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rotax377

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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: rotax377

KOLBERS, I am in search of an engine to replace the 447 the Firefly was designed for that doesnt cost $5000 I was looking at 377s for sale did google search and ended up at Ski Do sites on Ebay and Craigslist  ETC They are selling ski do's with 377s some with electric start for $250 to $450 ! are these the same cases that the aircraft 377s come in? will a reduction gear bolt on to them?If they are and need to be rebuilt they will still be a lot cheaper than the $5000 engines I have been looking at like the MZ-201 !Any input will be appreciated. Chris



 

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: rotax377

At 05:53 PM 2/20/2012, chris davis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  KOLBERS, I am in search of an engine to replace the 447 the Firefly was designed for that doesnt cost $5000 I was looking at 377s for sale did google search and ended up at Ski Do sites on Ebay and Craigslist  ETC They are selling ski do's with 377s some with electric start for $250 to $450 ! are these the same cases that the aircraft 377s come in? will a reduction gear bolt on to them?If they are and need to be rebuilt they will still be a lot cheaper than the $5000 engines I have been looking at like the MZ-201 !Any input will be appreciated. 	


 How about a Cuyuna?  35HP, They go for a lot less than a Rotax, parts are cheap, and IMHO their bad reputation is largely undeserved.



 -Dana



 

 

 --

 Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.  

    [quote][b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: rotax377

Thanks Dana I will look into it . do you know anything about the ski do rotax 377s ? 

 

  

 Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



    

From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 8:18 PM

Subject: Re: rotax377

 At 05:53 PM 2/20/2012, chris davis wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  KOLBERS, I am in search of an engine to replace the 447 the Firefly was designed for that doesnt cost $5000 I was looking at 377s for sale did google search and ended up at Ski Do sites on Ebay and Craigslist  ETC They are selling ski do's with 377s some with electric start for $250 to $450 ! are these the same cases that the aircraft 377s come in? will a reduction gear bolt on to them?If they are and need to be rebuilt they will still be a lot cheaper than the $5000 engines I have been looking at like the MZ-201 !Any input will be appreciated. 	


How about a Cuyuna?  35HP, They go for a lot less than a Rotax, parts are cheap, and IMHO their bad reputation is largely undeserved.



-Dana



 --

 Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.  

[quote]



=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List



[b]

Ducati SS

Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: Re: rotax377

It was so many years ago that I worked on the 377 I can not tell you for certain about any extra mounting points on the PTO end of the engine. But I really doubt you would be able to mount a gearbox. the sleds of that era almost all mounted the engine from the bottom and only needed an internally threaded crankshaft to mount the clutch. You may be able to use one of the plate mounted belt drives. The 377 was a good running engine but I will pass along one big warning. We sold some 377 powered Ski-Doos 2 of which returned at the start of their 2nd season not running.

They both had the worst internal corrosion of any engines I have seen in 35 years of repair work. I have a theory as to what happened but I can not explain why it only happened to the 377. I believe the failure was caused by a combination of synthetic oil and oil injection. Oil injection works off both rpm and throttle opening. The system pumps very little at closed throttle low rpm. On the other hand pre mix always carries enough oil for the engines highest demand. So on shut down with premix the engine is pulling in more oil than needed, its not burned as the ignition is off, so it is left to coat the inside of the engine. Oil injection backs oil delivery way off at shut down and may not be coating internal parts as well. combine this with synthetic oils reduced resistance to corrosion and it ruined the top end of the 2 engines.  Now I don't know about other parts of the country but in this part of the northeast snowmobiles are often among the most neglected machines on earth. Many times they appear to be left right where the snow melts out from under them. They would come in the shop full of leaves and mice and with the seat covers rotted from sunshine. I do not think I would buy any airplane engine sight unseen unless the deal included at least a short term return policy.

mburdge39

Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 18
Location: Brookville PA

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: rotax377

I have a 377 on my Firefly. The provision 4 takes an "A" gearbox while the provision 8 takes a "B" gearbox(plus others). The Ski-doo snowmobiles have neither provision and you must use a belt reduction drive.

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_________________
Mike
Firefly

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: rotax377

Thank you Mike

 

 How does the 377 perform ,what is your climb rate? take off distance etc / thanks again you are the first 377 flyer of any aircraft that  I have heard from! 

 Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



    

From: mburdge39 <mburdge(at)windstream.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:12 PM

Subject: Re: rotax377

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mburdge39" <mburdge(at)windstream.net (mburdge(at)windstream.net)>



I have a 377 on my Firefly. The provision 4 takes an "A" gearbox while the provision 8 takes a "B" gearbox(plus  others). The Ski-doo snowmobiles have neither provision and you must use a belt reduction drive.



--------

Mike

Firefly





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 [quote][b]

mburdge39

Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 18
Location: Brookville PA

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: rotax377

I bought the firefly last year and have not flown it myself yet. I do have a video on CD of take-offs and landings with the 377 from the former owner. I would gladly send you a copy of the video. 

I have an extra 447 waiting to swap on if needed, but the former owner/builder said he loved the 377 as it was a smooth running engine with plenty of power for the Firefly.

Shoot me a message with your address and I will get a copy of the CD in the mail to you. I might even have an economical engine for you!

_________________
Mike
Firefly

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: rotax377

Chris,

 

As best I can recall, there was not much difference between the 377 and 447.

 

Dennis

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris davis

Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:35 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: rotax377

 

Thank you Mike

How does the 377 perform ,what is your climb rate? take off distance etc / thanks again you are the first 377 flyer of any aircraft that  I have heard from! 



Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



From: mburdge39 <mburdge(at)windstream.net (mburdge(at)windstream.net)>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:12 PM

Subject: Re: rotax377

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mburdge39" <mburdge(at)windstream.net (mburdge(at)windstream.net)>



I have a 377 on my Firefly. The provision 4 takes an "A" gearbox while the provision 8 takes a "B" gearbox(plus others). The Ski-doo snowmobiles have neither provision and you must use a belt reduction drive.



--------

Mike

Firefly





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367094#367094





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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:40 am Post subject: Re: rotax377

I've owned two early Firestars. The first one was built very light and ran a 377. Its climb performance was as good or better than the 2nd one which was built heavy and ran a 447. A suspect a light Firefly would have excellent performance with a 377. 



BTW, for reasons unknown to me, the 377 was far less persnickety regarding prop pitch and mixture tweaks to get proper EGT readings under various flight regimes, than the 447. I think others have had similar experience. If I didn't need the extra 5 hp, the 377 would be my preference.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: rotax377

Thanks for that Dennis I respect you opinion. Chris

 

  

 Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



    

From: Dennis Souder <flykolb(at)pa.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 11:34 PM

Subject: RE: Re: rotax377

      Chris,

  

 As best I can recall, there was not much difference between the 377 and 447.

  

 Dennis

  

  

   From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of chris davis

Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:35 AM

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: rotax377

  

   Thank you Mike



  How does the 377 perform ,what is your climb rate? take off distance etc / thanks again you are the first 377 flyer of any aircraft that  I have heard from! 



  Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



    From: mburdge39 <mburdge(at)windstream.net (mburdge(at)windstream.net)>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:12 PM

Subject: Re: rotax377



 

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "mburdge39" <mburdge(at)windstream.net (mburdge(at)windstream.net)>



I have a 377 on my Firefly. The provision 4 takes an "A" gearbox while the provision 8 takes a "B" gearbox(plus others). The Ski-doo snowmobiles have neither provision and you must use a belt reduction drive.



--------

Mike

Firefly





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367094#367094





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 [quote][b]

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: rotax377

Thanks Thom I will put that in my book !

 

  

 Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly



    

From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:40 AM

Subject: Re: rotax377

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



I've owned two early Firestars. The first one was built very light and ran a 377. Its climb performance was as good or  better than the 2nd one which was built heavy and ran a 447. A suspect a light Firefly would have excellent performance with a 377. 



BTW, for reasons unknown to me, the 377 was far less persnickety regarding prop pitch and mixture tweaks to get proper EGT readings under various flight regimes, than the 447. I think others have had similar experience. If I didn't need the extra 5 hp, the 377 would be my preference.



--------

Thom Riddle

Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Kolb Slingshot SS-021

Jabiru 2200A #1574

Tennessee Prop 64x32



Truth is what stands the test of experience.

- Albert Einstein





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 [quote][b]

gyrodude

Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Stanfield N.C.

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: Re: rotax377

I have a Firestar with a 377 on it. I'm a lightweight toping out at 135lb. The plane has all the power I will ever need. I'd say takeoff is about 100'. Throttle foward, tail up and it's ready to fly. Cruise is in the 50-60mph range. Fuel burn is 2.5-3 gal an hour at cruise. Steve Beatty at Airscrew Performance in Glendale, Arizona has 377's and parts. I started my ultralight career many years ago flying a Teratorn TA with a 377 on it. I've never had a problem with the 377.

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: rotax377

Dude, Thank you I think the 377 is the engine  for me I am around 200 lbs but the Firefly is quite a bit lighter than the Firestar. What is your rate of climb? I flew a 330 lb Firestar KXP  for about 10 years with a 503 single carb the climb rate was over 1000ft/min jus wondering about a comparison . thanks again Chris

From: gyrodude <gsafrit1(at)carolina.rr.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:55 PM

Subject: Re: rotax377

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "gyrodude" <gsafrit1(at)carolina.rr.com (gsafrit1(at)carolina.rr.com)>

I have a Firestar with a 377 on it. I'm a lightweight toping out at 135lb. The plane has all the power I  will ever need. I'd say takeoff is about 100'. Throttle foward, tail up and it's ready to fly. Cruise is in the 50-60mph range. Fuel burn is 2.5-3 gal an hour at cruise. Steve Beatty at Airscrew Performance in Glendale, Arizona has 377's and parts. I started my ultralight career many years ago flying a Teratorn TA with a 377 on it. I've never had a problem with the 377.

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 [quote][b]

wakataka

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 48

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: rotax377

I've just recently purchased an original model Firestar with a 377. Empty weight is about 325# and I weigh about 200#. I need to take some pitch out of the prop because the engine is only turning about 6100 rpm at full throttle, but I'm still getting better than 600 feet per minute on climb. It's the smoothest running 2-stroke I've ever flown. Also, it runs cool compared to a 447. Even in the current over-propped condition CHT is about 315 in cruise and never exceeds 400 in climb out. On cross country flights, my fuel burn is just slightly more than my buddy who flies a 277. From my experience so far, I don't believe I would want to trade it for a 447.

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There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: rotax377

You don't say what your engine's EGT's are running, but if you take out some pitch your CHT will go down. Is your full throttle reading on climb or in level flight? If you're getting that RPM in climb you might want to consider just leaving it alone. The numbers you're getting are very similar to the last 447 I did the break in and first flights on. 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:44 PM, wakataka <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "wakataka" <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)>

  

 I've just recently purchased an original model Firestar with a 377. Empty weight is about 325# and I weigh about 200#. I need to take some pitch out of the prop because the engine is only turning about 6100 rpm at full throttle, but I'm still getting better than 600 feet per minute on climb. It's the smoothest running 2-stroke I've ever flown. Also, it runs cool compared to a 447. Even in the current over-propped condition CHT is about 315 in cruise and never exceeds 400 in climb out. On cross country flights, my fuel burn is just slightly more than my buddy who flies a 277. From my experience so far, I don't believe I would want to trade it for a 447.

  

 --------

 There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

 

 Mark Twain

 

 

 

 

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