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gcvisel

Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 11
Location: United States

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: Newbie Questions?

I'm looking at a Mark III Classic, with which to get my LSA ticket.

I have 50 hours toward my private 30+ years ago, but now the kids are

grown and gone and its time to fly again.  I was looking seriously at a

Quad City Challenger II, but am leaning more toward the side-by-side

layout of the Mark III as a training aircraft.



   Can anyone compare the two as a trainer aircraft?  



   The one I'm looking at has a Rotax 618 engine, which is no longer

sold.  Should I stay away?  Any major issues?



Thanks for any feedback!



Gerry Visel

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Newbie Questions?

Never flown a Challenger, but one of the guys in our club bought one several years ago. This guy flies everything for a living, and he described it as one of the worst flying airplanes he had ever flown. Back before I got my MKIII, the wife and I went to a Challenger dealer and tried one on. Unless you are slim and agile, you don't want to be in the back seat. Getting out is a media event. Funny Home Videos media...



The MKIII is not inherently stable, and requires active pilotage in all three axis at all times. Learn to fly in it and you will be good at flying anything. It will spoil you for flying other taildraggers, because it is the easiest taildragger to fly imaginable.

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: Newbie Questions?

Hi Jerry,



Hardly anyone on this list will mention the Challenger without spitting.



I disagree. I flew the Challenger with a 503 engine very happily for several 

years.It wandered a bit until the forward extension of the tailfin was 

fitted. That improved it a lot.It did everything I wanted .A selfstarter 

would have been nice but I could stand at the side with my left hand on the 

throttle and pull the cord easily. I never chocked the wheels.The flaperons 

worked to some extent but were more use in trimming the plane than as flaps. 

That didn`t matter as she would side  slip as though the wings had fallen 

off and recover immediately on kicking off the slip.The U/c survived 

unscathed through some really horrific landings/takeoffs from some appalling 

fields.. Unlike the Kolb which will put a bend in the u/c legs if you drop 

it in a bit heavily.The tricycle u/c made ground handling a doddle.

Unfortunately advancing age made getting in and out of the Challenger a bit 

difficult and I wanted a 4 stroke engine.and a bit more comfort.

I had admired the lines of the Kolb for years.and bought a Mark 3 Xtra with 

a Jabiru. The visibility is superb and the design well tried. The side by 

side cockpit with a lid on looks very desirable and comfortable.

I trained on a taildragger so the  change back from the Challenger was not a 

major consideration. Macho too.`Real pilots fly taildraggers` but I wish I 

hadn`t bothered. Trike u/c is superior in every way. No need for toe 

brakes.No problems taxiing in a crosswind etc.

It is nice flying side by side and certainly better for receiving 

instruction but if you fly mainly solo the decreased frontal area of the 

Challenger makes for better efficiency.If you are big the cockpit is a bit 

cramped. The big cockpit of the Kolb leaves plenty of room for maps, food 

and general storage if you intend doing extended X country trips.The doors 

make for easy access.



Unfortunately because of back problems I can no longer  do the ground 

handling, refuelling, maintenance etc and do not fly at all but if I was 

forty again  I would have a Challenger with a 4 stroke engine fitted. I 

loved the open cockpit. If I was seventy again I would probably have a Kolb 

Xtra but only if available with tricyle undercart.

This will probably provoke howls of disagreement on the list and will 

provide material for a new thread for weeks to come. Sift through the 

comments and you will learn a lot. Maybe even enough to make an informed 

decision.

Stick with the Kolb list whatever you do. They are a great bunch, helpful 

and knowledgeable.

Good luck



Pat

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Newbie Questions?

I think it is important to differentiate between the Long Wing Challenger and the Clipped Wing version. The Long Wing is much less responsive in roll than the clipped wing and with the enclosed canopy installed can be difficult to manage in windy situations, even with the horizontal stabilizer mods. For a given amount of power, the Challenger is faster than a MkIIIC (never flown an Xtra so I can't comment from personal experience). This is largely due to the engine being hidden somewhat behind the fuselage substantially reducing drag compared to Kolbs mostly above wing engine mounting. The Clipped wing Challenger is faster than the Long Wing and much more pleasant to fly. I've instructed in both a Challenger and MkIIIC and for instruction, I prefer the MkIII. 



For solo flight or with a passenger, I prefer the tandem seating configuration, except for long x-country flights. If you are interested in the tandem seating, I consider a Clipped Wing Challenger to be viable but Kolb's Firestar II, Slingshot, and Kolbra are better all around airplanes. Of these tandem seat Kolbs, the Kolbra is the only one with dual controls.

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

gcvisel

Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 11
Location: United States

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:34 am Post subject: Newbie Questions?

Â Â  Does anybody on the list here with a Mark III live around northern Illinois?Â  It sure would be nice to see one up close before investing...Â  Are there any support/dealers in the area?

 Â 

 Thanks,

 Gerry Visel

 Winnebago, near Rockford, IL

  [quote][b]

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koxxy

Joined: 19 Oct 2011
Posts: 28
Location: Beaverton, OR

Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: Newbie Questions?

As an alternative to the Challenger, you might also consider the Excalibur - reportedly the better flying plane. I looked at a kit under construction and liked it: adequate room in both seats, dual controls, amazing STOL performance, but the big wing is not that easy to take off, and there is virtually no baggage space.

  

For me, the question is how to store the plane between flights. Here in the NW, we don't have to worry too much about frost and snow, but it does rain a lot. If you have a hangar, a plane like the Challenger or Excalibur (tube & fabric wing) makes sense. If you want to store in a partial hangar or a trailer, the Kolbs can't be beat, with their easy and fast wing folding. If you need to tie down in the elements, an all-metal wing is better. I am in that last group: I am working with Mark Beierle of Earthstar Aircraft to design me a tandem version of his eGull 2000 (electric propulsion), and I have flown his staggered-seat side-by-side Odyssey with him (HKS). All Mark's designs use a single-piece cantilevered (no struts) all-aluminum wing, similar to the Titan Tornado. If that does not work out, the Kolbra is my plan B.

 



On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:30 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I think it is important to differentiate between the Long Wing Challenger and the Clipped Wing version. The Long Wing is much less responsive in roll than the clipped wing and with the enclosed canopy installed can be difficult to manage in windy situations, even with the horizontal stabilizer mods. For a given amount of power, the Challenger is faster than a MkIIIC (never flown an Xtra so I can't comment from personal experience). This is largely due to the engine being hidden somewhat behind the fuselage substantially reducing drag compared to Kolbs mostly above wing engine mounting. The Clipped wing Challenger is faster than the Long Wing and much more pleasant to fly. I've instructed in both a Challenger and MkIIIC and for instruction, I prefer the MkIII.

  

 For solo flight or with a passenger, I prefer the tandem seating configuration, except for long x-country flights. If you are interested in the tandem seating, I consider a Clipped Wing Challenger to be viable but Kolb's Firestar II, Slingshot, and Kolbra are better all around airplanes. Of these tandem seat Kolbs, the Kolbra is the only one with dual controls.

  

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 

 Diamond Katana DA20-A1

 Rotax 912 F3

 

 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.

 - Anonymous

 

 

 

 

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