50 the regulator is on the upper left side of the firewall above the main air bottle when standing up in the hell hole facing forward.
doc
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:38 AM, Mark Sorenson <captainsorenson(at)hotmail.com (captainsorenson(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
| Quote: | Gentlemen,
I have read in past posts about the over voltage scenario and feel I am dealing with the same problem.
I have two Yak 55's one with the original system and one with a B &C. I'm having problems with the original system and generator.
Problem: 30v at flight RPM. Trips off (AKKyM) circuit breaker removing all power from the system as designed.
Batteries show good on load test
Voltage when (AKKyM) is out, still registers 30v at flight RPM and decreases to 15V at idle verifying batteries are off line.
Question: How to adjust voltage regulator on original style Yak 55M if this is the likely problem?
|
Sincerely,
Mark Sorenson
678-463-5944
www.tigerairshows.com
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[b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Your posting is probably the problem, but first find the voltage regulator, once you do, (do you need help with that?) look at it very closely, or ... better still... take it out of the mount and examine the mount and the regulator. There is a known problem with a wire under the bottom of the regulator that shorts to the mounting rack itself. Basically, just take it out and look VERY carefully for shorts before you adjust anything.
If it all looks perfectly OK, then gently tap the black things that look like heat sinks. Take a screwdriver handle and just tap back and forth on the black fin looking deals.
Try starting the engine and checking the voltage with the voltage regulator REMOVED! If you still have voltage output from the generator that goes up and down with engine RPM, then you have a short somewhere to the FIELD winding of the generator. Most likely place to look is under the generator wiring cover. Check to make sure all connections are tight and nothing is shorting to anything else. Especially the field wire to the "+" wire (they are marked, the field is in the center).
If you have no voltage with the voltage regulator removed, then put it back in and test it again. If it is still going up to 30 volts, then adjust the regulator as Doc suggested, but understand that small movements make BIG changes!
On the YAK-52, there is a "fine voltage adjust rheostat" that is mounted in the cockpit and can make small adjustments to the voltage regulator itself. I do not know if the 55 has this or not. The 50 definitely does NOT.
If you cannot adjust the voltage regulator, and it still is reading 30 volts or higher, you need to make absolutely sure your wiring is fine (ESPECIALLY AT THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR MOUNT!) and then find a new voltage regulator, or ... beat on it harder at mentioned above and try it again.
That covers everything I can think of. You've done well to get as far as you have.
One thing really bothers me though.... you said you made a test with the AKKyM over-voltage protection box (it is silver in color) REMOVED!
If you remove that box, you should NOT get ANY voltage out of the generator! The field winding is in SERIES with that breaker and unless you jumpered some pins (you did not say you did that, so I do not know) you should not have gotten ANYTHING. As in no voltage out of the generator, and your cockpit meter should have read battery voltage only.
This implies that there is a short from generator OUTPUT to the FIELD winding of the generator somewhere. I.E.: If you remove all wiring to the generator, and connect the + output to the center FIELD winding terminal, the generator will do EXACTLY as you say it is doing now.
If you removed the silver over-voltage unit and STILL got generator output, then I believe it is very likely that you have a short somewhere.
Mark
--
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Hi Mark,
Don't have -55M electrical schematics (if you do then please post) but Russian -55M pilot's manual references same components as those found in other Yaks ... so will ASSUME we're dealing with essentially the same beast here.
On that basis ... the AKKyM is likely to be a switch (up battery, middle off, down ext power?) not a breaker. Please confirm, if not then post an image of your panel showing its location. Or are you referring to the OV protection box "A3N-A2" reset button?
The problem you're describing could be explained by the Contactor having failed with its contacts welded together, so although various safety devices may be kicking in the battery & generator remain connected regardless.
This may explain why, with the "breaker" out, the voltage still varies with rpm ... the voltmeter is on the battery bus, if it really was disconnected from the generator it should not fluctuate.
Hence at low rpm the generator becomes a motor drawing a very large current dragging your battery volts down to 15V (should be ~24V if offline).
Simple way to check this (engine OFF) is just turn the Battery master ON & if the Generator Offline warning light remains OFF and/or the ammeter shows a large drain current, then we've ID'd the problem (or at least one of them).
However this does not necessarily explain why your voltage regulation is not limiting the generator output to 27~28V. I suspect there's another problem here which could range from a bad connection or blown fuse (why?) through carbon pile regulator / stabilising transformer / OV control failure.
If I'm right then at best this is going to need the DMR-200D (aptly named Complex Control device that contains the Contactor) overhauled / replaced which may not be feasible on either count.
At worst ANO hard to repair / replace component has also failed ... so ultimately your best bet may be to get this one modified to a B&C fit too.
Anyway if you could try out the above check we can see if I'm even in the right ball park on this one.
Cheers, Rob R
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Typical ... after two days looks like Mark Bitterlich & I have overlapped postings by 10 minutes!
My posting addressed to 'Mark' refers to Mark S, not Mark B.
Cheers, Rob R
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k7wx
Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Mark,
As an alternative, it is possible to replace the generator on the M-14P with a lightweight 35 amp or 50 amp alternator.
http://www.bandc.biz/alternatorform14p35ampshomebuilt.aspx
http://www.bandc.biz/alternatorform14p50ampshomebuilt.aspx
The companion solid sate voltage regulator weighs only 9 ozs.
http://www.bandc.biz/alternatorcontrollerregulator28vhomebuilt1.aspx
These were designed for the M-14P and are what I am using. This doesn't fix your immediate problem, but is another approach using current technology.
Warren Hill
N464TW
On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:38 AM, Mark Sorenson wrote:
[quote]
| Quote: | Gentlemen,
I have read in past posts about the over voltage scenario and feel I am dealing with the same problem.
I have two Yak 55's one with the original system and one with a B &C. I'm having problems with the original system and generator.
Problem: 30v at flight RPM. Trips off (AKKyM) circuit breaker removing all power from the system as designed.
Batteries show good on load test
Voltage when (AKKyM) is out, still registers 30v at flight RPM and decreases to 15V at idle verifying batteries are off line.
Question: How to adjust voltage regulator on original style Yak 55M if this is the likely problem?
|
Sincerely,
Mark Sorenson
678-463-5944
www.tigerairshows.com
| Quote: |
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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[b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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And sometimes it is just easier to take out the generator with the carbon-pile voltage regulator (a carbon pile? Really? Is this 1940?) and replace it with a nice, light, simple alternator.
Just sayin'.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:58 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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You betcha!
I am very impressed with the B&C SK35 with the LS1A regulator. I have
installed that model in a few aircraft, the latest being a Sukhoi 26.
If anyone needs help doing that, email me. Oh, yes B&C also makes a
higher current alternator if you want that. I believe it is the SK50.
Cost is about $1000 plus or minus.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:03 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Rob, I think his voltage measurements were at the generator and not the
main bus. Don't know that for sure, but I think so.
This would make 15 volts at idle pretty normal. (The DMR-200 would open
and you would be reading straight generator voltage)
If the main contactor was indeed fused closed, when the engine stopped,
it should blow the main battery fuse, because at that point the "motor"
would not be spinning and would represent a dead short to ground, or
darn close to it.
Agreed?
Mark
p.s. No I do not have 55 schematics, just a few pictures. However, all
of these are usually identical... mostly. Well 95% anyway. 
--
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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The line drawing on the 50amp unit said is only produced 50 amps at
6000RPM ... how often does an M14 spin at 6000RPM?
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/sk50_outline.pdf
Is that a consideration?
On 6/5/2012 9:54 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
[quote]
You betcha!
I am very impressed with the B&C SK35 with the LS1A regulator. I have
installed that model in a few aircraft, the latest being a Sukhoi 26.
If anyone needs help doing that, email me. Oh, yes B&C also makes a
higher current alternator if you want that. I believe it is the SK50.
Cost is about $1000 plus or minus.
Mark
--
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Generator is geared to spin faster than the engine. Manual shows 4000 to
9000 rpm for generator.
Gill
--
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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The generator/alternator turns 2.5 times faster than the engine crankshaft.
--
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
Rob, I think his voltage measurements were at the generator and not the
main bus. Don't know that for sure, but I think so.
This would make 15 volts at idle pretty normal. (The DMR-200 would open
and you would be reading straight generator voltage)
If the main contactor was indeed fused closed, when the engine stopped,
it should blow the main battery fuse, because at that point the "motor"
would not be spinning and would represent a dead short to ground, or
darn close to it.
Agreed?
|
That is certainly what I would expect if the cutout relay (what I think you are calling the main contactor) were to weld closed. It is intended to open when current starts to flow from bus to generator armature rather than the other way around. OTOH, the overcurrent relay would probably prevent serious damage.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:34 AM, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)>
The line drawing on the 50amp unit said is only produced 50 amps at 6000RPM ... how often does an M14 spin at 6000RPM?
|
Shaft RPM on the generator is not usually crank RPM. The generator drive is usually geared up so that there is sufficient RPM at the generator to provide full output at crank RPMs below crank RPM redline.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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javiercarrascob
Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 62
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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I think they meant the crank sht in the alternator spins 6000 rpms not the prop
--- On Tue, 6/5/12, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net> wrote:
[quote]
From: William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net>
Subject: Re: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage?
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:34 PM
--> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)>
The line drawing on the 50amp unit said is only produced 50 amps at
6000RPM ... how often does an M14 spin at 6000RPM?
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/sk50_outline.pdf
Is that a consideration?
On 6/5/2012 9:54 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
You betcha!
I am very impressed with the B&C SK35 with the LS1A regulator. I have
installed that model in a few aircraft, the latest being a Sukhoi 26.
If anyone needs help doing that, email me. Oh, yes B&C also makes a
higher current alternator if you want that. I believe it is the SK50.
Cost is about $1000 plus or minus.
Mark
--
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:12 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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I think you're forgetting about the gearing.
From the M14 maintenance manual - Note the rotation speed.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 6/5/2012 12:34 PM, William Halverson wrote:
[quote]
The line drawing on the 50amp unit said is only produced 50 amps at
6000RPM ... how often does an M14 spin at 6000RPM?
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/sk50_outline.pdf
Is that a consideration?
On 6/5/2012 9:54 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14
64E wrote:
>
> Point, MALS-14 64E"<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
>
> You betcha!
>
> I am very impressed with the B&C SK35 with the LS1A regulator. I have
> installed that model in a few aircraft, the latest being a Sukhoi 26.
> If anyone needs help doing that, email me. Oh, yes B&C also makes a
> higher current alternator if you want that. I believe it is the SK50.
>
> Cost is about $1000 plus or minus.
>
> Mark
> --
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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OK thanks!
On 6/5/2012 11:01 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote: [quote]
On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:34 AM, William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: William Halverson <william(at)netpros.net (william(at)netpros.net)>
The line drawing on the 50amp unit said is only produced 50 amps at 6000RPM ... how often does an M14 spin at 6000RPM?
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Shaft RPM on the generator is not usually crank RPM. The generator drive is usually geared up so that there is sufficient RPM at the generator to provide full output at crank RPMs below crank RPM redline.
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Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[b]
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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OK Thanks!
On 6/5/2012 10:59 AM, Gill Gutierrez wrote:
[quote]
Generator is geared to spin faster than the engine. Manual shows 4000 to
9000 rpm for generator.
Gill
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Rob Rowe
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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| Quote: |
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:03 pm
...
If the main contactor was indeed fused closed, when the engine stopped,
it should blow the main battery fuse, because at that point the "motor"
would not be spinning and would represent a dead short to ground, or
darn close to it.
...
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Fair point Mark, but with the differential shunt relay in series (as Brian mentioned) plus battery internal resistance, generator windings etc only needs to be collectively c.1ohm and the current gets limited to 20+Amps, maybe not enough to take the main fuse out.
With the differential shunt (reverse current) relay needing 10-25 Amps (from spec) to operate anyway then a corroded / loose connection could readily add a few ohms and prevent the contactor release from even being triggered.
Have just noted the -55M doesn't have an ammeter as standard fit, so scratch that check option.
Anyway let's see what Mark S come back with, if nothing else it will at least help eliminate this from the potential fault list 
Cheers, Rob R
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:17 am Post subject: Yak 55M Voltage regulator Overvoltage? |
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Rob,
While I didn't say it out-loud, I already know what happens when you do
what I was talking about earlier. I am pulling the actual terminal
marking from memory, but on the DMR-200 I think it is the terminal
marked with "A" that connects directly to the MAIN CONTACTOR coil
itself. If you put 28 VDC on that terminal, the MAIN CONTACTOR relay
will close and complete the circuit between generator output and main
aircraft 28 VDC bus.
While I do not recommend this to anyone else, I have connected that
terminal to a switch inside of my aircraft, so that I can close the MAIN
CONTACTOR relay manually if I desire to. It is wired to the old oil
dilution switch, which is of course spring loaded "OFF". You can
probably figure out why I have done this.
So toss theory out the window at this point. If you close the main
contactor relay on the DMR-200 with the engine not running, the main
battery fuse will blow. Or I should say: "At least mine did". [wink
to you too!]
Mark
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