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Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

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samira.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

A few weeks ago a good friend of mine

had an engine failure over the Strait of

Georgia. His aircraft was a RV-6 style

homebuilt with fixed conventional undercarriage.



According to some witnesses on shore he did

everything perfectly right and his aircraft

did not flip over. Both occupants got out

in time and the plane sank very quickly

to the bottom of the ocean at around 300 feet.

Still they had to spend 25 minutes in the cold

water until they got finally rescued.



Now here come some questions:



In the case the CJ engine quits over open water

what would be the safest landing configuration?



a) canopies open or closed?



b) gills open or closed?



c) oil-cooler open or closed?



d) flap up or down?



e) should the tail touch the water first or the belly?



f)  any other ideas or thoughts?

Your input on this matter is highly appreciated.



cheers



Elmar

jland(at)popeandland.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

A parachute!



Thanks, Jay



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:03 AM, "Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer" <samira.h(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 what would be the safest landing configuration?

markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:49 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy

open.  I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would

allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance

of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity

to dig in.  Gills open or closed doesn't matter.  The first impact will wipe

them out like toothpicks.  Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset,

kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy

bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact.  If the

airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and

head for the light.  If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear,

cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles.



Mark Davis

Dilbert Dunker Survivor

9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in

front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such)

Survivor

--

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

I would put the flaps down to allow for a slower approach speed. E=MC squared



)



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy

 open.  I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would

 allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance

 of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity

 to dig in.  Gills open or closed doesn't matter.  The first impact will wipe

 them out like toothpicks.  Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset,

 kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy

 bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact.  If the

 airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and

 head for the light.  If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear,

 cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles.

 

 Mark Davis

 Dilbert Dunker Survivor

 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in

 front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such)

 Survivor

 

 

 --

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

F= MA







On Oct 6, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Richard Hess wrote:



[quote] 

 

 I would put the flaps down to allow for a slower approach speed. E=MC squared

 

 )

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 On Oct 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy

> open.  I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would

> allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance

> of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity

> to dig in.  Gills open or closed doesn't matter.  The first impact will wipe

> them out like toothpicks.  Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset,

> kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy

> bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact.  If the

> airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and

> head for the light.  If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear,

> cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles.

> 

> Mark Davis

> Dilbert Dunker Survivor

> 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in

> front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such)

> Survivor

> 

> 

> --

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

As Jay Said if altitude permits otherwise gear up on rough terrain. Ie. anything other than prepared runway surface grass or pavement. Pastures, plowed field with or without terraces you just don't know if the surface is free or gofer holes and is it soft or firm. Dig the nose wheel in and You better hope you have a roll bar.

Doc

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 6, 2012, at 7:42 AM, "Jay Land" <jland(at)popeandland.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 A parachute!

 Thanks, Jay

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:03 AM, "Elmar & Manuela Hegenauer" <samira.h(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

> 

> what would be the safest landing configuration?

threein60(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

My experience, which is from real life, dsays not to touch the flaps until you are right over your landing zone.  The aircraft it's dirty enough and you hit the flaps with a dead engine you will have to increase your glide slope significantly.



Larry Pine

N8181C

CJ6/m14p



 

Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

--> Yak-List message posted by: Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net>



F= MA







On Oct 6, 2012, at 7:53 AM, Richard Hess wrote:



[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: Richard Hess <hess737(at)aol.com>

 

 I would put the flaps down to allow for a slower approach speed. E=MC squared

 

 )

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 On Oct 6, 2012, at 9:47 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:

 

> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>

> 

> As I recall my Dilbert Dunker training, the Navy would recommend canopy

> open.  I don't recall anything about flaps but I would think flaps up would

> allow a little more nose up attitude on touchdown to allow a better chance

> of the airplane skipping a time or two before the nose has the opportunity

> to dig in.  Gills open or closed doesn't matter.  The first impact will wipe

> them out like toothpicks.  Tighten your harness, get rid of your headset,

> kneeboards, other potential cockpit FOD, put your left hand on the canopy

> bow or some other place to help brace yourself for the impact.  If the

> airplane flips over, wait until the bubble subside, release your harness and

> head for the light.  If you're lucky enough to do it at night, swim clear,

> cup your hands over your mouth, exhale and follow the bubbles.

> 

> Mark Davis

> Dilbert Dunker Survivor

> 9D5 Multiplace Simulator Trainer (Don't call it a helo dunker at least in

> front of one former Vietnam POW who went nuts when I referred to it as such)

> Survivor

> 

> 

> --

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Ditching a Nanchang

What did Sully do in the Hudson? 



The gills will go but I'd open them.  The oil cooler door does not matter.  I'd leave flaps and all up.  Canopy open.  Fod tossed out on way down.  Helmet secured. Comm cable unplugged.  If time, I'd get out of the parachute too and just strap in with the harness.  Once out activate the life vest I'm sure you are wearing to fly over water!



Chang Driver

Adrian Coop Cooper

Joined: 02 Feb 2010
Posts: 37
Location: Vancouver, BC

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ditching a Nanchang

Hi Elmar.

That is a very good question for those of us living in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest. I met your friend a couple of weeks ago within days of his Ditching. I was dismayed to hear that his passenger got out of the cockpit okay but got his foot trapped in the wing where the fixed gear had ripped a panel out of the upper wing. Fortunately he was able to dislodge the foot moments before the plane (a modified Zeniar I believe) sank. Which causes me to reiterate previously mentioned items. Strap in very tightly, jettison all FOD and any cables that could trap you, ie headset/helmet/iPad etc cables. Unplug audio as soon as you have broadcast your May Day, briefed your passenger and Squawked 7700. Yes, open the canopy and brace yourself on the canopy bow, one hand on the bow and the other on the stick, feet off the rudder pedals at the last moment. Lock the canopy open so it doesn't try to close on impact. Gear up for sure. I would leave the flaps up but probably close the oil door.

Meanwhile, sign up for Brian Webster's ("Bri the Dunker Guy") course. One of the best courses I have ever taken. Bryan's course covers underwater egress and puts you in a mock up cockpit which is shot into the water and rigged to flip over upside down. Very, very real. Don't worry, he has divers in the water to assist if needed.

On the question of Parachutes, even though I have hundreds of Sky Dives, I am not sure that is a very good option over the water, unless you are on fire or important bits are falling off. If you do decide to jump, cut away as soon as you enter the water and swim away carefully so as not to get caught in the lines, carry a knife. If you are fortunate enough to bring the plane to a gentle stop on the surface, discard the parachute rig as soon as you climb out onto the wing. They can absorb a very large amount of water and pull you under. Remember not to inflate your PFD until out of the plane - especially if you do cartwheel. You don't want any buoyancy until you are clear of the plane. It's hard to get out of an upside down cockpit with an inflated PFD which wants to push you back into the plane. 

Should you have to ditch, hope for smooth water, otherwise all my Airline courses emphasize alighting between the troughs. Preferable behind the crest of a wave. As I suggested, take the Underwater Egress Training course.

Best regards and try to keep your feet dry.

Coop

_________________
Coop

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: Ditching a Nanchang "Part II"

Good post Coop. Might put my hands on the belt release. Hands up on the canopy bow may lose fingers if the canopy releases and slams forward. A canopy  breaker tool would be handy too! a waterman with the plyers tip sharpened to a point will work to break the plexiglass if the canopy jams closed.

Sorry did see your first post about this being a water ditching. If you bailout over water inflate your LPU manually before entering the water. Unless you have a water activated LPU. Don't panic if the chute comes down on top of you. Don't kick your legs because you will tangle them in the risers. Grab a seam and just over hand crawl along the seam until you get to the edge of the canopy. Then cut yourself free of risers and let the chute float and sink away.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Oct 6, 2012, at 6:22 PM, "Adrian Coop Cooper" <cooperairracing(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Elmar.

 That is a very good question for those of us living in British Columbia and the Pacific Northwest. I met your friend a couple of weeks ago within days of his Ditching. I was dismayed to hear that his passenger got out of the cockpit okay but got his foot trapped in the wing where the fixed gear had ripped a panel out of the upper wing. Fortunately he was able to dislodge the foot moments before the plane (a modified Zeniar I believe) sank. Which causes me to reiterate previously mentioned items. Strap in very tightly, jettison all FOD and any cables that could trap you, ie headset/helmet/iPad etc cables. Unplug audio as soon as you have broadcast your May Day, briefed your passenger and Squawked 7700. Yes, open the canopy and brace yourself on the canopy bow, one hand on the bow and the other on the stick, feet off the rudder pedals at the last moment. Lock the canopy open so it doesn't try to close on impact. Gear up for sure. I would leave the flaps up but probably close t!

 he oil door.

 Meanwhile, sign up for Brian Webster's ("Bri the Dunker Guy") course. One of the best courses I have ever taken. Bryan's course covers underwater egress and puts you in a mock up cockpit which is shot into the water and rigged to flip over upside down. Very, very real. Don't worry, he has divers in the water to assist if needed.

 On the question of Parachutes, even though I have hundreds of Sky Dives, I am not sure that is a very good option over the water, unless you are on fire or important bits are falling off. If you do decide to jump, cut away as soon as you enter the water and swim away carefully so as not to get caught in the lines, carry a knife. If you are fortunate enough to bring the plane to a gentle stop on the surface, discard the parachute rig as soon as you climb out onto the wing. They can absorb a very large amount of water and pull you under. Remember not to inflate your PFD until out of the plane - especially if you do cartwheel. You don't want any buoyancy until you are clear of the plane. It's hard to get out of an upside down cockpit with an inflated PFD which wants to push you back into the plane. 

 Should you have to ditch, hope for smooth water, otherwise all my Airline courses emphasize alighting between the troughs. Preferable behind the crest of a wave. As I suggested, take the Underwater Egress Training course.

 Best regards and try to keep your feet dry.

 Coop

 

 --------

 Coop

 

 

 

 

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