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spark plug adhesive

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Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:01 am Post subject: spark plug adhesive

I remember reading somewhere that a spark plug adhesive should be used on two stroke engines like my Rotax 503 to prevent the spark plugs from vibrating out of the cyl heads.

If this is correct what is the best adhesive to use ?

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

Dennis:



I hate the Internet.  It spreads B.S. at the speed of an electron.  Lets work together to TRY to eliminate THIS type of B.S.

There are NO ADHESIVES made or used to hold a spark plug in an engine. <-- PERIOD

 



What is put on the threads of a spark plug is ANTI-SEZIE.  Just the opposite of an adhesive   Something to assist in the removal of a spark plug.  Something to prevent fretting.  

 Want to prevent spark plugs from loosening?  

1 - Use clean flat washers under the plug.  Yes, many of the plugs used by Rotax owners do not have replaceable/removable washers.   Sorry about that.

2 - Use the proper torque on the plugs.

 3 - Balance the engine and prop for minimal vibration.

I have NEVER heard of a plug vibrating out.  Not unless the person who installed the plug screwed up!

I have seen the tower of the spark plug get blown off though.  

 



Barry

I hate the Internet... B.S.





On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Dennis Thate <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Dennis Thate" <retroman(at)frontier.com (retroman(at)frontier.com)>

  

 I remember reading somewhere that a spark plug adhesive should be used on two stroke engines like my Rotax 503 to prevent the spark plugs from vibrating out of the cyl heads.

 If this is correct what is the best adhesive to use ?

 

 --------

 Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society.  The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute.  ~Gil Stern

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382443#382443

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Your two stroke plugs should be torqued cold and nothing on the threads.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Thanks Guys for squelching that rumor, and setting the record straight.



http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_torques.htm

14mm Spark Plugs 27 238 20 Anti-Seize On a cold engine

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Last edited by Dennis Thate on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:17 am; edited 2 times in total

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Hi All.

I am not sure what you mean by anti-seize , as the only past i am aware of is the Heat Transfer Past applied to the threads of the sparking plugs to help keep the plugs cool, the same principle is used on computers when fitting a CPU to the motherboard again to transfer heat.

This past is recommended to be used by Rotax.



Alan

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

Hi Allen:



That stuff applied to the threads of the spark plugs is ANTI-SEIZE.  It has nothing to do with heat transfer.  At least not the way you are thinking of it, it  is not a Heat Sink Compound.  Heat Sink Compounds are Silicone Based.  The heat transfer stuff should NOT be used as anti-seize.    

 Anti-Seize has two purposes:

1 - To prevent parts from 'seizing' together because of:

a> Dissimilar materials

b> Rust/Corrosion

c> Fretting

d> High Temperature applications

 In many engines there are three materials all in conjugation right at the spark plugs:

i> Aluminum

ii> Stainless Steel

iii> Steel

These materials have difficulties when living in the same environment.

 



2 - The second purpose is a function of the first... To make the parts EASY to be removed.

There are three basic compounds used in Anti-Seize:

1 - Copper Based

 2 - Silver Based

3 - Graphite and/or Molybdenum Sulfide Based



The major difference between them are the Working Temperature Ranges.  Some are also used because they do not off gas.

 Hope this helps in you understanding of Anti-Seize.

Barry



On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

  

 Hi All.

 I am not sure what you mean by anti-seize , as the only past i am aware of is the Heat Transfer Past applied to the threads of the sparking plugs to help keep the plugs cool, the same principle is used on computers when fitting a CPU to the motherboard again to transfer heat.

  This past is recommended to be used by Rotax.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382526#382526

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Hello Barry.

Sounds like you know your Anti seize,

But what's this, its recommended by Rotax on 4 stroke engines especially the 914 to spread the heat load.



Product ID: HTC

4 STROKE HEAT TRANSFER COMPOUND Details 

 

  

1 ml is enough for 1 set of 8 spark plugs.



 

http://www.skydrive.co.uk/products.asp?cat=51 



Can any body tell me why the 914 plugs are Â£9.78



Alan

bob(at)fly-ul.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Why would there be a difference in anti-seize requirements between two stroke and four stroke?  


	


There is no mention of using anti-seize on the 4 stroke engines either. As someone else pointed out, the 900 series calls for heat transfer paste, but no anti-seize. The 2-stroke manuals also do not call for anything.

--

Bob Comperini

e-mail: bob(at)fly-ul.com

WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Thank you Bob.

That,s plane enough.

Regards

Alan

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

Rotax 912/914 engines require heat sink compound on the plug threads to transfer heat from the plug to the head.

Pete



On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:37 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]Hi Allen:



That stuff applied to the threads of the spark plugs is ANTI-SEIZE.  It has nothing to do with heat transfer.  At least not the way you are thinking of it, it  is not a Heat Sink Compound.  Heat Sink Compounds are Silicone Based.  The heat transfer stuff should NOT be used as anti-seize.    

 Anti-Seize has two purposes:

1 - To prevent parts from 'seizing' together because of:

a> Dissimilar materials

b> Rust/Corrosion

c> Fretting

d> High Temperature applications

 In many engines there are three materials all in conjugation right at the spark plugs:

i> Aluminum

ii> Stainless Steel

iii> Steel

These materials have difficulties when living in the same environment.

 



2 - The second purpose is a function of the first... To make the parts EASY to be removed.

There are three basic compounds used in Anti-Seize:

1 - Copper Based

 2 - Silver Based

3 - Graphite and/or Molybdenum Sulfide Based



The major difference between them are the Working Temperature Ranges.  Some are also used because they do not off gas.

 Hope this helps in you understanding of Anti-Seize.

Barry



On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

  

 Hi All.

 I am not sure what you mean by anti-seize , as the only past i am aware of is the Heat Transfer Past applied to the threads of the sparking plugs to help keep the plugs cool, the same principle is used on computers when fitting a CPU to the motherboard again to transfer heat.

  This past is recommended to be used by Rotax.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382526#382526

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 

	


[b]

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

Alan:



It is very simple.  They did not do their homework.

As I mentioned there are different anti-seizes for different heat ranges.  Some do contain metals and both copper and silver will transfer heat faster than steel or stainless steel.  BUT!  To take that little bit of information of heat transfer and call it a Heat Sink Compound is only Advertising Bunk.  

 



Think of it this way... What would transfer heat better:

a> A solid hunk of steel without any gaps or dissimilarities in molecular construction or

b> Two pieces of dissimilar metals with gaps between them, gaps that are being held together only by a tension force (screwed together)(spark plugs)?

 



Obviously the solid would do better in heat transfer.  

And if heat sink was so important, why doesn't the two cycle engine use ANYTHING on the spark plugs?  Which engine produces more heat, four cycle or two cycle?

 A: [Two cycle]

And if this 'advertised' heat sink compound did anything why isn't the heat range changed on the spark plug?  

Ya can't mess with physics but you sure can mess with the uninformed consumer's head.  Just look at women's make up and wrinkle commercials.  And men are no better.  Which Gas is best, which Oil is best, which Tires are best... Oh, don't put air in your tires use Nitrogen.  Use Thin Silicone baffle seals, they are more flexible... NO!  Use Thick Silicone baffle seals they are stiffer, they put more force against the sealing surface.  Want more?  I can write a book on it.  And I would, IF I knew it would sell.

 



Alan & Gaggle - Always remember the BEST areas of controversy are those things that CANNOT be proven or disproved beyond ANY shadow of doubt.  Things like HP, SPEED and HEAT.  

 Stick with known physics and leave the hype to Make Up Commercials.

AND - PLEASE - Please don't contribute to the spread of B.S. at the speed of an electron.



 

Barry



 On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

[quote]  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

 

 Hello Barry.

 Sounds like you know your Anti seize,

 But what's this, its recommended by Rotax on 4 stroke engines especially the 914 to spread the heat load.

 

 Product ID: HTC

 4 STROKE HEAT TRANSFER COMPOUND Details

 

 

 1 ml is enough for 1 set of 8 spark plugs.

 

 

 http://www.skydrive.co.uk/products.asp?cat=51

 

 Can any body tell me why the 914 plugs are £9.78

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=382549#382549

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

daberti(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

No! It  is actually heat transfer paste.  The same as used on computer processor  chips, but  to sink heat to the cylinder heads and it only needs to be on  the last 5 threads (aprox.)

 [quote]   

   --

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: spark plug adhesive

FLYaDIVE a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 And if heat sink was so important, why doesn't the two cycle engine 

 use ANYTHING on the spark plugs?  Which engine produces more heat, 

 four cycle or two cycle?

 A: [Two cycle]



 And if this 'advertised' heat sink compound did anything why isn't the 

 heat range changed on the spark plug? 


	


Barry and all,



Good point.

This strange recommendation from Rotax is not supported by simple physics :

Only 20/30% of spark plug total heat rejection is by way of the thread, 

so even if a little paste did improve heat transfer by say, 20 %, the 

plug heat rejection would improve only by 5 to 6 %...



What DOES work on the other hand, is providing adequate head cooling : a 

properly cooled head is the best heat sink one may dream of to have 

cooler plugs.



BTW, what is proposed as heat sink compound by a well known European 

importer, is actually *copper antiseize* and yet no adverse effect on 

the thousands of engines flying in this area.

So real heat sink might not be so necessary after all...



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Hello All.

Oh Boy, this is all good stuff and very interesting comments and is nice to have all participating in the topic i have learned a lot about Heat sink and anti seize , 

My own thoughts on the matter are, if you have used either product i don,t think any harm will be done, and as some one said, better cooling of the whole cylinder head is the best, but if you have trouble in getting the plugs out stick a bit of anti seize on then,



Why do the Rotax Plugs for the 914 cost Â£10 and the 912  Â£3 

and you can get them for Â£2.20 on the net. ???

Its the same Make same Number, and when you phone up Denso 

they only produce this plug globally .

I am happy to accept rip off, but is there something i should know.



Alan

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: Re: spark plug adhesive

Hi Alan,



You can use NGK DP9EA-9 plugs for the 914 and they are only about $3 each.



http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1365



The difference between the 2 stroke and 4 stroke torque and installation differences is the head material and service type.

2 stroke plugs are torqued dry and in a cold head.



Anti seize is not recommended for the Rotax. To me anti seize is old school when nothing else was around back then to help prevent galling or seizure.

Now days there are better alternatives. Many GA aircraft owners at my field have tossed the anti seize and are using the silicone based heat transfer compound. It does the same as anti seize as far as a thread lube and prevents seizure, but it does one thing better than anti seize in that it transfers heat better. If anti seize worked as well then they might have used it on circuit boards too. All heat transfer paste really does is help fill in microscopic spaces within the thread structure and help temps sync a little easier between plug thread and cyl head. It's not a huge importance, but it's part of the Rotax maint. routine.

Will the 912 or 914 run with dry plugs or with anti seize, sure they will, but the heat transfer paste makes it a little better. With more than 20+ years of 912 business and tens of millions of dollars in research, 85% of the small aircraft market using Rotax engines and millions of flight hours and I think Rotax has a fair handle on what seems to give that particular engine an edge and are there some US alternatives to European products to use, yes, but knowing which ones are important at times.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: spark plug adhesive

Well, just for the sake of it. The insulator in a spark plug runs at 1000 to 1300 degrees. Too cold and the plug can't burn off the carbon and combustion residue, too hot and you risk detonation and destroying your engine. Having the spark plug torqued into the cylinder head is essential for the cooling path of the plug. Read the article in Sport Aviation about the Cirrus owner who got his airplane back from annual with a plug severely under torqued. Cylinder head temperature, as recorded by the aircraft's engine information system peaked at almost 700 degrees. In less than five minutes the piston was holed and the owner had an emergency on his hands.

 



Rick Girard



On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr (Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  FLYaDIVE a écrit :

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 And if heat sink was so important, why doesn't the two cycle engine use ANYTHING on the spark plugs?  Which engine produces more heat, four cycle or two cycle?

 A: [Two cycle]

 

 And if this 'advertised' heat sink compound did anything why isn't the heat range changed on the spark plug? 

 	
 



 Barry and all,

 

 Good point.

 This strange recommendation from Rotax is not supported by simple physics :

 Only 20/30% of spark plug total heat rejection is by way of the thread, so even if a little paste did improve heat transfer by say, 20 %, the plug heat rejection would improve only by 5 to 6 %...

 

 What DOES work on the other hand, is providing adequate head cooling : a properly cooled head is the best heat sink one may dream of to have cooler plugs.

 

 BTW, what is proposed as heat sink compound by a well known European importer, is actually *copper antiseize* and yet no adverse effect on the thousands of engines flying in this area.

 So real heat sink might not be so necessary after all...

 

 Best regards,

 -- 

 Gilles

 http://contrails.free.fr

 

 

 

 

 	




-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

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