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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
<![if !supportLists]>1) <![endif]>Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
<![if !supportLists]>2) <![endif]>Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
<![if !supportLists]>3) <![endif]>Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
<![if !supportLists]>4) <![endif]>How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
[quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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On Sunday, September 9, 2012, Bradly Banks wrote:
| Quote: |
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
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| Quote: |
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
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yes.
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2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
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Yes, but if you reduce throttle until MAP is below ambient pressure, fuel will flow into the induction system.
| Quote: |
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
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Probably. In fact, there is likely a throttle position that will provide proper mixture and power sufficient for level flight.
| Quote: |
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
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Who knows. Could be 5 minutes, could be 30. But I would bet you could go at least 5.
At a form clinic at Deer Valley a number of years ago a Yak52 dumped all it's oil overboard. The first hint the pilot had was the prop going into coarse pitch. He then proceeded to fly back to the airport with no oil pressure, something like 10 minutes. Not only did the engine NOT sieze there was no sign of damage at all. Last I heard, it was still flying. Modern oils really are quite amazing.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
[quote][b]
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Again, showing my total ignorance of the Yak 52 fuel system, I would point out that the CJ6 header tank will deliver down to zero fuel (maybe a few cc’s left) even though the fuel out port is located at the mid-tank position. The internal design is such that for all practical purpose there is zero fuel remaining.
Walt
From: bill wade (bwade154(at)yahoo.com)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 11:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za>
To: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
| Quote: | < font>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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[quote][b]
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Yak 52 and yak 50 are plumbed for when Cyl is selected ( left for 50 and R for
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
[quote] Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Skype: brad.banks10
[b]
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
[quote] Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Skype: brad.banks10
[b]
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting scenario |
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Yak has check valves in the primer to allow one way fuel flow otherwise the primer would not work when you pull out the plunger. So supercharger can not pressurize the system. If the check valves get gummed up the primer does not work worth a crap either and you can take them out and clean them.
You can pull the plunger out for starting and leave it there if you need a shot of prime while starting but will not run by just leaving it open unless you have a electric fuel pump in series before the primer line providing fuel pressure to unseat the check valve.
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Thanks Doc;
So the system operation is the same as the CJ6 with the exception of the emergency pump type. Primer fuel is injected into the intake manifold and emergency fuel is delivered to the carburettor via the engine driven pump bypass valve. That is as it should be.
Walt
From: Roger Kemp M.D. (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 1:15 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
[quote] Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Skype: brad.banks10
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Hello Doc, and all who have added their comments, the retaining bolts that hold the brass /bronze bushing in place setting up the “lash” between the bevel gears , slowly worked themselves loose and the gap eventually got too large to drive the oil and fuel systems.(result of a tab plate not correctly bent).
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: 09 September 2012 10:16 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
<![if !supportLists]>1) <![endif]>Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
<![if !supportLists]>2) <![endif]>Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
<![if !supportLists]>3) <![endif]>Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
<![if !supportLists]>4) <![endif]>How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Skype: brad.banks10
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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You are wrong about the UK Yak 50, which we are currently restoring.
All the oil fell out due to the pressure-release valve not being wire-locked, and the engine lasted about 3 min after the pilot noticed the problem, but probably at least 10 min without oil before he did.
When the engine finally seized, it was with sufficient violence to break the propeller shaft, and most of the piston-rings were actually welded into the cylinders and immovable!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel:Â +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: 09 September 2012 19:28
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)>
To: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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We had an oil line failure on an M-14 powered CJ-6, which seized on the his down wind leg for landing (talk about luck!). A number of connecting rods failed, plus the prop shaft sheared right behind the reduction gears. There lots of evidence of over heating on the bent connecting rods too. The pilot isn't sure how long he went without oil pressure. Over age oil lines was the cause.
Over the years I heard many different stories (maybe somewhat outlandish) about engine running HOURS without oil pressure, I would not count on it nor expect an engine to last minutes with failed pressure. It all depends as they say. You may have to just enough time to pick a good spot or (over mountains at night) make a call and hit the silk when it quits.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 9/10/2012 3:24:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com writes:
| Quote: |
You are wrong about the UK Yak 50, which we are currently restoring.
All the oil fell out due to the pressure-release valve not being wire-locked, and the engine lasted about 3 min after the pilot noticed the problem, but probably at least 10 min without oil before he did.
When the engine finally seized, it was with sufficient violence to break the propeller shaft, and most of the piston-rings were actually welded into the cylinders and immovable!
Richard Goode
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: 09 September 2012 19:28
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Bradly I remember a story of a new Yak 52 owner ferrying his new to him airplane back east from Ca and what I recall is that on a straight in final to one of the airports the engine quit due to fuel starvation and he pumped enough fuel through the primer to make the airport.
It kind of makes since as the header tank would have at least two gals of fuel in it cause it draws fuel from the top of the tank in upright flight (bottom - inverted)and the primer draws from the bottom (I think). But I also think you would have to pump the primer, although if you don't center the primer in normal flight it sure does run rich.
We would need a diagram of the fuel system and header tank, Dennis
As for the oil pressure there is a video of a Yak 50 in England that ran out of oil it didn't last long.
Bill Wade
From: Bradly Banks <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)>
To: Yak-List Digest Server <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za
Skype: brad.banks10
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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One minor addition to that Dale,
In a Yak, if you pull the plunger out (or leave it in for that matter)
and have it turned towards "Cylinders", fuel will indeed be sucked
through the primer pump system by engine induction vacuum and will
richen the mixture slightly even without pumping. The engine vacuum
alone will unseat the check valve you are speaking about at idle. This
is easily confirmed; Simply try it. You will see the engine RPM
decrease slightly, and the engine may run a tad rough from the overly
rich mixture. Put it back in the neutral position and it will clear
right up and idle correctly.
Once the manifold pressure exceeds ambient, this will no longer
happen.... obviously. But it will also not back-flow as per your
explanation.
Mark
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brad(at)runawaymedia.co.z
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Thanks Mark , nice to hear from you again
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havard.dale(at)yaknorway.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Hi,
Look at this one, engine failure after take off. Pilot manage to climb out after hiting the ground with his wing and cuted some trees. Engine did cut after fuel supply problems and Pilot primed the engine and kept it running for a return to field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAfuNWSCaI
HĂĄvard Dale
Yaknorway
[quote] ---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Roger...as said before, rare as hell for the gears in the accessory case to fail from metal fatigue. Human
error, now that is another issue.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 10, 2012, at 12:05 AM, "Bradly Banks" <brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Doc, and all who have added their comments, the retaining bolts that hold the brass /bronze bushing in place setting up the “lash” between the bevel gears , slowly worked themselves loose and the gap eventually got too large to drive the oil and fuel systems.(result of a tab plate not correctly bent).
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Kemp M.D.
Sent: 09 September 2012 10:16 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Well that was nice! iPad strikes again. You can keep the engine running with the cylinder side selected.
Takes a lot of work! Rotating the primer to Syst. Side pressurizes the system. Helps prime the fuel pump.
It is extremely rare for the accessory drive plenary gears to fail unless the entire drive shaft from the master
Crank through the supercharger shears. Very rare. It is possible for the splined drive shaft for the oil pump and the fuel pump to shear.Thereby losing both pumps. Again very rare. Dave Harcourt had it happen and did exactly as the handbook stated. He had his student in the front seat pump like hall while he flew the AC back to the airport.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:23 PM, "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Bradly;
It is an interesting scenario;
My answer to question one is no. However, this is based on the assumption (always a bad idea – but here I go again) that the Yak 52 in this regard is plumbed the same as the CJ6. The CJ uses the identical engine primer with the notable exception that the RH outlet is directly by-passed to the LH outlet so that selection of either side delivers primer fuel to the intake manifold.
Emergency fuel is provided by a hand operated wobble pump delivering fuel to the engine driven pump. If the engine driven pump is static (failed) fuel is delivered to the carburetor through an internal bypass valve in the engine driven pump. Both the Huosai and the M14P engine driven pumps APPEAR identical. But if that is not the case and the Russian one does not have an internal bypass (unlikely) then all M14P installations in the CJ will be without an emergency fuel supply.
If the Yak 52 is plumbed to deliver EMERGENCY fuel directly to the intake manifold then my answer is wrong.
Walt
From: Bradly Banks (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Interesting scenario
Hello All , here is an interesting scenario that has come up in the late evening discussions whilst chewing the cud.
We all know now that the accessory drive gear failed, and that the engine stopped due to fuel starvation…. In the POH the Russians suggest that the fuel primer pump be left in the right (Cyl) and out position when cold starting to allow unrestricted fuel into the intake. Pg 16 /20 {http://ebookbrowse.com/rpa-yak52-poh-pdf-d148849914}
1) Would this allow fuel to be sucked directly into the intake bypassing the carb system
2) Would the pressure created by the supercharger blow the fuel back into the tank?
3) Could the aircraft have been given a few vital minutes by allowing unrestricted fuel into the intake, for the Pilot to have made a better choice of emergency landing?
4) How long could the engine run with out oil pressure as a result of the gears disengaging ?
Bradly Banks
Cell:0825083200
Tel :0333308580
Email :brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za (brad(at)runawaymedia.co.za)
Skype: brad.banks10
01234
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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I can also testify to running the Yak52 engine on the primer during a fuel starvation problem. Early march about 7 years ago I was hired to pick up a 52 just outside of Boston and bring it to our shop in Vermont. The airplane had sat for about 3 years. After a through ramp inspection I got it going. Ran it up for a good bit. Found the com radio and transponder INOP. I elected to fly NORDO. It was at a towered field, so I arranged with the tower for light gun signals to depart. My course home put me right into ARSA, so I climed to clear it. Sure enough at 6500 ft right over Manchester NH airport the engine quit. No fuel pressure. I used the primer (cylinder position) to keep the engine going. Each stroke of the primer gave a burst of power. I headed toward frozen lakes about 15 miles north. I was able to maintain altitude. Approaching the Lakes I elected to continue another few miles to land at Lakes Region airport. Still using the hand primer. During descent to land the engine started to run normally. After normal landing I inspected the fuel system and vent system carefully. I found no problems. Engine ran normally, so I continued home. I never did find out the problem, but I suspected that I had some water in the system that froze and blocked the normal fuel pump system.
George Coy
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of HĂĄvard Dale
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 4:22 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Hi,
Look at this one, engine failure after take off. Pilot manage to climb out after hiting the ground with his wing and cuted some trees. Engine did cut after fuel supply problems and Pilot primed the engine and kept it running for a return to field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAfuNWSCaI
HĂĄvard Dale
Yaknorway
[quote]
---
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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Interesting story! Thanks for sharing!
Jan
From: George Coy <george.coy(at)gmail.com (george.coy(at)gmail.com)>
Reply-To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Tuesday 11 September 2012 14:17
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: RE: Interesting scenario
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I can also testify to running the Yak52 engine on the primer during a fuel starvation problem. Early march about 7 years ago I was hired to pick up a 52 just outside of Boston and bring it to our shop in Vermont. The airplane had sat for about 3 years. After a through ramp inspection I got it going. Ran it up for a good bit. Found the com radio and transponder INOP. I elected to fly NORDO. It was at a towered field, so I arranged with the tower for light gun signals to depart. My course home put me right into ARSA, so I climed to clear it. Sure enough at 6500 ft right over Manchester NH airport the engine quit. No fuel pressure. I used the primer (cylinder position) to keep the engine going. Each stroke of the primer gave a burst of power. I headed toward frozen lakes about 15 miles north. I was able to maintain altitude. Approaching the Lakes I elected to continue another few miles to land at Lakes Region airport. Still using the hand primer. During descent to land the engine started to run normally. After normal landing I inspected the fuel system and vent system carefully. I found no problems. Engine ran normally, so I continued home. I never did find out the problem, but I suspected that I had some water in the system that froze and blocked the normal fuel pump system.
George Coy
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hĺvard Dale
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 4:22 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Interesting scenario
Hi,
Look at this one, engine failure after take off. Pilot manage to climb out after hiting the ground with his wing and cuted some trees. Engine did cut after fuel supply problems and Pilot primed the engine and kept it running for a return to field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFAfuNWSCaI
Hĺvard Dale
Yaknorway
[quote]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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I remember that the old T-34B that I flew had a switch marked as "Emergency Fuel". Can't quite remember how it worked, but I think it by-passed the normal fuel delivery system and fed pressurized fuel right to the fuel injection distributor. Gave full throttle only, but worked pretty darn well.
Given all the stories on this topic, and also given some of the individual designs I have heard discussed on this list about electric fuel pump additions, it seems pretty clear that an emergency backup fuel delivery system could be added to both the M-14 and Housai engine designs pretty darn easily. I wouldn't mind having something like that actually... but it is nice to know that if you have a strong right hand, you might just get by with the primer pump!
Mark
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rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: Interesting scenario |
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"if you have a strong right hand, you might just get by"
I'm going to boldly NOT go where everyone else is already thinking anyway..
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