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MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

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Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Just a note about the MT propeller.  Up to one third of the MT blade can be damaged and still be rebuilt by MT to overhauled like new condition for 1/5 the cost of a new blade.  Can anyone else claim that.  I know .  Been there did that.  I was impressed at the fast turn around as well from Germany.  Not sure if a carbon or full glass blade can withstand that and then not cost $5K per blade to replace. As well as putting a higher load and chance of damage to the engine and low vibration transmission .

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

I sell MT propellers, and therefore I am very biased in favour of them.



But, to my mind, there are two critical issues that people should consider

when buying a prop:



MT props are fully certificated, and having once had propeller failure on a

non-certificated prop, I can say that it is something you never want to

happen!



Virtually all the competitors at the last 10 world aerobatic Championships

used MT propellers, which must say something.



Richard Goode



Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

 Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

+94 779 132 160.



--

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:48 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

A few years back, during AirVenture, Ray Gage ran over an orange cone out in warbird parking with his -TW with an MT. His MT prop sustained damage on one blade. The MT rep at Oshkosh, told Ray that single blades could not be replaced, they must be replaced as a set of three. Further more they said that the prop hub needed to be examined as well and they offered to do it. 



I observed the teardown, one of the plastic pitch change blocks had dented the aluminum rub plate. MT said it was not serviceable and charged Ray for a whole new prop. It took a while to get the prop.



After seeing this, and the type of customer service Ray received, I decided to forgo purchasing an MT prop.



Craig Payne

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a pr

That was the old style props not the new computer generated propellers.  Things change.  New propellers can replace one blade.  My Tw has the new propeller design.  They changed somewhere in 2003.  My service from my shop was great.

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

I have had excellent experience with MT in the US.  I have had typical short, uninterested types of discussions with the Europeans.  So not surprising to hear of Ray's experience with MT reps at OSH.



The local MT shop gets 2 thumbs up.  6-7 years ago I also hit something at OSH and dinged one blade.  In less than 24 hours I had a matched set of blades overnighted from MT USA in florida, my local MT rep did the tear down and rebuild and the prop was back on the plane flying the same day.



Herb

On Jul 17, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Cpayne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A few years back, during AirVenture, Ray Gage ran over an orange cone out in warbird parking with his -TW with an MT. His MT prop sustained damage on one blade. The MT rep at Oshkosh, told Ray that single blades could not be replaced, they must be replaced as a set of three. Further more they said that the prop hub needed to be examined as well and they offered to do it. 

 

 I observed the teardown, one of the plastic pitch change blocks had dented the aluminum rub plate. MT said it was not serviceable and charged Ray for a whole new prop. It took a while to get the prop.

 

 After seeing this, and the type of customer service Ray received, I decided to forgo purchasing an MT prop.

 

 Craig Payne

kjkimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

I remember helping with a yak that had a prop strike at Oshkosh.  It hit a cone that had a pipe in it driven into the ground.  The local MT rep didn't have a prop nor did MT USA in Deland.  I was asked by either Coy or the MT guys in the booth if I had one in stock in FL.  I did and we had it shipped up to Oshkosh to get him going.  Cliff Coy, "Mr MT," Gerd Muhlbauer, and I installed it at the show for the owner.  Seems like pretty damn good service to me.  I then ordered a replacement prop for the airplane I had that prop for.  So I took the delay instead of the yak owner at Oshkosh.  

Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, Vice President

Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849

5354 Cemetery Road

Zellwood, FL 32798-0849

407.889.3451 phone

407.889.7168 fax

www.saettaboats.com

www.pittsmodel12.com

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

Email:  Kevin(at)jimkimballenterprises.com

On Jul 17, 2012, at 3:45 PM, Cpayne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 A few years back, during AirVenture, Ray Gage ran over an orange cone out in warbird parking with his -TW with an MT. His MT prop sustained damage on one blade. The MT rep at Oshkosh, told Ray that single blades could not be replaced, they must be replaced as a set of three. Further more they said that the prop hub needed to be examined as well and they offered to do it. 

 

 I observed the teardown, one of the plastic pitch change blocks had dented the aluminum rub plate. MT said it was not serviceable and charged Ray for a whole new prop. It took a while to get the prop.

 

 After seeing this, and the type of customer service Ray received, I decided to forgo purchasing an MT prop.

 

 Craig Payne

kendal(at)acronut.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:17 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Yes I worked a deal with Whirlwind but here is some history and my experiences.  

  The last MT prop I owned I couldn't go a full season without it needing to be repaired by MT. The first time I went just over a year since overhaul before I called them about the enormous amount of grease it was slinging. I had to pay for the repair since I waited a month too long. The next two times I would email pics a couple months or weeks after the repairs and then they would cover the labor when I would send it to them. Unfortunately I had to pay for either the shipping or the flight down to FL to have them do it. They wouldn't let the prop shop here in PA do the "warranty" work even though they are an MT authorized shop. I personally don't know any other of my friends who haven't had similar issues with their MTs, and I'm not just talking about a little bit of grease on the back of the blades...  When I learned that Whirlwind had this new prop about the same time my new plane was being completed I was excited because I have several friends with Whirlwinds in their Lycomings and are extremely happy with them. I called Whirlwind and they said they needed to do some setup and testing with this new prop so I volunteered.  After we got the pitch stops and counterweights set correctly the prop has been fantastic and trouble free. I've had it two years and over 200 hours on it now and it has needed nothing. I've never flown an MT on an M14 that had more than about 3 very small power ranges where it felt in balance and smooth. When we would have it balanced it would be great until I would do a couple snap rolls or tumbles then it was back to shaking at almost every power setting again.  All four that I have flown in different engines  would be smooth all the way back or full power but could never do mid range power settings without it being rough.  My Whirlwind is extremely smooth at any power setting!    I have also had zero surging or any other issues with my Whirlwind running the stock M14 governor.  Personally if I hit something with my prop my insurance is paying for the blade, prop, engine or what!

 ever so 

I wouldn't take that into consideration when buying a prop. MT has a lot of great people that are dealers, employees, and pilots flying their product and they do make a good prop that is certified. However it's been my experience that Whirlwind has a better and significantly cheaper prop that doesn't need any tweaked or new governor to make it work right and I don't have to constantly repair or balance it either. So for me if I needed to buy a new prop, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Whirlwind.

Kendal

On Jul 17, 2012, at 17:12, Herb Coussons <drc(at)wscare.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I have had excellent experience with MT in the US.  I have had typical short, uninterested types of discussions with the Europeans.  So not surprising to hear of Ray's experience with MT reps at OSH.

 The local MT shop gets 2 thumbs up.  6-7 years ago I also hit something at OSH and dinged one blade.  In less than 24 hours I had a matched set of blades overnighted from MT USA in florida, my local MT rep did the tear down and rebuild and the prop was back on the plane flying the same day.

 Herb

 On Jul 17, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Cpayne wrote:

> 

> 

> A few years back, during AirVenture, Ray Gage ran over an orange cone out in warbird parking with his -TW with an MT. His MT prop sustained damage on one blade. The MT rep at Oshkosh, told Ray that single blades could not be replaced, they must be replaced as a set of three. Further more they said that the prop hub needed to be examined as well and they offered to do it. 

> 

> I observed the teardown, one of the plastic pitch change blocks had dented the aluminum rub plate. MT said it was not serviceable and charged Ray for a whole new prop. It took a while to get the prop.

> 

> After seeing this, and the type of customer service Ray received, I decided to forgo purchasing an MT prop.

> 

> Craig Payne

> 

> 

> 

>

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Etienne, 



http://who_really_cares_how Jan flies his own airplane?



Are you recommending that the V530 be flown in engines that produce more

than 400 HP?  



If so, bad advice.  



Best Wishes, 



Mark





--

drc(at)wscare.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

FWIW - 

465 hours MT9 with tumbles and snaps.  No problems.



Also had an MT3 on Yak 55 - no problems.  This was another cold reception by the Germans - finding out any service info on the MT3.

But again local advice from rep was excellent.  

My local rep is Larry Schlasinger in Chetek WI.  He is a Yak / I3 / Sukhoi aerobatic pilot.



Herb

drc(at)wscare.com

2641 Development Drive

Green Bay, WI  54311

Cell 920-639-8434

Work 920-338-6868

Fax 920-338-6869





On Jul 18, 2012, at 12:08 PM, Etienne Verhellen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Yeah Jan, you're happy with your MT prop.

 But you never do any snaps, flat spins, tumbling or Lomcevaks with your Yak 50.    

 We've got the standard Russian V530 TA-D35 on our Yak-52 (and a spinner !)

 and we have NEVER had any issues with it ... so far. 

 Perfectly statically and dynamically balanced (prop-engine-spinner). 

 Very smooth throughout the complete RPM range, from idle to full power and every power/prop combination in between. 

 And we do A LOT of snaps, flat spins, tumbling or Lomcevaks with your Yak 52. [Wink] 

 http://www.irishairpics.com/photo/1029467/L/Yakovlev-Yak-52/G-CBSS/Etienne-Verhellen/?&sid=&sp=

 http://youtu.be/nEp-WMjJdvw

 http://www.rtbf.be/video/v_meeting-aerien-a-saint-hubert?id=1730533&category=info

 http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=8504

 We like to keep it simple.

 "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

 The only thing is that it "needs" overhaul every 6 years according to 

 the very strict maintenance rules edicted by the UK CAA for Yakovlevs.

 Skycraft in the UK or Hoffmann in Germany do a good job overhauling  

 the standard Russian V530 TA-D35 2 blade paddle prop. 

 Having said that, as reported by Richard in a previous post, 

 a lot of much better pilot than me (most if not all) fly behind MT propellers,

 "which must say something". 

 I'm just saying that a "good old" Russian V530 TA-D35 is certainly good enough for most Yaks (50 and 52).

 Best Wishes, Etienne.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378647#378647

Etienne Verhellen

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a pr

Morning Mark !



 	  Quote: 	
		  Are you recommending that the V530 be flown in engines 

that produce more than 400 HP? 	




NO Mark, I NEVER said that. I have no idea where you got that from. ??



I simply said that the standard V530 is good enough for most Yaks.



The Hoffmann prop is nice.



The MT prop is nice. 



As Richard mentioned earlier,  the WhirlWind Aviation 3-Blade Propeller

is not an option in Europe because it is not Certified. And (unfortunately)

I have nothing to do with that or any varying European CAA requirements" for Yaks ...



Best Wishes,



Etienne.

_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Яковлев Як-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
https://www.yakovlevs.com/the-team/pilots-and-crew/

Egon

Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a pr

Hiya Guys.

 I certainly appreciate all the good info re the two props. Sam, just a quick question. Have you done a comparison on cruise speed of the two props on similarly powered CJ's? For example, power setting differences to stay in formation. Many thanks.

Egon.

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Hi Egon,



Doing a true comparison test requires more than similar power setting

between the two ships.  I am not an engineer but to me it seems that a

better comparison would be testing both props on the same aircraft and

compare the performance results.

Having said that, the only experience flying and comparing performance to an

MT was with my first Whirlwind prop (which is still a great performer).  The

other CJ had the Fucke-Wulf type MT propeller (I don't know the model number

of it).   We both had full fuel and two parachutes. I had a back-seater on

mine and he flew solo.   Miami is pretty much at sea level (actually 8 feet

above sea level).

At full power max climb I was pulling away from him at a pretty good rate -

now, what is a 'pretty good rate' - I don't know.  Al I can tell you is that

I out-climb him.



We also flew cruise and compared full power in straight and level flight

that day - here again I pulled away.  Again, this is not scientific.  It's

what I witness from my cockpit...



FWIW,



Sam

--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Thanks, nice to know. 



Mark

--

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

In fairness to MT, that F-W 190 style prop is purely for show. It is not

suitable for anything but the most gentle of aerobatics, and gives far less

performance than the standard MTV-9 with the - 29 blades.



Richard Goode



Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

 Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

+94 779 132 160.



--

kjkimball(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

The scimitar MT blades were first created for the McCullocoupe, an M14PF powered design I created and we built here.  It will be at Oshkosh at the IAC area this year along with a Model 12 with a 420hp BPE M14P, injected and electronic ignition.  That is the plan anyway.

Sincerely,



Kevin Kimball, Vice President

Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.

PO Box 849

5354 Cemetery Road

Zellwood, FL 32798-0849

407.889.3451 phone

407.889.7168 fax

www.saettaboats.com

www.pittsmodel12.com

www.jimkimballenterprises.com

Email:  Kevin(at)jimkimballenterprises.com

On Jul 19, 2012, at 4:58 PM, Dale wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 The FW-190 blade was made for just  that a scaled 190 built in limited production kit/experimental.   MT also makes a scimitar blade as well.   The Radial Rocket uses the scimitar shaped blade.  You can get the Straight, 190, or scimitar blade for the MT.  I asked for a paddle blade and they said no even though they build one for a scaled 51190 in a four blade. The standard - 29  can be built to a number of diameters.  Your choice

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=378768#378768

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Richard,



I was not aware that this was designed purely or mainly for show...  I can

tell you with high degree of confidence that the guy I was referring to in

my previous e-mail who had this  MT "Fucke-Wulf"  prop was not aware of this

limited performance either.  He operates his CJ out of a high elevation

airport and was looking for a strong performing prop for that purpose.  He

liked the shape of the blades and I guess he assumed it will perform.

Frankly, he was very upset with the results of that flight and suspected

that his engine was the problem.  I believe there are more of this MT model

prop flying in the US -an I can't help but wonder if they were they told

about the limited performance by MT?   MT is a reputable company so the

owners may indeed have been told and opted to buy it anyway - nothing wrong

with that.



As they say, this is "neither here nor there"... Some like the MT props,

others like the Whirlwind props - similar to the expression: some like

brunettes and some like blondes... 



As far as I am concerned I like brunettes and the Whirlwind prop...   notice

the plural and singular use of the words - if my wife ever finds out, I am

in deep trouble... LOL



Sam

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Sam,

My wife approved the two steel mistresses. No others though. I believe Tom Johnson has a FW-190 MT prop on his 5o.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 19, 2012, at 8:58 PM, "Sam Sax" <cd001633(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Richard,

 

 I was not aware that this was designed purely or mainly for show...  I can

 tell you with high degree of confidence that the guy I was referring to in

 my previous e-mail who had this  MT "Fucke-Wulf"  prop was not aware of this

 limited performance either.  He operates his CJ out of a high elevation

 airport and was looking for a strong performing prop for that purpose.  He

 liked the shape of the blades and I guess he assumed it will perform.

 Frankly, he was very upset with the results of that flight and suspected

 that his engine was the problem.  I believe there are more of this MT model

 prop flying in the US -an I can't help but wonder if they were they told

 about the limited performance by MT?   MT is a reputable company so the

 owners may indeed have been told and opted to buy it anyway - nothing wrong

 with that.

 

 As they say, this is "neither here nor there"... Some like the MT props,

 others like the Whirlwind props - similar to the expression: some like

 brunettes and some like blondes... 

 

 As far as I am concerned I like brunettes and the Whirlwind prop...   notice

 the plural and singular use of the words - if my wife ever finds out, I am

 in deep trouble... LOL

 

 Sam

 

 

 --

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a pr

Maybe your friend with the 190 prop blades can send it back to Germany and have them rebuild it into a -29 for the same price as a blade overhaul?  Just thinking.  Might at least have one advantage to being a MT if it could work.  If that doesn't work have your friend get your prop.  He can afford it. If it's who I think it is.

Dale

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop

Sam, 

 

I talked to MT about the FW blades versus the MTV9-260 (newer) blades, and they warned me that the FW blades would not perform as well.  They did not give a ton of details, but did clearly point out they would not have the same vertical penetration or overall thrust.  They said if performance was my primary goal, to not go with the FW blades.  

 

Tom Johnson does have the FW blades and indicated to me that he liked them.  

 

Mark

 



________________________________



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Sam Sax

Sent: Thu 7/19/2012 9:58 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a prop






Richard,



I was not aware that this was designed purely or mainly for show...  I can

tell you with high degree of confidence that the guy I was referring to in

my previous e-mail who had this  MT "Fucke-Wulf"  prop was not aware of this

limited performance either.  He operates his CJ out of a high elevation

airport and was looking for a strong performing prop for that purpose.  He

liked the shape of the blades and I guess he assumed it will perform.

Frankly, he was very upset with the results of that flight and suspected

that his engine was the problem.  I believe there are more of this MT model

prop flying in the US -an I can't help but wonder if they were they told

about the limited performance by MT?   MT is a reputable company so the

owners may indeed have been told and opted to buy it anyway - nothing wrong

with that.



As they say, this is "neither here nor there"... Some like the MT props,

others like the Whirlwind props - similar to the expression: some like

brunettes and some like blondes... 



As far as I am concerned I like brunettes and the Whirlwind prop...   notice

the plural and singular use of the words - if my wife ever finds out, I am

in deep trouble... LOL



Sam

--

tjyak50

Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 81
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:54 am Post subject: Re: MT 3 Blade Propeller Food For Thought when choosing a pr

 	  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: 	
		  Sam, 

 

I talked to MT about the FW blades versus the MTV9-260 (newer) blades, and they warned me that the FW blades would not perform as well.  They did not give a ton of details, but did clearly point out they would not have the same vertical penetration or overall thrust.  They said if performance was my primary goal, to not go with the FW blades.  

 

Tom Johnson does have the FW blades and indicated to me that he liked them.  

 

Mark- 	


I did have the 190 prop and did like it, but I am back to my crusty old Mtv3 again.  It was on *loan* to me and unfortunately the loaning party found a need for it.  I was just helping keep it warm, I swear.



The Fw190 blade was great in the 50 because of the amazing braking action in the pattern.    The Mtv3 climbs similar and maybe a little faster overall.  But I am just not that good of a pilot to tell a huge difference.  We are talking small differences here.



Fact is that my Yak 50 with 430hp and 1687lbs empty weight is a monster no matter what prop is on it.  I just hang on and fly wing where I am told.



:)  Tj

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