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Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

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europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hello again,



after eight months of modifying my classic I am back in the air again.

My flight inspector said after he test flew the aircraft: "funny aircraft but be careful with your payload, it is absolutely not overpowered!"

Well, I thought that impression you get when you are used to turboprops, like he is.

But today it was me who made the same painful experience.

It is not so easy to realize the lack of with a CS prop but my europa now climbs solo as before with passenger and it seams the have all shortened the runways.

After my last flight today I opened the cowling after half an hour on ground and even the top of the carbs have been that hot you could not leave your hand on them.

Now it is clear for me: I need a stopcock to use the hot water only when needed.

But I wonder if it is only the heat that is responsible for the lack of power

or also the longer suction tube ( don't know the right English term).

Has anybody made similar experiences.

Tomorrow I have my test flight with the flight instructor but I will not let him in before I have got it fixed.



Thank you



Juergen

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

the first thing I would do is to eliminate the carb heat, simply by putting a clamp on the hose leading to the carbs. But I don't think it will make any difference, the carburetor heat should not make a noticeable difference.You are right about the stopcock, I hardly ever use carb heat.

If there is a loss of power or thrust, it will be for a different reason.

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

 From: experimental(at)online.de

 Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 09:42:30 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <experimental(at)online.de>

 Hello again,

 after eight months of modifying my classic I am back in the air again.

 My flight inspector said after he test flew the aircraft: "funny aircraft but be careful with your payload, it is absolutely not overpowered!"

 Well, I thought that impression you get when you are used to turboprops, like he is.

 But today it was me who made the same painful experience.

 It is not so easy to realize the lack of with a CS prop but my europa now climbs solo as before with passenger and it seams the have all shortened the runways.

 After my last flight today I opened the cowling after half an hour on ground and even the top of the carbs have been that hot you could not leave your hand on them.

 Now it is clear for me: I need a stopcock to use the hot water only when needed.

 But I wonder if it is only the heat that is responsible for the lack of power

 or also the longer suction tube ( don't know the right English term).

 Has anybody made similar experiences.

 Tomorrow I have my test flight with the flight instructor but I will not let him in before I have got it fixed.

 Thank you

 Juergen

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=373406#373406

&gt==

 	  Quote:

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi Juergen



I leave my carb body water heaters on permanently. In fact I cannot turn

them off as I did not fit a tap.  Makes no difference to the performance in

any weather + I don't need to remember to turn them on.  Mine are the thick

gasket type as supplied by Rotax agent in the UK.



Regards



Pete



Classic 912ul with NSI variable pitch prop.



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Juergen,



I understand what you are going through.  My Europa has been down for a year for extensive modifications and putting it back in flying condition has been a trial.



What engine and propeller are you using?  Is your prop adjustable? what is the static RPM and Manifold Pressure at full throttle?  



I'm not sure what you mean by "suction tube."  Can you go to the engine parts manual and get a name or part number?



Sounds like you are correct in not wanting to fly with the instructor until you have the power issue corrected.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On May 20, 2012, at 11:42 AM, europapa wrote:






Hello again,



after eight months of modifying my classic I am back in the air again.

My flight inspector said after he test flew the aircraft: "funny aircraft but be careful with your payload, it is absolutely not overpowered!"

Well, I thought that impression you get when you are used to turboprops, like he is.

But today it was me who made the same painful experience.

It is not so easy to realize the lack of with a CS prop but my europa now climbs solo as before with passenger and it seams the have all shortened the runways.

After my last flight today I opened the cowling after half an hour on ground and even the top of the carbs have been that hot you could not leave your hand on them.

Now it is clear for me: I need a stopcock to use the hot water only when needed.

But I wonder if it is only the heat that is responsible for the lack of power

or also the longer suction tube ( don't know the right English term).

Has anybody made similar experiences.

Tomorrow I have my test flight with the flight instructor but I will not let him in before I have got it fixed.



Thank you



Juergen

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Bob,



I have got a two blade MT electrical constant speed propeller.

So I preset the rpm I want the prop to turn and the control unit keeps

for example the engine at 5200rpm even with the throttle at 40%.

So the power the engine  delivers cant be calculated via manifold pressure and rpm. As there is no indicator for the pitch of the blades.

So I can not rate the lack of power by numbers.

The "longer suction tube" are the 15mm the carbs have been retracted from there original position due to the carbheaters. The length the carbheater body is adding.

Sorry for my bad phrasing.



Juergen

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

I also installed a 4 channel EGT meter and even with well balanced carbs depending on the

power setting there will be no equality. It differs a bit but with no regular pattern.

The next thing is hat the power setting meter never shows more than 760Â°C.

As the EGT meter is all new for me, I am not sure how to read this.

I suspect the engine running to lean.

What do you think?



Juergen

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:26 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi Juergen,



In our monowheel XS with Rotax 912S we use the Skydrive carb heaters.

We originally had them on all the time, but had some trouble with

restarting the engine about 15 minutes after shut down, so we installed

a water valve to allow turning off the water after landing, to keep the

carbs cooler on the taxi back to the hanger.

We did some climb testing on a hot day to see if there was any

difference in performance, heat on vs heat off.  There was no

difference, at least in our plane.



Regards,

Terry



--

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi,



in the mailing list I can see all of your replies but not here in the forum     .

I am very happy to see so many help by real experts.

Karl, Craig, Bob, Pete,Terry, John and all the others, thank you so much.

I am now thinking too that the added heat is not an  issue.

Today I had my prof-check or how do you call it?

At full throttle and even with my not so light flight inspector the power produced by my 912s at high rpm / full throttle was good.

But when reducing the rpm / throttle the engine became rough like an old diesel engine.

I am rather confused.

Now I have removed the carbs and will overhaul them.

If that will not bee the answer I will totally remove the carb heaters to see if that will solve the problem.

If there will still no cure ......... dose anybody wants to buy a very nice Europa Trigear......    ( no way!    ).

More information later, I am really tiered after this long and exciting day.



CU



Juergen

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tennant

Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 121

Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi Juergen,

How was the outside air temperature on the days you thought the power was down and the day when the power seemed OK. We have been having some pretty high temps lately in Deutschland. From my 912 experience I am cautious of high OT's as it makes a big - big difference.



Best regards



Barry Tennant

_________________
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 4:13 am Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

As it seems, it has been all my fault.

I now removed the carbs and inspected them.

The plungers have not been aligned correctly,

I did not glue the carbs into the carb heaters 

and the time I had the problem with the low power it was a hot day 

with about 28Â°C.

Put that all together and I have to be glad that it flew anyway.

Now I fixed all that and am sure the heat from the carb heaters has nothing to do with the lack of power.

Due to professional and familiar commitments (family holidays and all the work that has to be done be for that I can leave my business alone) I may not test it the next two weeks but then I hope to bring good news to you.

Happy flying!

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

So, now I am happy again.



I solved all the problems posted above.

The engine runs good and I will leave the water tubes to the carb heaters open all the time.

At lower rpm ( 4500-4800 ) there is still to much vibration for my taste but since I did not fly any other Europa I can not tell if this is normal or not.

The propeller is set to zero by the factory but occasionally I want to let it balance dynamically.

Thank you all very much for your great support.

Happy flying ( when weather gets better finally)



Juergen

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:51 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi Juergen



Glad you are sorted.



Mark Burton sells a very good dynamic prop balancer.  I have one of his

early models.



http://www.smartavionics.com/



Regards



Pete



--

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hi Pete,



Mark's site states that the very nice looking PB-3 balancer is not available for sale.  Would you have any info as to when Mark will start selling it?



Many thanks,

Pete Z

(Ottawa, Canada)

  A239 (still a pile of parts)



On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 6:48 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)>

   

 Hi Juergen

 

 Glad you are sorted.

 

 Mark Burton sells a very good dynamic prop balancer.  I have one of his

 early models.

 

 http://www.smartavionics.com/

 

 Regards

 

 Pete

 

 --

tennant

Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 121

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Juergen,



I had my prop balanced in Bonn Hangelar and it is turbine smooth now.



Barry

_________________
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Lack of power with water heated carb body mountings

Hello to all,



thank you for your suggestions.

Olaf Schiwek an German Europa builder bought a balancer and wants to help me.

I think we will balance the prop at the Europa Fly-in July the 21. in Mainz-Finthen.

I will report.



Juergen

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