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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: Question |
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Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.
I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would make the mag checks a little simpler.
And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
My questions are:
(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
That would simplify the entire process.
(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
[quote][b]
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: Question |
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Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag (Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.
I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would make the mag checks a little simpler.
And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
My questions are:
(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
That would simplify the entire process.
(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
| Quote: |
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: Question |
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Barry,
Let me write it out again. Maybe you read it so fast the first time that you missed the details.
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning on the whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your car.
Gary
PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power to the field circuit. In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the first detent; i.e., radios. If you wanted to change the emergency procedure, just pull the field breaker.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question
Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag (Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.
I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would make the mag checks a little simpler.
And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
My questions are:
(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
That would simplify the entire process.
(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
| Quote: |
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[quote][b]
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n76lima(at)mindspring.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: Question |
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Yeah, no reason that can't work. At least on an experimental. Bet you have trouble getting the FAA to approve an antique GM ignition switch.
And the key on the Master, Alternator and Starter isn't as effective at theft prevention as on the mags.
One could flip the mag switches on and hand prop it, fly away with a handheld radio.
Granted, one could open the cowl and pop the P-leads and then flip the Master on and hit the Start button on a Grumman...
--Bob Steward
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning on the
whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your car.
Gary
| | - The Matronics TeamGrumman-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List |
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: Question |
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AHhhhhh OK Gary:
I did have the sequence out of order. Your sequence:
OFF
Radio ON
Your notes did not mention Master but I guess that would be next - Master ON
ALT ON
START - Radios OFF - Would you want to turn ALT OFF during START?
Then a SPRING RETURN just like a car back to ON for Radios - Master & ALT all ON.
Yes, it could be done. Finding a quality switch to do the job will be difficult BUT! I'll look.
Gary, did you want to use a relay for the Radio operation?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]Barry,
Let me write it out again. Maybe you read it so fast the first time that you missed the details.
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning on the whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your car.
Gary
PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power to the field circuit. In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the first detent; i.e., radios. If you wanted to change the emergency procedure, just pull the field breaker.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: TeamGrumman-List: Question
Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag (Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.
I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would make the mag checks a little simpler.
And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
My questions are:
(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
That would simplify the entire process.
(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
|
| Quote: |
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List |
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: Question |
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A relay for the radios might make it simpler. I hadn't thought of that. It isn't necessary for the Alt to go off line. Just the radios. If the alt goes off line during start, it's not a problem.
Thanks
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2012 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: Question
AHhhhhh OK Gary:
I did have the sequence out of order. Your sequence:
OFF
Radio ON
Your notes did not mention Master but I guess that would be next - Master ON
ALT ON
START - Radios OFF - Would you want to turn ALT OFF during START?
Then a SPRING RETURN just like a car back to ON for Radios - Master & ALT all ON.
Yes, it could be done. Finding a quality switch to do the job will be difficult BUT! I'll look.
Gary, did you want to use a relay for the Radio operation?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Barry,
Let me write it out again. Maybe you read it so fast the first time that you missed the details.
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
The mags do not need to be a part of the switch. The mags would then be just two separate toggles.
Just as in a car, the radios can come on with the first position. Alternator with the second. So, you can turn on the radios just like you would with a split master without turning on the whole system. If an old GM ignition switch would work, then I'll look for that. It needs to be keyed. The key, then, is required to turn on the radio. Just like your car.
Gary
PS, the ALT side of the Master switch is nothing more than adding power to the field circuit. In case of an alternator failure, turn the key to the first detent; i.e., radios. If you wanted to change the emergency procedure, just pull the field breaker.
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Question
Hello Gary:
That is exactly what I fly in the RV6.
Toggle Master - Toggle ALT - Toggle L Mag - Toggle R Mag (Electronic Ignition)
Now, I went a little out there with the switches.
I used Heavy Duty DPST (Double Poll Single Throw) switches.
Heavy duty so they would have a nice solid SNAP when they are turned on and off and would not move without noticing (works great with a gloved hand).
These are the large size switch that require about a 3/8" hole for mounting and has a very high Amperage rating 15 to 20 Amps.
The DP so there is a huge amount of internal redundancy in the contact ability.
I just tied each of the sides of the switch together.
As well as having Silver Contacts.
I know, way over kill, since all they do is short out the Mag to ground and turn relays On & Off. And rubber boots are also available.
Lots of advantages - And SIMPLE.
Your question 2 "(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?"
I gather that you want it just like a cars switch system (OFF - Master ON- Alt ON - Radios ON)? But you are NOT going to connect the MAGS to the same switch, is that correct?
Then what if you want to have the RADIOS ON with the ALT OFF? <-- As in a ALT failure and Radios still functioning (Running off Battery Power)?
The next thing that comes to mind is ALL the Repetitive Training we have all gone through over the years. We have certain things infused into our brains. The pilots would have to relearn things that are a bit different than our norm and what has become almost a muscle response.
If you interested in this type of switch I will search one out for you. It would more than likely be a ROTARY switch with an enclosure. Would you want it Key Activated?
Barry
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Barry, this one is for you because you have so much more trivia knowledge about electronics than most. If anyone else knows the answer, be answer also.
I was thinking about the electronic ignition system I installed on both Dean's and Larry's planes a few months back. Both of them would have benefitted from having separate toggle switches for each mag. That would make the mag checks a little simpler.
And, then the trusty Avionics Master. I think making a single point failure in a plane is stupid, but, what do I know.
So, I got to thinking (here we go again), on a cars ignition switch,
• the first position turns on the battery. ( listen to the radio etc.)
• the second position turns on the alternator and the rest of the electrical system.
• the third position starts the car. During the start, the radios are dropped off-line to prevent damage to the radios.
My questions are:
(Q1) Why not incorporate separate toggles for the mags and an ignition switch that behaves just like a cars ignition switch?
That would simplify the entire process.
(Q2) Is there a switch that would work that is easy to convert to a planes requirements?
|
| Quote: |
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Lisofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h
|
[quote][b]
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: Question |
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On 7/5/2012 12:51 PM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | A relay for the radios might make it simpler. I hadn't thought of that.
It isn't necessary for the Alt to go off line. Just the radios. If
the alt goes off line during start, it's not a problem.
|
Beechcraft figured this out years ago. I have a relay that takes the
radios off line on my V35B.
Cliff
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