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N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: New to List

I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete.  I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360.



After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice.  In particular:



1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler?  The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air.



2.  Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward.  Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it easier to get in than it looks?  In addition, do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots?



3.  I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that lots of people have modified the standard system.  Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was the result?



4.  Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate?  My manual refers to it, but it seems to be missing from my documentation.



5.  For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation?  It would be both expensive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage.  I am considering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone else's experience.



6.  My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender, i am skinny!).  Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit in practice?



Thank you for any advice that you can offer.



Jerry Fisher

daseitz(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: New to List

---- Jeremy Fisher <jffisher(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete.  I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360.

 

 After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice.  In particular:

 

 1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler?  The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air.


	




I have a 914 without the intercooler. I have no problems down in Florida. Although i do not try to do a lot of high performance climbs for extended periods. I have had it to 14000ft and no problems climbing at 350 to 400FPM at 75% power.



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 5.  For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation?  It would be both expensive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage.  I am considering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone else's experience.


	


I installed a Dynon autopilot 2 axis.  Did not go by any existing design. I put the pitch servo in the tail right behind the plywood guides for the ballance weight. Built a mount and glassed to the bottom of fuse. Made two alum plates to extend the pitch arms that the ballance arm and the pitch tube attach to by about two inches. Attached a cotrol tube from the extension to the servo. Works very well and very tight. I needed weight in the tail for ballance anyway. The aileron servo I actually put in the recess that the right wing spar goes in just under the spar and used a short tube to where the rod end connects to the arm that comes up from the passenger tube. used a longer bolt and put both rod ends together. A little tight to get it in but only had to make one bracket to hold the servo.





 	  Quote: 	
		   

 6.  My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender, i am skinny!).  Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit in practice?


	




I have the new style body with the wide mod from the factory. I have never been in an old style. The only difference i would think is that there would not be as big of a ledge sticking out to hurt your shoulder or upper arm



Dean Seitz

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: New to List

Jeremy, for what it is worth I wouldn't bother with an 

inter cooler . I have flown from the Arctic to the Sahara 

with my 914 working nicely without one. I am far from 

skinny, at least by European standards and 6' 2" but am 

very comfortable in the standard XS cabin. My advice would 

be to keep it simple and above all to keep it as light as 

possible. Check out the weights of aircraft on the Europa 

Club website and you will find a range of 150 lbs or more 

between the lightest and heaviest 914 XSs, and there is no 

doubt about which end of the spectrum will perform 

better.have never known any of my friends have difficulty 

getting into either a trigear or a mono and haven't seen 

anyone with a step.

          Although we can get a bit critical of the LAA at 

times it is worth saying that the fatal accident rate of 

LAA aircraft is much the same as UK certified aircraft, 

whereas the story with US experimentals is rather 

different.

         Happy building, David Joyce,G-XSDJ



On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 16:51:30 -0400

  Jeremy Fisher <jffisher(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<jffisher(at)gmail.com>

 

 I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most 

of the structure now complete.  I am based at an Airpark 

on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 

360.

 

 After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I 

have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any 

inputs or advice.  In particular:

 

 1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth 

the hassle to fit an intercooler?  The advice from the 

outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the 

engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of 

the inlet air.

 

 2.  Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward. 

 Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it 

easier to get in than it looks?  In addition, do you need 

to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to 

step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 

boots?

 

 3.  I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I 

know that lots of people have modified the standard 

system.  Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water 

cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was 

the result?

 

 4.  Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir 

mounting plate?  My manual refers to it, but it seems to 

be missing from my documentation.

 

 5.  For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, 

has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected 

to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as 

per the factory installation?  It would be both expensive 

and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build 

stage.  I am considering a couple of alternatives and 

would like to learn from anyone else's experience.

 

 6.  My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is 

slender, i am skinny!).  Do you find that widening the 

cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, 

or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit 

in practice?

 

 Thank you for any advice that you can offer.

 

 Jerry Fisher

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: New to List

Jerry



1) I have a 914 and my personal opinion is that I would not bother with the

intercooler.  



2) You need to learn how to get into a Europa via sitting on the head rest

but it become easy with a bit of practice.



3) The Laminova oil cooler has been used but is not approved for UK use as,

as far as I know, nobody here has asked to fit one in a Europa.



4) The pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate was omitted from some

editions of the manual.  You will find it on the Club web site

(http://www.theeuropaclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/OilTankBkt.pdf).

Have a look at the other known corrections.



5)  This is possible and is documented on the Club web site

(http://www.theeuropaclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/12708-Alt-Hold.pdf)

.  It is not particularly difficult to remove the CS10 cross tube to replace

it or weld on a new horn.  You will also be checking that the original build

was done correctly.  If you decide to go this way I can proved more detailed

instructions.



6) My personal opinion is that Mod 67 is not worth doing for the 20mm of

extra width it provides.  Sit in the aircraft and try it.  Note were the

door sill touches your shoulder.



Spend some time on the Club web site for more information on everything on

Europa building.



 

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:47 am Post subject: New to List

On 10/03/2012 10:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth the hassle to

 fit an intercooler?


	


I have an intercooler but I found it not worth it. In the standard

cooling configuration it is highly doubtfull the intercooler will work

anyway, as there is hardly any pressure drop over the intercooler for

the cooling air (the exit is in the cowling, which is not exactly a low

pressure area). Even after reworking the whole cooling system, which is

a major project, and getting enough pressure drop over the intercooler,

the result is still hardly noticable. Also, the intercooler won't do

anything good during the cruise (in fact, it just creates drag) so it

can only beneficial during take off. As the 914 can take off in a

shorter distance than needed to land, it is questionable whether even a

shorter take off roll would be of any significance. At the same time,

the intercooler adds weight, adds drag (you can't get air through it for

free) and makes relocation of the oil tank to a more cumbersome location

necessary (at the port side there is less room, and the hose routing is

more complicated) So, if I would start all over again, I would probably

leave the intercooler out, it is not worth it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   3.  I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that

 lots of people have modified the standard system.  Has anyone used

 the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use,

 and what was the result?


	


I have the Laminova heat exchanger with great results, but I have

entirely changed the rest of the cooling setup as well. Provided you

have a highly efficent water cooling, the Laminova has the benefit of

tightly coupling the oil temp to the water temp (reducing stress in the

engine) and allowing superfast oil warm up times without having to

resort to an oil thermostat. It also makes it less complicated to get an

efficent engine cooling; you only have to focus on getting the water

cooling working ok, designing a proper ducting for it, and have one cowl

flap to control both the temperature of the water and oil.

For the 914 you need the larger Laminova with a plug in the coolant

hole, there is a special light weight version of the Laminova availabe.

Beware, due to the tiny canals in the Laminova, you can't use the Evans

coolant. 50/50 works very well though.



Frans

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: New to List

I really want to thank the many people who answered my questions, you saved me a lot of time, and I learned what I wanted.  Very refreshing, not even the Lancair List was quite as quick in replying to questions.



I also appreciate the comment to keep it as standard as possible.  I really learned that lesson building the Lancair, which probably took twice as long as it could or should have, and it just got heavier!



In summary, I will leave the intercooler out initially, I will leave the cockpit width as is, I now have the missing oil reservoir mount template, and I got some excellent ideas for the autopilot mount.  I am still thinking about about a step like the RV-7 but in front of the wing as a possibility, probably for later.



Thanks to everyone.



Jerry

On Oct 3, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete.  I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360.

 

 After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice.  In particular:

 

 1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler?  The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air.

 

 2.  Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward.  Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it easier to get in than it looks?  In addition, do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots?

 

 3.  I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that lots of people have modified the standard system.  Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was the result?

 

 4.  Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate?  My manual refers to it, but it seems to be missing from my documentation.

 

 5.  For those of you who are not cursed with the LAA, has anyone installed an autopilot pitch servo connected to the system without changing the lateral pitch tube as per the factory installation?  It would be both expensive and fairly difficult for me to change it at this build stage.  I am considering a couple of alternatives and would like to learn from anyone else's experience.

 

 6.  My wife and i are both pretty skinny (she is slender, i am skinny!).  Do you find that widening the cockpit at the shoulders as per the Mod List is worth it, or do you not have any problem with the standard cockpit in practice?

 

 Thank you for any advice that you can offer.

 

 Jerry Fisher

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: New to List

Jeremy,

You will never use a step, or step on the wing. The easiest way to get into the Europa is to sit on the wing, then swing in your right leg, push yourself up on the door sill, and bring in the left leg. Reverse when you get out. Find a completed Europa and try it.

Karl

[quote] From: jffisher(at)gmail.com

 Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 16:11:34 -0400

 To: Europa-List(at)matronics.com

 I really want to thank the many people who answered my questions, you saved me a lot of time, and I learned what I wanted.  Very refreshing, not even the Lancair List was quite as quick in replying to questions.

 I also appreciate the comment to keep it as standard as possible.  I really learned that lesson building the Lancair, which probably took twice as long as it could or should have, and it just got heavier!

 In summary, I will leave the intercooler out initially, I will leave the cockpit width as is, I now have the missing oil reservoir mount template, and I got some excellent ideas for the autopilot mount.  I am still thinking about about a step like the RV-7 but in front of the wing as a possibility, probably for later.

 Thanks to everyone.

 Jerry

 On Oct 3, 2012, at 4:51 PM, Jeremy Fisher wrote:

 > I recently took over a Europa XS project that has most of the structure now complete.  I am based at an Airpark on Cape Cod in the US, and previously built a Lancair 360.

 > 

 > After going through the aircraft and all of the books, I have a couple of questions, and would be grateful for any inputs or advice.  In particular:

 > 

 > 1.  I just bought a refurbished Rotax 914.  Is it worth the hassle to fit an intercooler?  The advice from the outfit that refurbished it is not to bother, as the engine will adjust for any issues with the temperature of the inlet air.

 > 

 > 2.  Access to the cockpit appears to be pretty awkward.  Has anyone tried to install a step to assist, or is it easier to get in than it looks?  In addition, do you need to reinforce the wing upper surface where you have to step to get in, or is it strong enough to take size 10 boots?

 > 

 > 3.  I am far from impressed by the cooling set up, and I know that lots of people have modified the standard system.  Has anyone used the Laminova oil to water cooler, and if so, which size did you use, and what was the result?

 > 

 > 4.  Where can I find the pattern for the oil reservoir mounting plate?  My manual refers to it, but it seems to be missing from my documentation

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:49 am Post subject: New to List

Jerry, you will find the list like this virtually all the time, many many

people willing

To share their experiences and knowledge as they can to help you get your

baby flying ASAP

I have been building for 5 years, almost ready for the paint, and have had

quite a few questions

Answered for me.



Regards and good building



craig



--

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: Re: New to List

Frans,



I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So  I suppose the oil temp  is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right?  What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power? 



Remi Guerner

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: New to List

Remi,

 

you did not ask me but I will comment. 

 

I have had a Laminova in use since 2007 in my Europa (912S) over 330 flight hours. I am 100% happy. I installed Laminova because I did not like an idea about a separate oil-cooler. The oil temp follow always the water temp. When the water temp rises, the oil temp is bit lower, but it follows the water temp slowly and vice versa.

  

Climbing with full power I have typically the oil temp around 115C. When very hot (+30C) and climbing continuously to the FLs, it can be near 130C but never over so far.

 

It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. With it, I am able to make looong idle dives near or at VNE (which I love) and still have water & oil temps well in limits.

  

Cheers, 

 

Raimo

OH-XRT

Finland

 

 

 

2012/10/5 Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

  

 Frans,

 

 I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So  I suppose the oil temp  is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right?  What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power?

  

 Remi Guerner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

  [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: New to List

On 10/05/2012 02:15 PM, Remi Guerner wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I

 understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the

 coolant exclusively. So  I suppose the oil temp  is higher than the

 coolant temp all the time. Am I right?


	


That's right. Well, almost. With just the Laminova I get a delta-T of

10C. So, you can get your coolant up to 110C and the oil will stabilize

at 120C. Note that this is rock steady, if the oil would climb to 130C

the delta-T would double, hence the cooling capacity would double. So it

is self stabilizing; you will not see much oil temp variation if you use

a Laminova. However, I wanted a smaller delta-T, so at the exit of the

Laminova I have a very small auxillary oil cooler to drop the oil temp

with 5C. Note that this is not really required, but I don't want to cool

the coolant more than necessary. I prefer to maintain an oil temp of

115C so this way I can allow the coolant to get to 110C. Otherwise I

would have to keep the coolant at 105C, but this requires more cooling

air flow and thus increases drag. Also, I like to run the engine at a

higher temperature as this ensures a cleaner combustion and higher

efficiency.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What oil temp do you get when

 in a sustained climb at max continuous power?


	


Full power or cruise power don't matter. With the cowl flap I can get

any temperature I want. I usually pin the coolant to 110C, so the oil is

then 115C. This is also true when climbing from sea level to FL95 with

100% power all the way up. I always maintain 110C coolant and 115C oil.



During startup I open the cowl flap 1cm. I also open the intercooler

valve. The intercooler extis inside the cowling so this provides more

cowling air flow while still standing or taxiing. Flow through the

coolant radiator is then minimized (the intercooler air flow increases

the pressure behind the coolant radiator) and warm-up is fast. The oil

is warmed up by the rapidly heating coolant. Within a few minutes I have

everything heated up sufficiently to take off.



During the run-up I open up the cowl flap halfway (this is usually

sufficient, unless it is extremely hot) and keep the intercooler valve

fully open.



When I level off for cruise I close the intercooler (since it is now

useless and it uses the same cowl flap exit as the coolant radiator) and

I close the cowl flap to about 1cm. Closing the intercooler increases

the flow through the coolant radiator, but by closing the cowl flap I

reduce the flow to what is necessary to maintain a coolant temp of 110C.

This setting also provides minimal aerodynamic drag. During flight I can

fine tune the temperatures with the cowl flap setting.



When descending for landing I open up the intercooler valve. This

reduces the flow through the coolant radiator, so the temperature

doesn't drop too fast. At the same time it increases the flow through

the cowling, to draw as much as possible the accumulated heat away, to

prepare it for the anticipated full stop. Also, opening the intercooler

valve ensures that I have full boost power available in case of a go around.



After touch down but before shutting down the engine I open the cowl

flap fully and allow the coolant and oil temp to drop. That's right, on

the ground I have sufficient cooling to get the temperatures out of the

green arc... on the underside of it.



The Laminova offers many advantages:

1) Eliminating the oil radiator and its associated air duct workings. It

also means more freedom in positioning of the cooler and hose routings.

2) Eliminating the oil thermostat as the oil is now warmed up by the

coolant (which is even faster than the oil thermostat can achieve).

3) Faster warm up times. Oil is actively heated up by the coolant.

4) Tight coupling of coolant and oil temperatures. This reduces stress

on the engine and makes temperature management easier.

5) Self stabilizing effect. Suppose the coolant is 110C and the oil is

120C. If the oil temp would increase 1C this is an increase of 10% of

the cooling capacity. With air cooling instead (20C ambient temperature)

this would only increase the delta-T and thus cooling capacity with 1%.

With the Laminova the throttle setting has no significant effect on oil

temperature.



There are two disadvantages as well:

1) Loss of coolant means also loss of oil cooling capacity. Loss of

coolant means you are going to land asap anyway, so this is hardly a

disadvantage.

2) You can't use Evans coolant. The passages in the Laminova are just

too thin.



Frans

N6ZY

Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Posts: 31

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:01 am Post subject: New to List

Raimo,



Do you have any photos of the Laminova unit installed?

Jerry

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:

[quote]Remi,

 

you did not ask me but I will comment. 

 

I have had a Laminova in use since 2007 in my Europa (912S) over 330 flight hours. I am 100% happy. I installed Laminova because I did not like an idea about a separate oil-cooler. The oil temp follow always the water temp. When the water temp rises, the oil temp is bit lower, but it follows the water temp slowly and vice versa.

  

Climbing with full power I have typically the oil temp around 115C. When very hot (+30C) and climbing continuously to the FLs, it can be near 130C but never over so far.

 

It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. With it, I am able to make looong idle dives near or at VNE (which I love) and still have water & oil temps well in limits.

  

Cheers, 

 

Raimo

OH-XRT

Finland

 

 

 

2012/10/5 Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

  

 Frans,

 

 I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So  I suppose the oil temp  is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right?  What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power?

  

 Remi Guerner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

   	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:06 am Post subject: New to List

On 10/05/2012 04:31 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot

 understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat.


	


A cowl flap has the same effect.

But a cowl flap has the additional advantage that you block off the

unnecessary air flow through the radiator. Dragging air through a

radiator comes with an aerodynamic penalty.

With a water thermostat, you are blocking the water flow, but still have

the full amount of aerodynamic drag.



For the rest I agree fully that I don't see how you can have proper

temperature control without either a thermostat or cowl flap.



Too bad that the intended air race between you and me at Texel didn't go

through.

We were busy amusing ourselves with some other things, see:



http://youtu.be/rP2GkueyFBo

http://youtu.be/YMhiLSEjGKE

http://youtu.be/s5bYVhaIJ0E



In the afternoon we had to go home, we wanted to say goodbye to you and

your lovely daughter but we couldn't find you anywhere. 



Next time we do some racing! Maybe in Finland if the weather cooperates!



Frans

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: New to List

Frans and Raimo,

Thank you for your detailed answers regarding the Laminova.  So you are both running with oil and coolant temperatures close to the red lines. Keep in mind that high coolant temp/CHT reduce your margin against detonation and high oil temp reduces the viscosity and makes the oil to age quicker, both factors affecting the lubricant properties.

I would not be comfortable flying continuously with such high temperatures.

Remi

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: New to List

Remi,

 

please remember not any more reality with modern high-class oils AND it is better to get oil temp over +100C at least once during a flight to boil moisture out.

 My oil & water temps - as I thinks also Frans have - are always in the green arc. Some people think what cooler that better - that is not reality even with my wife.

 

Cheers, Raimo

 2012/10/6 Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

 

 Frans and Raimo,

 Thank you for your detailed answers regarding the Laminova.  So you are both running with oil and coolant temperatures close to the red lines. Keep in mind that high coolant temp/CHT reduce your margin against detonation and high oil temp reduces the viscosity and makes the oil to age quicker, both factors affecting the lubricant properties.

  I would not be comfortable flying continuously with such high temperatures.

 Remi

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384771#384771

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

  [quote][b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: New to List

Hi all,



Just to add to Fran's & Raimo's data.  For a day 30c day I typically see coolant/oil at 105/110 in cruise.  With the last round of cowling modifications I can now cruise climb at 30" / 100kts to 10,000' before I reach 115c on my coolant.

 

Although I am some what happy with these numbers I am looking to be able to reliably do this with the OAT at 35c and I haven't achieved this goal yet.



I am using a C45 x 180 Laminova.



Regards, Paul

  [quote][b]

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: New to List

Hi Jeremy

 

I took this photo today after an interesting CO-flight. Shit happens regularly. 

 

My Laminova locates very low behind the engine middle between the pedals on the firewall "shelf" under the airbox and it is very difficult to see w/o taking at least an airbox off (I didn´t). Over it you can see an electric (mains 230VAC) water heater for winter operations. Very near - a bit upp and port side -  there is also a water thermostat. 

  

I hope this helps.

 

- Raimo

 

 

2012/10/5 Jeremy Fisher <jffisher(at)gmail.com (jffisher(at)gmail.com)>

  	  Quote: 	
		  Raimo,



 Do you have any photos of the Laminova unit installed?

Jerry

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Remi,

 

you did not ask me but I will comment. 

  

I have had a Laminova in use since 2007 in my Europa (912S) over 330 flight hours. I am 100% happy. I installed Laminova because I did not like an idea about a separate oil-cooler. The oil temp follow always the water temp. When the water temp rises, the oil temp is bit lower, but it follows the water temp slowly and vice versa.

   

Climbing with full power I have typically the oil temp around 115C. When very hot (+30C) and climbing continuously to the FLs, it can be near 130C but never over so far.

 

It is better you know I have also a water thermostat - I really cannot understand an idea about water cooling w/o a water thermostat. With it, I am able to make looong idle dives near or at VNE (which I love) and still have water & oil temps well in limits.

   

Cheers, 

 

Raimo

OH-XRT

Finland

 

 

 

2012/10/5 Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>

   

 Frans,

 

 I am just curious about the Laminova Oil-water exchanger. I understand that in your installation, the oil is cooled by the coolant exclusively. So  I suppose the oil temp  is higher than the coolant temp all the time. Am I right?  What oil temp do you get when in a sustained climb at max continuous power?

   

 Remi Guerner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384686#384686

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

  info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)  

   	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

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-- 

Terveisin,

Raimo  Toivio



RWM-SYSTEMS

"älykästä informaatiotekniikkaa vuodesta  1980" 



37500  Lempäälä

FINLAND



p. 03 - 3753 777

f. 03 - 3753 100



www.rwm.fi

 info(at)rwm.fi (info(at)rwm.fi)

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