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3300 Jab engine

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p.whetham(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:03 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

I am in the process of selling current aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder assist at Shelbyville.

I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying around Australia, US and Canada.

My future flying will be restricted to Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+

With regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's.

I am forever googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the  CHT problem.

For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100 hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently safety problems.

All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to have no answer.

My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc. 

The tried and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine.

My concern in dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine running where by I don't have to overly worry about

CHT and EGT even though they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day.

I have studied the Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver HP.

In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product..

They have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc, throw them away.

You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a spare.

They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45 amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing Carby.

My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of them.

To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on long trips whilst circumnavigating Australia.

Paul

landonp(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Paul

I have a Lightning with a water cooled 3300 Jabiru (it is the one on the 

Rotec site).

My concerns were similar to yourself, and hence I went with LCHs.(my engine 

is a early manufactured unit (solid lifters), known for CHT issues)

I have only low initial ground running Hrs on engine and is not far off 

flying.

Research with other operators of LCH Jabiru engines justified fitment.

There is one Jabiru owner (LCH) now approaching 80 hrs PLUS.

An Inspection (stripdown for curiosity on how LCHs were performing on this 

eng) showed no wear or heat issues, and all settings and torques were as 

assembled.(not touched or adjusted)

Benefits of LCH are numerous, and appear as per advertised. You can hold WOT 

for as long as required with no CHT issues.

There is a HP increase and Noise decrease. I have also fitted the electronic 

Rotec Coil ignition / pickup (one side plug).This gives instant starting.

The TBI injector I have, but will utilise the Bing during testing phase.

I am relating what I have heard from those operating with LCHs and only 

negative was associated to initial development on Hydraulic lifter engine 

version (this has now been sorted at Rotec).All indications are showing a 

long life (eng reaching TBO), which is what I am aiming for.



Regards

Bruce

---

flylightningls1(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

All,

  

 As an OWNER, OPERATOR and DEALER of the Lightning LS-1, now referred to as the LS-1, a factory built aircraft of the same manufacturer as the Lighting KITS, I can say without reservation that in the desert environment I HAVE NO DIFFICULTIES that any of the home builts/kits have with the Jabiru. This includes many demo rides with individuals of large weight (read (at) MGTOW) and climbs demonstrated at 1200 fpm in the desert heat (100 F+) and (very recently in Palm Springs, CA and Phoenix, AZ) after much on the ground demo and review where you would normally be generating a lot of heat there are none of the problems that are described by the home builders. 

   

 As a note on CHTs, all are comfortably below 300 F during normal operations and only 1 crosses the 300 F mark under the above mentioned conditions.

  

 Also when changing my oil (self) and my hangar neighbors visit they typically have commented on the placement and ducting of the oil cooler and the cylinder cooling ducting under the cowling. The comments are: Can I take a picture of that installation and WOW!!! that is a clean installation. Two of my hangar neighbors have copied the oil cooler installation with great results, but all comments are tremendously positive. 

   

 In summation, if there is anybody out there having difficulties it lies with the installation by the EXPERIMENTAL or AMATEUR BUILDER (read EAB or E-LSA) not with the factory built aircraft (read LS-1, S-LSA) 

   

 If you would like a demo in a factory built LS-1 and see for yourself the performance and operating parameters of a professionally/factory built aircraft please call me 909.362.7294 or email (at) FLYLIGHTNINGLS1(at)gmail.com (FLYLIGHTNINGLS1(at)gmail.com) or contact the factory at www.flylightning.net  

   

 If you want to tinker and be a builder I'll support you as best I can, but the problems that you encounter will be of your own doing. 

  

 The LS-1 is factory built and professionally produced S-LSA has none of the home built difficulties that I hear about from amateur builders.

  

 Sincerely,

  

 Jay Sullivan 

 Arion Aircraft Dealer, LS-1

 Sullivan Equipment Leasing

 909.362.7294

 FlyLightningLS1(at)gmail.com (FlyLightningLS1(at)gmail.com)

 



 

 On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Paul Whetham <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Lightning-List message posted by: Paul Whetham <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com)>

 

I am in the process of selling current aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder assist at Shelbyville.

I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying around Australia, US and Canada.

 My future flying will be restricted to Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+

With regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's.

 I am forever googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the  CHT problem.

For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100 hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently safety problems.

 All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to have no answer.

 My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc.

The tried and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine.

 My concern in dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine running where by I don't have to overly worry about

 CHT and EGT even though they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day.

I have studied the Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver HP.

In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product..

 They have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc, throw them away.

 You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a spare.

 They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45 amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing Carby.

 My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of them.

To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on long trips whilst circumnavigating Australia.

 st Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



	




 

-- 

 Jay B. Sullivan  

 EAA# 1021168

 Sullivan Equipment Leasing, LLC

 Hangar #23 (KREI)

 Redlands, CA

  

 909.362.7294



  [quote][b]

mark(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

I would like to weigh in on this for a moment. I am the Production Manager

for Arion Aircraft and Jabiru USA and I have well over 200 hours in over a

dozen different customer and factory built Lightning's and a handful of

Jabiru J-230's. I also have a Jabiru 3300 in my Zenith 601XL. I can honestly

state that I have not experienced an overheating issue with these aircraft

and do not see any reason to install another system that will cost several

more thousand dollars, add more weight and add another point of failure.



We have hot days in Tennessee as well with temperatures in the mid 90's (35

C). In my operation of these aircraft "IF" I see a CHT in the 350 degree

range I simply lower the nose and reduce my rate of climb a bit (from say

1000 fpm to 800 fpm in the Lightning). Please note that the Jabiru manual

allows operation at a temperature of 392 (200 C) for up to five minutes and

the maximum cruise CHT allowed is 356 (180 C). Why do I lower the nose in

the 360 degree range with the Jabiru? I guess it's from old habits with the

old solid lifter engine that had a max CHT of 352. This is also the same way

I used to fly my Cherokee with a Lycoming O-320/160 and how I was taught

flying C-172, if the CHT got warm on climb out then I lowered the nose. In

cruise the highest CHT is usually in the very low 300's such as 305 - 310.



I stand by the statement that if the Jabiru engine is installed in a

properly designed firewall forward package (such as the Lightning) you will

not see an overheating problem thus negating the need for an expensive

solution looking for a problem.



How many Jabiru engines with Rotech LCH have reached 1000 hours to date? How

many have reached 2000 hours? How can a company make a claim of their

product ensuring the engine reaches TBO when they haven't even seen it for

themselves! After 12 years of selling engines in the US, Jabiru USA is just

now starting to see some 1000 hour top overhauls. It's taken 12 years to get

to this point. It takes 125 days running an engine 8 hours a day to reach

1000 hours. Has Rotech done this? Also, I am certain I can pull apart a

Jabiru engine in a Lightning that is "approaching 80 hours" and find no wear

as well.



I'm sure the Rotech LCH does reduce the CHT as they claim but the big

question is "is it necessary". In the Lightning, it is an emphatic NO.



I have close to a dozen Lightning owners in Florida and a few in the Arizona

area, both of which can get pretty hot. I hope they will add their candid

comments about their real world experiences to this discussion.



Best regards,



Mark



Mark Stauffer

Production Manager

Arion Aircraft, LLC

Jabiru USA, LLC

2842 Highway 231 North

Shelbyville, TN 37160

(931) 680-1781

mark(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:43 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

I would like to also add one more experience from Sun n Fun 2010. The Monday after the show found the airport IFR until around 1100. When the beacon went out and the field went VFR it was a mad dash for everyone to depart. I was flying a customer’s Lightning (which I believe now resides in CA) and we had a 45 MINUTE TAXI before we could take off. This is not an exaggeration of any sort. The CHT’s were never an issue even on a low to mid 80 degree Florida day. I watched a Midget Mustang with some sort of Lycoming or Continental pull over and shut down and have no idea who had to give up behind me. But all of our Lightnings and Jabirus made it out of there with no issues.

 

Bottom line, a 45 minute taxi on a warm mid 80 degree day was not an issue.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

Mark Stauffer

Production Manager

Arion Aircraft, LLC

2842 Highway 231 North

Shelbyville, TN 37160

(931) 680-1781

 

 

 

  [quote][b]

tejasflyer

Joined: 23 Jul 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Bryan Texas

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:53 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

I have the 3300 installed in an experimental Jabiru J450, built to plans. In 400 hours, I have not had any cooling issues at all. I live in Texas, where 95-100 degree days are common in the summer. I often fly with 3 passengers, close to gross as well.  I tend to agree that this is a problem for installations that don't follow the factory instructions. I'm currently building a lightning as well, and I do not expect to have issues firewall forward, but I plan to install per factory examples. 



Ken Bailey



On Jun 6, 2012, at 12:29 PM, "Mark Stauffer" <mark(at)flylightning.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I would like to weigh in on this for a moment. I am the Production Manager

 for Arion Aircraft and Jabiru USA and I have well over 200 hours in over a

 dozen different customer and factory built Lightning's and a handful of

 Jabiru J-230's. I also have a Jabiru 3300 in my Zenith 601XL. I can honestly

 state that I have not experienced an overheating issue with these aircraft

 and do not see any reason to install another system that will cost several

 more thousand dollars, add more weight and add another point of failure.

 

 We have hot days in Tennessee as well with temperatures in the mid 90's (35

 C). In my operation of these aircraft "IF" I see a CHT in the 350 degree

 range I simply lower the nose and reduce my rate of climb a bit (from say

 1000 fpm to 800 fpm in the Lightning). Please note that the Jabiru manual

 allows operation at a temperature of 392 (200 C) for up to five minutes and

 the maximum cruise CHT allowed is 356 (180 C). Why do I lower the nose in

 the 360 degree range with the Jabiru? I guess it's from old habits with the

 old solid lifter engine that had a max CHT of 352. This is also the same way

 I used to fly my Cherokee with a Lycoming O-320/160 and how I was taught

 flying C-172, if the CHT got warm on climb out then I lowered the nose. In

 cruise the highest CHT is usually in the very low 300's such as 305 - 310.

 

 I stand by the statement that if the Jabiru engine is installed in a

 properly designed firewall forward package (such as the Lightning) you will

 not see an overheating problem thus negating the need for an expensive

 solution looking for a problem.

 

 How many Jabiru engines with Rotech LCH have reached 1000 hours to date? How

 many have reached 2000 hours? How can a company make a claim of their

 product ensuring the engine reaches TBO when they haven't even seen it for

 themselves! After 12 years of selling engines in the US, Jabiru USA is just

 now starting to see some 1000 hour top overhauls. It's taken 12 years to get

 to this point. It takes 125 days running an engine 8 hours a day to reach

 1000 hours. Has Rotech done this? Also, I am certain I can pull apart a

 Jabiru engine in a Lightning that is "approaching 80 hours" and find no wear

 as well.

 

 I'm sure the Rotech LCH does reduce the CHT as they claim but the big

 question is "is it necessary". In the Lightning, it is an emphatic NO.

 

 I have close to a dozen Lightning owners in Florida and a few in the Arizona

 area, both of which can get pretty hot. I hope they will add their candid

 comments about their real world experiences to this discussion.

 

 Best regards,

 

 Mark

 

 Mark Stauffer

 Production Manager

 Arion Aircraft, LLC

 Jabiru USA, LLC

 2842 Highway 231 North

 Shelbyville, TN 37160

 (931) 680-1781

_________________
KB

IFLYSMODEL(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hey Paul: I have limited knowledge on the ROTEC water cooled heads.  However, I do have some experience with the Lightning aircraft and Arion  aircraft Inc. You have made the right decision about which airplane to build and  where to build it. Those guys know what they are doing. I would also recommend  having Nick fly the first flights and offer/make any corrections that might  possibly be needed.

     I live in central Florida and the temperatures  routinely exceed 30 degrees C on most summer days. I would much rather have an  air conditioned cockpit than liquid cooled cylinder heads. I only have about  350+ hours on my Lightning, but have never had a problem with high cylinder head  temps. I have my CHT probes placed in the center hole between the spark plugs  (which others have reported to read about 60-70 degrees higher than the spark  plug location) and I have never seen CHT's above 330 degrees. The Arion outfit  has the cooling issues nailed.

 Lynn Nelsen

  

  In a message dated 6/6/2012 7:06:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  p.whetham(at)bigpond.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Lightning-List message posted by: Paul Whetham    <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com>



I am in the process of selling current    aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder    assist at Shelbyville.

I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying    around Australia, US and Canada.

My future flying will be restricted to    Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+

With    regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of    factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's.

I am forever    googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN    expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the  CHT    problem.

For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100    hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently    safety problems.

All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to    modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy    due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to    have no answer.

My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have    circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc. 

The tried    and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of    days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine.

My concern in    dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece    of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine    running where by I don't have to overly worry about

CHT and EGT even though    they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day.

I have studied the    Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver    HP.

In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done    a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an    alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product..

They    have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the    current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal    operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc,    throw them away.

You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc    all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr    TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a    spare.

They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45    amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well    and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing    Carby.

My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear    everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of    them.

To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars    initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on    long trips whilst circumnavigating  ========================

	


 [quote][b]

p.whetham(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Bruce,	Thanks for your info. I'm a way off doing anything yet as I still have to sell current aircraft.

I really like what Rotec have developed and can't understand the complacency or lack of enthusiasm that pilots are showing.

Most of the feedback has been along the lines that the product is now close to perfect so why mess with it??

I had various emails from Lightning owners in Florida where OAT are 30/40c and they state that they have no problems.

I guess in the end I'll just buy one and rectify problems as they arise.

If you can, please keep me informed as to how yours is progressing.

Regards,

Paul



On 06/06/2012, at 11:29 PM, Bruce & Colleen Keen wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Hi Paul

 I have a Lightning with a water cooled 3300 Jabiru (it is the one on the Rotec site).

 My concerns were similar to yourself, and hence I went with LCHs.(my engine is a early manufactured unit (solid lifters), known for CHT issues)

 I have only low initial ground running Hrs on engine and is not far off flying.

 Research with other operators of LCH Jabiru engines justified fitment.

 There is one Jabiru owner (LCH) now approaching 80 hrs PLUS.

 An Inspection (stripdown for curiosity on how LCHs were performing on this eng) showed no wear or heat issues, and all settings and torques were as assembled.(not touched or adjusted)

 Benefits of LCH are numerous, and appear as per advertised. You can hold WOT for as long as required with no CHT issues.

 There is a HP increase and Noise decrease. I have also fitted the electronic Rotec Coil ignition / pickup (one side plug).This gives instant starting.

 The TBI injector I have, but will utilise the Bing during testing phase.

 I am relating what I have heard from those operating with LCHs and only negative was associated to initial development on Hydraulic lifter engine version (this has now been sorted at Rotec).All indications are showing a long life (eng reaching TBO), which is what I am aiming for.

 

 Regards

 Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ---

p.whetham(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Jay,	Thanks for your valued comments. It's great to see a forum such as this be so helpful and positive.It certainly gives you a consensus. Most of the responses I got were along the lines that you expressed so it appears that 

I wont have a problem if I stick to what the factory does in Shelbyville. I have to sell current aircraft first so will be a while.

Once again thanks for your input.

Regards,

Paul

 

On 07/06/2012, at 3:08 AM, Jay Sullivan wrote:

[quote]All,

  

 As an OWNER, OPERATOR and DEALER of the Lightning LS-1, now referred to as the LS-1, a factory built aircraft of the same manufacturer as the Lighting KITS, I can say without reservation that in the desert environment I HAVE NO DIFFICULTIES that any of the home builts/kits have with the Jabiru. This includes many demo rides with individuals of large weight (read (at) MGTOW) and climbs demonstrated at 1200 fpm in the desert heat (100 F+) and (very recently in Palm Springs, CA and Phoenix, AZ) after much on the ground demo and review where you would normally be generating a lot of heat there are none of the problems that are described by the home builders. 

   

 As a note on CHTs, all are comfortably below 300 F during normal operations and only 1 crosses the 300 F mark under the above mentioned conditions.

  

 Also when changing my oil (self) and my hangar neighbors visit they typically have commented on the placement and ducting of the oil cooler and the cylinder cooling ducting under the cowling. The comments are: Can I take a picture of that installation and WOW!!! that is a clean installation. Two of my hangar neighbors have copied the oil cooler installation with great results, but all comments are tremendously positive. 

   

 In summation, if there is anybody out there having difficulties it lies with the installation by the EXPERIMENTAL or AMATEUR BUILDER (read EAB or E-LSA) not with the factory built aircraft (read LS-1, S-LSA) 

   

 If you would like a demo in a factory built LS-1 and see for yourself the performance and operating parameters of a professionally/factory built aircraft please call me 909.362.7294 or email (at) FLYLIGHTNINGLS1(at)gmail.com (FLYLIGHTNINGLS1(at)gmail.com) or contact the factory at www.flylightning.net  

   

 If you want to tinker and be a builder I'll support you as best I can, but the problems that you encounter will be of your own doing. 

  

 The LS-1 is factory built and professionally produced S-LSA has none of the home built difficulties that I hear about from amateur builders.

  

 Sincerely,

  

 Jay Sullivan 

 Arion Aircraft Dealer, LS-1

 Sullivan Equipment Leasing

 909.362.7294

 FlyLightningLS1(at)gmail.com (FlyLightningLS1(at)gmail.com)

 



 

 On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 2:37 AM, Paul Whetham <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Lightning-List message posted by: Paul Whetham <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com)>

 

I am in the process of selling current aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder assist at Shelbyville.

I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying around Australia, US and Canada.

 My future flying will be restricted to Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+

With regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's.

 I am forever googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the  CHT problem.

For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100 hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently safety problems.

 All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to have no answer.

 My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc.

The tried and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine.

 My concern in dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine running where by I don't have to overly worry about

 CHT and EGT even though they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day.

I have studied the Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver HP.

In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product..

 They have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc, throw them away.

 You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a spare.

 They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45 amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing Carby.

 My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of them.

To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on long trips whilst circumnavigating Australia.

 st Un/Subscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



	




 

-- 

 Jay B. Sullivan  

 EAA# 1021168

 Sullivan Equipment Leasing, LLC

 Hangar #23 (KREI)

 Redlands, CA

  

 909.362.7294



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

p.whetham(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Ken,	Thanks for your input and your comments are those expressed by most who replied.

I think I will follow your lead and do the same.

Regards,

Paul

On 07/06/2012, at 3:50 AM, Ken Bailey wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have the 3300 installed in an experimental Jabiru J450, built to plans. In 400 hours, I have not had any cooling issues at all. I live in Texas, where 95-100 degree days are common in the summer. I often fly with 3 passengers, close to gross as well.  I tend to agree that this is a problem for installations that don't follow the factory instructions. I'm currently building a lightning as well, and I do not expect to have issues firewall forward, but I plan to install per factory examples. 

 

 Ken Bailey

 

 On Jun 6, 2012, at 12:29 PM, "Mark Stauffer" <mark(at)flylightning.net> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> I would like to weigh in on this for a moment. I am the Production Manager

> for Arion Aircraft and Jabiru USA and I have well over 200 hours in over a

> dozen different customer and factory built Lightning's and a handful of

> Jabiru J-230's. I also have a Jabiru 3300 in my Zenith 601XL. I can honestly

> state that I have not experienced an overheating issue with these aircraft

> and do not see any reason to install another system that will cost several

> more thousand dollars, add more weight and add another point of failure.

> 

> We have hot days in Tennessee as well with temperatures in the mid 90's (35

> C). In my operation of these aircraft "IF" I see a CHT in the 350 degree

> range I simply lower the nose and reduce my rate of climb a bit (from say

> 1000 fpm to 800 fpm in the Lightning). Please note that the Jabiru manual

> allows operation at a temperature of 392 (200 C) for up to five minutes and

> the maximum cruise CHT allowed is 356 (180 C). Why do I lower the nose in

> the 360 degree range with the Jabiru? I guess it's from old habits with the

> old solid lifter engine that had a max CHT of 352. This is also the same way

> I used to fly my Cherokee with a Lycoming O-320/160 and how I was taught

> flying C-172, if the CHT got warm on climb out then I lowered the nose. In

> cruise the highest CHT is usually in the very low 300's such as 305 - 310.

> 

> I stand by the statement that if the Jabiru engine is installed in a

> properly designed firewall forward package (such as the Lightning) you will

> not see an overheating problem thus negating the need for an expensive

> solution looking for a problem.

> 

> How many Jabiru engines with Rotech LCH have reached 1000 hours to date? How

> many have reached 2000 hours? How can a company make a claim of their

> product ensuring the engine reaches TBO when they haven't even seen it for

> themselves! After 12 years of selling engines in the US, Jabiru USA is just

> now starting to see some 1000 hour top overhauls. It's taken 12 years to get

> to this point. It takes 125 days running an engine 8 hours a day to reach

> 1000 hours. Has Rotech done this? Also, I am certain I can pull apart a

> Jabiru engine in a Lightning that is "approaching 80 hours" and find no wear

> as well.

> 

> I'm sure the Rotech LCH does reduce the CHT as they claim but the big

> question is "is it necessary". In the Lightning, it is an emphatic NO.

> 

> I have close to a dozen Lightning owners in Florida and a few in the Arizona

> area, both of which can get pretty hot. I hope they will add their candid

> comments about their real world experiences to this discussion.

> 

> Best regards,

> 

> Mark

> 

> Mark Stauffer

> Production Manager

> Arion Aircraft, LLC

> Jabiru USA, LLC

> 2842 Highway 231 North

> Shelbyville, TN 37160

> (931) 680-1781

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

p.whetham(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Lynn,		Thanks for you input, it follows what most others have said. When the time comes I'll do what ever the factory suggests.I have seen your plane in the newsletters, very nice, can't wait to be in the same situation.

Having trouble selling current plane in Australia, everything sells at a price so may have to keep lowering the price.

Regards,

Paul

On 07/06/2012, at 9:14 AM, IFLYSMODEL(at)AOL.COM (IFLYSMODEL(at)AOL.COM) wrote:

[quote]     Hey Paul: I have limited knowledge on the ROTEC water cooled heads.  However, I do have some experience with the Lightning aircraft and Arion  aircraft Inc. You have made the right decision about which airplane to build and  where to build it. Those guys know what they are doing. I would also recommend  having Nick fly the first flights and offer/make any corrections that might  possibly be needed.

     I live in central Florida and the temperatures  routinely exceed 30 degrees C on most summer days. I would much rather have an  air conditioned cockpit than liquid cooled cylinder heads. I only have about  350+ hours on my Lightning, but have never had a problem with high cylinder head  temps. I have my CHT probes placed in the center hole between the spark plugs  (which others have reported to read about 60-70 degrees higher than the spark  plug location) and I have never seen CHT's above 330 degrees. The Arion outfit  has the cooling issues nailed.

 Lynn Nelsen

  

  In a message dated 6/6/2012 7:06:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Lightning-List message posted by: Paul Whetham    <p.whetham(at)bigpond.com (p.whetham(at)bigpond.com)>



I am in the process of selling current    aircraft and purchasing a Lightning which I would do through the builder    assist at Shelbyville.

I am retired and aged 66, have done extensive flying    around Australia, US and Canada.

My future flying will be restricted to    Australia and I love to fly in the north where ambient temps are 30+

With    regard to the Jab 3300 engine which Arion use I am concerned about the lack of    factory doctrine or detail to control the CHT and EGT's.

I am forever    googling finding blogs whereby pilots are spending their time and I feel IN    expertise in trying to redirect air flow to minimise the  CHT    problem.

For the inexperienced, this means that they may get a few 100    hours of satisfactory flying before having major engine and consequently    safety problems.

All these backyard mechanics are spending time trying to    modify cowling etc with each one getting different results - some may be happy    due to cooler geographical location but the ones in hotter climates seem to    have no answer.

My current aircraft is a 1979 Arrow and I have    circumnavigated Australia four times plus desert crossings etc. 

The tried    and proven Lycoming air ducting has never let me down even on the hottest of    days and no matter what demands I have put on the engine.

My concern in    dropping down to LSA and the Jab3300 engine is that I would like to have piece    of mind when I take off (no matter what the day) is that I have an engine    running where by I don't have to overly worry about

CHT and EGT even though    they would be monitored and the ambient temp of the day.

I have studied the    Rotax and whilst water cooled am not happy with the high RPM to deliver    HP.

In Australia there is a company called ROTEC that appears to have done    a lot to improve the Jab engine and I don't know why Jabiru has not formed an    alliance to combine the technology and end up with a great product..

They    have manufactured Water cooled heads that are inter-changeable with the    current Jab head. All the CHT,EGT and Oil Temps are reduced to a normal    operating situation without the need to muck around with air cowlings etc,    throw them away.

You don't have to worry about retorking heads, valves etc    all operate in normal temps and your engine I feel will achieve the 2000 hr    TBO. I realise that I am reliant on a water pump and to that end would carry a    spare.

They also offer an interchangeable Alternator that will produce 45    amps at any speed and an Electronic ignition system which all read very well    and a TBI fuel injection system which replaces the troublesome Bing    Carby.

My apologies for this long blog but I would really love to hear    everyones thoughts re the above, especially from those who have tried any of    them.

To my way of thinking, I would rather spend the extra dollars    initially (retired) to have piece of mind that my wife and I will be safe on    long trips whilst circumnavigating  ========================



	


  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

landonp(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: 3300 Jab engine

Hi Mark

When question was asked initially, I related back what I know about LCH and 

My decision to use.

I point out additional information :

My jabiru 3300 Engine is New (never used) but an original Built unit (No 

117).

Back when it was manufactured (jabiru early days) there were Head and CHT 

issues Well known in Australia.

I have seen the results of Overheated cylinder Heads on these Early engines 

in early Jabiru's.

Following Model upgrades, have improved Head Cooling, and as you point out 

Not Now an issue, If Installation Design is correct.

Is it Necessary ? in my case Yes. To purchase a complete set of  Later model 

Heads (more cooling fins etc, etc) and later model associated parts

along with Jabiru directives, would have been Expensive. I chose to go with 

Rotec LCHs.

As I believe the later, Lightning Engine mounts, were moved forward to 

improve CofG, my Earlier built aircraft should benefit with  additional LCH 

fluid weight.(2lb).Another reason for My choice.

I  have collegues who fly  considerable amounts of Hrs behind all models of 

Jabiru Engines and now review Current Models as sound/ reliable Power to 

Weight units when used as per Jabiru directions.



On another Note with Jabiru 3300 Engines here, is the fitting of three blade 

adjustable Petroni Propellors.A considerable performance increase

is being seen (takeoff and Cruise) along with smoother eng operation.

Regards

Bruce

---

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