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Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Hello All.

Europa 914 Tri gear, Speed 125 kts in level flight, to keep the ball in the centre i have to hold on left rudder.

The Rudder has a fixed Trim Tab which servo,s the rudder to the left ( same as holding left rudder on)

But to maintain the ball in the centre i have to hold on more left rudder on and hold the stick to the right,

If i look out at my left Aileron i can see its about the thickness of the tip trailing edge down.

So i need more lift on the left wing to maintain lateral level. ( How can i achieve this ?)

1. If i put a fixed trim tab on the right aileron it will servo raise the aileron and keep the wings level, but i will have constant adverse drag 

maybe only a very small amount, Also will a fixed aileron tab effect the mass balance of the ailerons, ( its only 4â€ x 1 1/2â€ of very thin alloy plate)

2. If i fix a Tab to the left flap outer edge, could i generate sufficient extra lift to compensate, so the ailerons remain in line (neutral).



Alan

bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Alan, 

       

       What I did to correct the same problem was to put a stop in to       keep the port flap down sightly when fully retracted. Mine is a       mono so a bit different to the Tri gear to achieve. It certainly       worked for me and had not effect on performance.

       

       For aileron trim to balance between one up and fully loaded I have       a small bungee cord from the lower part of the stick to the tunnel.       I only need this when one up as fully loaded my plane is balanced.

       

       ZK CHV

       Mono 914 Airmaster

       1020hrs

       

       And just for interest, yesterday I attended the first flight of a       DeHavilland Mosquito FB26 at Ardmore Airport in NZ.

       This is the only flying Mosquito in the world and was built       scratch from the original plans in New Zealand.

       

       Two Rolls Royce Merlins together makes a wonderful sound.

       

       

       [img]cid:part1.09000400.03080304(at)orcon.net.nz[/img]

       

       Sue and Bill Sisley

       On 30/09/2012 12:04 p.m., Alan Carter wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)



Hello All.

Europa 914 Tri gear, Speed 125 kts in level flight, to keep the ball in the centre i have to hold on left rudder.

The Rudder has a fixed Trim Tab which servo,s the rudder to the left ( same as holding left rudder on)

But to maintain the ball in the centre i have to hold on more left rudder on and hold the stick to the right,

If i look out at my left Aileron i can see its about the thickness of the tip trailing edge down.

So i need more lift on the left wing to maintain lateral level. ( How can i achieve this ?)

1. If i put a fixed trim tab on the right aileron it will servo raise the aileron and keep the wings level, but i will have constant adverse drag 

maybe only a very small amount, Also will a fixed aileron tab effect the mass balance of the ailerons, ( its only 4â€ x 1 1/2â€ of very thin alloy plate)

2. If i fix a Tab to the left flap outer edge, could i generate sufficient extra lift to compensate, so the ailerons remain in line (neutral).



Alan





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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Bill & Others,



Dang! I was hoping that would be Ardmore, Oklahoma.  Would I love to see that Mosquito fly in person.



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 29, 2012, at 7:53 PM, bill <bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz (bill.sue(at)orcon.net.nz)> wrote:

                   Alan, 

       

<Snip>

       

       ZK CHV

       Mono 914 Airmaster

       1020hrs

       

       And just for interest, yesterday I attended the first flight of a       DeHavilland Mosquito FB26 at Ardmore Airport in NZ.

       This is the only flying Mosquito in the world and was built       scratch from the original plans in New Zealand.

       

       Two Rolls Royce Merlins together makes a wonderful sound.

       

       

       <548234_422729257784507_537658472_n.jpg>

       

       Sue and Bill Sisley

europa471

Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 35

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Bob

       

       Maybe you will one day. I believe it is owned by an American so he       will take it home eventually.

       

       Meanwhile have a look at this and others.

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7vQOY3d89JE

       

       Regards

       

       Lance Sandford

       

       

       

       On 30/09/12 12:02, Robert Borger wrote:

     

     [quote]              Bill & Others,       

       

       Dang! I was hoping that would be Ardmore, Oklahoma.  Would I         love to see that Mosquito fly in person.

       

                                                      Blue skies & tailwinds,

                   Bob Borger

                     Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

                     Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt                     AEIO-320 EXP

                     3705 Lynchburg Dr.

                     Corinth, TX  76208-5331

                     Cel: 817-992-1117

                     rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

                   

                 

                      

         

       

     [b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Hi Sue and Bill, Howdy Bob.  

What a lovely country you live in NZ, i visited a few years ago and it brought back memory's of Old England , that a compliment.

My favourite Aeroplane, nothing could catch it in WW2, and the later version had a pressurized cockpit, very tricky on one engine go around.

My neighbour now 95 was a Mossy Pilot, so i know a little about them.

We had one over here but crashed just after completion, over here they get the Who you Knows to fly them, and Not the What you Knows so they crash.

Hope that's not the case in NZ.



My Trim, Yes a little bit of differential on the Flap would do it, but i don,t know how to do it ?, as far as i know there is a Cross Bar into which the pins on each flap locate into, so both move together,

so if say i physically restricted one flap slightly it would twist the cross bar slight, not good, relocating the actual flap bracket and pin is OK, but i am not up to that expertise. 

So i was considering a fixed trim tab on the Flaps outer trailing edge but would just the tab generate enough lift,?? ( i can manage to make and glue or should i say bond a tab on)

I find i need this left rudder with one or two up 

The rubber Bungee , is that,s just from the control stick to the centre tunnel, to hold the stick slight over is that right. A fixed aileron tab would do this, but i suppose a Bungee may be adjustable 

Simple but maybe practical.



Alan

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 222

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

<<..if say i physically restricted one flap slightly it would twist the

cross bar slight, not good,>>



That situation is already built in to the design, because the actuating horn

welded to the cross bar is located off centre. Which (due to the elasticity

of the cross bar) results in the cross bar twisting and the port side

retracting slightly ahead of the s'bd side. So a thicker stop on the port

side will help to counter this when the flaps are in the retracted position.



Duncan McF.



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Lance,



Wonderful!  Thanks!



 Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

 

 

On Sep 30, 2012, at 3:34 AM, Lance Sandford <sandford(at)melbpc.org.au (sandford(at)melbpc.org.au)> wrote:

                   Bob

       

       Maybe you will one day. I believe it is owned by an American so he       will take it home eventually.

       

       Meanwhile have a look at this and others.

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7vQOY3d89JE

       

       Regards

       

       Lance Sandford

       

       

       

       On 30/09/12 12:02, Robert Borger wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Bill & Others,       

       

       Dang! I was hoping that would be Ardmore, Oklahoma.  Would I         love to see that Mosquito fly in person.

       

                                                      Blue skies & tailwinds,

                   Bob Borger

phillik747

Joined: 04 Apr 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Birminham, AL USA

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

I remember talking to Bud about this a few months ago and couldn't remember if I saw it somewhere else or not. However I did a quick search and found this post on www.europaowners.com 



This should help get you in the right direction.  (no pun intended) :p



 	  Bud Yerly wrote: 	
		  Adjust the flap which is up too far with the set screw in the baggage

bay (Custom Flight Mod) or by adding a shim to the back of the baggage

bay and the flap tube through the hole in the side of the aircraft with

thin wedges to shim the flaps 1/32nd of an inch to correct roll. 	




http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=80559&g2_imageViewsIndex=1



Kyle

_________________
Kyle
Europa Tri-gear (under construction)

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Hi Kyle.

Read your link.

Adjust the flap which is up too far with the set screw in the baggage 

bay (Custom Flight Mod) or by adding a shim to the back of the baggage 

bay and the flap tube through the hole in the side of the aircraft with 

thin wedges to shim the flaps 1/32nd of an inch to correct roll. Right 

flap down rolls right. Go fly. When roll is cured you may need to 

adjust the aileron to match. But wait, most likely, then it needs the 

flap to be trimmed again for less deflection due to the aileron 

trimming, or because you made the airplane with very little friction in 

your roll system, you may see both ailerons now evenly up or down as 

appropriate. Go fly again. Test trim, then re-do stall series. 



I have just purchased the Aircraft, have not had the wings off yet, so as your might expect, a Bungee or Fixed tab is easiest for me.

Can you or any one, explain in more detail about the Flap 1/32 shim, pretty thin shim, i am willing to try if i knew how to do it,

I need the aeroplane to Roll more to the Right

.

"thin wedges to shim the flaps 1/32nd of an inch to correct roll. Right 

flap down rolls right" also Don,t understand this bit about roll right,



Alan

phillik747

Joined: 04 Apr 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Birminham, AL USA

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Alan,



My plane is still in the process of being built so I haven't the real-world experience with this fix.  If you look at the photo in the link it is showing the flap tube on the port side of the aircraft. You will see this when you remove the wings.  The next photo shows the flap adjustment screw.  By adding a shim to the tube or the inside of the rear bulkhead of the lower baggage bay (the part that comes in contact with the flap tube) you are forcing the port flap to not retract all the way.  This would cause an increase in lift on the port side.  From what I understand it doesn't take much since the flap is so large compared to the aileron. 



Just my thoughts here, again no experience. The screw is probably a better solution for tuning the amount of deflection needed due to just adjusting the amount the screw protrudes and rests on the flap tube verses adding shims.  



If I were you, just taking ownership of a finished aircraft, Iâ€™d follow Budâ€™s instructions from step 1 (found on the link above).  Try to determine what is causing the right yaw movement and see if there is a more efficient fix before â€œcreating more drag the counter the other.â€



Kyle

_________________
Kyle
Europa Tri-gear (under construction)

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Fixed Aileron Trim Tab

Thanks Kyle.

Hope your building is going well.

I will have a look at the flap bar next time i am up at the field, I see the photo,s now, Think this Flap adjustment screw is a mod and not on my aircraft, and it would would work well, but a shim stuck there would be easier i guess.

If it all looks to complicated  i will fix a tab at least it will hold the wings level.



All the best

Alan

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