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Pre-oiling 912ULS

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jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Greetings all:



I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:



I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005.  I just unwrapped it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil.  I have a 12 volt oil pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a question:



Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circulate oil throughout the gallery?  I am concerned the pump will not pass oil if the engine is not turning.



Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there unless there is some reason not to.  My preference is to feed through the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.



I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return hosebarb and back into the return tank.



Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?



Thanks, Jim



Kolb Mark3X

912ULS

80% completed

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Jim,



You will need to do a good oil purge.



Here is the Rotax link to a video:

http://www.rotax-owner.com/information-reg/expanded-video-instructions-reg/33-exp-si-912-018



In the Installation manual section 13.10 page 78 (Oil Purge) are the same instructions.



I would advise that you go to the Rotax Owner website and download the 5 manuals you will need for your engine. They will be very helpful and almost all your answers will be there. You may even want to join the Rotax website as there are some good videos and experience for you to draw on there.



This is very important for this first start, but is easy to do. If It was my first start I would do it twice. It's very easy. twice just means rotating the prop twice as much.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Roger,



Thanks for the response.  I agree on the value of the Rotax Owner site.  For years I got the updates, and am now reviewing the latest docs.  I just joined the pay portion (is paying to play new?) and reviewed the video.  The procedure does make sense, and I recall in the maintenance class they stressed the critical importance of purging.  That said my question is can I pump oil into the engine *without* rotating it?



The procedure suggests air pressure against the tank to force oil into a turning engine.  I am fortunate to have an electric oil pump so I don't need the air pressure.



I am several months from engine start, and have had the engine in its crate, wrapped in plastic for years.  I want to circulate oil without rotating what I fear are dry (or nearly so) bearing journals.



When engine start comes I will follow this purging procedure to the letter.



Until then I wish to circulate oil, without first turning the engine.



I will re-examine the engine docs to look at the oil pump/bypass topology, but to save time I was asking if anyone on this list knew if oil can be pumped past a stationary oil pump.



My intent is to rig up my system and pump fresh oil through the gallery several times a month until engine installation.  If I am lucky perhaps that will make up for having a new engine in mothballs so long.



Do you (or anyone else) know if a non-turning engine will allow oil under pressure past it?



Thanks, Jim

--- On Fri, 10/26/12, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, October 26, 2012, 3:47 PM

 --> RotaxEngines-List message

 posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Hi Jim,

 

 You will need to do a good oil purge.

 

 Here is the Rotax link to a video:

 http://www.rotax-owner.com/information-reg/expanded-video-instructions-reg/33-exp-si-912-018

 

 In the Installation manual section 13.10 page 78 (Oil Purge)

 are the same instructions.

 

 I would advise that you go to the Rotax Owner website and

 download the 5 manuals you will need for your engine. They

 will be very helpful and almost all your answers will be

 there.

 

 This is very important for this first start, but is easy to

 do. If It was my first start I would do it twice. It's very

 easy. twice just means rotating the prop twice as much.

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated

 Home 520-574-1080  TRY HOME FIRST

 Cell 520-349-7056

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386073#386073

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Your going to have to rotate the engine to get into critical areas and past the pump.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim,

Roger is correct that you must rotate the engine to get oil through the system even if externally pressurizing the inlet side of the pump.  The reason is that the oil pump on the front of the engine is a positive displacement pump, which will allow very little oil (if any) to pass if it is not turning. BTW, when the engine is running, the inlet side of the oil pump is at lower than atmospheric pressure, never pressurized.



I'm not recommending this but you could pressurize the oil system on the outlet side of the pump through the oil pressure relief valve port. If you do this, make sure you remove the relief valve and spring and that the applied pressure is controlled within the allowable range. I don't think it is necessary to do this but in theory it could be done this way.



With a $20,000 engine, why not just follow the manufacturer's directions? It is certainly simpler and Rotax doesn't leave much to chance.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Thom, Roger:



Appreciate the confirmation and suggestions!  Point certainly taken regarding adherence to the Rotax procedure.  My problem is I waited so long to maintain this engine I am concerned the journals will score if I rotate the engine without adding oil first.  I regret not following the Rotax procedure 5 years ago.  I had the same though with regard to pressurizing the upstream side of the galley, and am studying the gallery details in the manual now.



Thanks all,  and have a great weekend.



-Jim 



--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 5:14 AM

 --> RotaxEngines-List message

 posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

 

 Jim,

 Roger is correct that you must rotate the engine to get oil

 through the system even if externally pressurizing the inlet

 side of the pump.  The reason is that the oil pump on

 the front of the engine is a positive displacement pump,

 which will allow very little oil (if any) to pass if it is

 not turning. BTW, when the engine is running, the inlet side

 of the oil pump is at lower than atmospheric pressure, never

 pressurized.

 

 I'm not recommending this but you could pressurize the oil

 system on the outlet side of the pump through the oil

 pressure relief valve port. If you do this, make sure you

 remove the relief valve and spring and that the applied

 pressure is controlled within the allowable range. I don't

 think it is necessary to do this but in theory it could be

 done this way.

 

 With a $20,000 engine, why not just follow the

 manufacturer's directions? It is certainly simpler and Rotax

 doesn't leave much to chance.

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 

 Diamond Katana DA20-A1

 Rotax 912 F3

 

 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long. 

 - Anonymous

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386100#386100

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim:



As they say your idea is Spot On.  The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine.  To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter productive.  

  



Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:

1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?

  2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?

When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:

  1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil?  If so use it.

2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain.  Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.  

  Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.

Special Note:  Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2

  It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.  

Have you been doing that?

  If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.

Why do i say that?  Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT the gearbox gears.  Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.

  So, how should you Pre-Oil?

1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .

2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction.  It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).

  3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through.  If it does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.

4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made.  It can handle oil pressure up to 150 PSI.  YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil at that pressure.  

  5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal operation.

6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.

  7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up.  There will probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short time.

  8 - Now, here I have to ask a question.  Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow check valve?  If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow direction. 

If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.

  9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the OUTPUT side of the Engine.  See note 8.  

  10 - Now, here you have some options:  

a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the engine.  And remember to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7).  I really doubt if this will ever happen, or...

  b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure to spray the oil all around inside the engine.

The Pictures:

 Pic #1 is a general overview 

Pic #2 shows the fittings.  One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit.  From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom of the unit.

 You will see a Shrader valve on top.  I hook up a 12VDC portable tire pump.  Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and running when you open the valve.  



 

This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month or more.

 



Barry

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com (jspc78(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com (jspc78(at)yahoo.com)>

   

 Greetings all:

 

 I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:

 

 I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005.  I just unwrapped it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil.  I have a 12 volt oil pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a question:

   

 Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circulate oil throughout the gallery?  I am concerned the pump will not pass oil if the engine is not turning.

 

 Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there unless there is some reason not to.  My preference is to feed through the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.

   

 I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return hosebarb and back into the return tank.

 

 Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?

 

 Thanks, Jim

 

 Kolb Mark3X

 912ULS

 80% completed

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

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jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Barry,  

   

Thanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly dry engine being rotated to introduce oil.  Your pvc pre-oiler is really cool!  Thanks for the pics.  

   

I purchased the engine around 2005.  I peeled back the plastic, took a bunch of pictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and reassembled the crate.  The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my spare bedroom, temperature controlled.  Fast forward to last week.  I opened it and pulled the engine out of the crate.  Close inspection showed the engine was still externally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants of the oil used during the test run at the factory.  All good news I think.  

   

After much consideration I decided to inject oil into the pressure sender port.  As was confirmed by this listâ€™s experts the oil pump is a positive displacement type (no surprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the pump if I desire gallery oil pressure without turning.  I didnâ€™t inject at the pressure regulator as suggested cause I didnâ€™t have ready access to the metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasnâ€™t sure if I would simply vent oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the regulator apart.  So I went with the pressure sensor port.  

   

I removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn motorcycle formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40 to 55psi from a 12 volt pump.  Added a tee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator so the pump doesnâ€™t chatter.  Worked out to 3 seconds of pump runtime to 12 seconds of resting.  After running all day the pump wasnâ€™t even warm.  I opened the valve covers and saw oil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil gallery is pressurized.  

   

Next I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see pic), and used it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.  The level was also high enough to submerge the bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic of open gearbox from the servicing class).  Then I leaned the engine left and right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh oil around in the gearbox.  Drained the crankcase, put a couple of tablespoon of oil into each sparkplug hole.  Finally, after hours of oil circulation I turned the engine over, plugs still out.    

   

Note I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.  I seem to have misplaced my oil tank.  I will look around for it a little longer before I worry about buying another!  

   

I offer this only for entertainment purposes and donâ€™t suggest anyone perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer.  My engine is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome.  I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am ready to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm lifter status per the Rotax procedure.   

   

-Jim

--- On Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM



Jim:



As they say your idea is Spot On.  The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine.  To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter productive.  

  



Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:

1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?

  2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?

When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:

  1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil?  If so use it.

2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain.  Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.  

  Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.

Special Note:  Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2

  It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.  

Have you been doing that?

  If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.

Why do i say that?  Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT the gearbox gears.  Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.

  So, how should you Pre-Oil?

1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .

2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction.  It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).

  3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through.  If it does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.

4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made.  It can handle oil pressure up to 150 PSI.  YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil at that pressure.  

  5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal operation.

6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.

  7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up.  There will probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short time.

  8 - Now, here I have to ask a question.  Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow check valve?  If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow direction. 

If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.

  9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the OUTPUT side of the Engine.  See note 8.  

  10 - Now, here you have some options:  

a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the engine.  And remember to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7).  I really doubt if this will ever happen, or...

  b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure to spray the oil all around inside the engine.

The Pictures:

 Pic #1 is a general overview 

Pic #2 shows the fittings.  One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit.  From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom of the unit.

 You will see a Shrader valve on top.  I hook up a 12VDC portable tire pump.  Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and running when you open the valve.  



 

This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month or more.

 



Barry

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton <[url=/mc/compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com]jspc78(at)yahoo.com[/url]> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <[url=/mc/compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com]jspc78(at)yahoo.com[/url]>

   

 Greetings all:

 

 I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:

 

 I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005.  I just unwrapped it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil.  I have a 12 volt oil pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a question:

   

 Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circulate oil throughout the gallery?  I am concerned the pump will not pass oil if the engine is not turning.

 

 Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there unless there is some reason not to.  My preference is to feed through the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.

   

 I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return hosebarb and back into the return tank.

 

 Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?

 

 Thanks, Jim

 

 Kolb Mark3X

 912ULS

 80% completed

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim Clayton a Ã©crit :

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I offer this only for entertainment purposes and donâ€™t suggest anyone 

 perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer.  My 

 engine is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the 

 outcome.  I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am 

 ready to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm 

 lifter status per the Rotax procedure.



  



Jim,
	




In my opinion, you did well, though it might be overkill. Nothing wrong 

with having the engine thoroughly oiled before use.

Someone mentioned possible problems with the gearbox : you can't do much 

harm to the gears by turning the engine by hand a few turns, even if 

they happened to be dry.

Very few jounals in the Rotax, so the main issue migth be moving the 

pistons in a dry cylinder. Not sure, but you certainly took care of this 

by injecting some oil through the plug holes before turning anything.

Apart from this, no much risk with piston pins etc...



If correctly drained, too much oil will not harm the engine.



FWIW,

Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

just a thought on a bit off subject.. but looking at the pic of the back side of the gearbox... 

has anyone thought of plugging the oil journal holes in a gearbox... tapping a plug hole in the top and filling it with 90  gear oil... would solve a lot of issues with 912 and the oil debates. and the problems with excessive wear.. i am not sure of effects of slipper clutching.. just talking bout gears only boxes....

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim:

Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last

day or so.

HEY    Really great contraption.  I love your set up.  You have just

done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would.  The idea of the sight

tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a great idea.  Now you now

know exactly the level oil and what was covered.  Good Job Old Man.

Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up.

 It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will

notice IF they pay attention.  The prop blast will disperse things rapidly.

Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue.  Lots of moving parts and

lots of metal on metal contact areas.  If you were to:

1 - Remove the spark plugs.

2 - Ground the Mags.

3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND  -

4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/2" Electric

Drill.

You will have covered all bases and will have that Totally Warm Fuzzy

Feeling.

5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders prior to turning over

the engine by hand.

The only really rough Metal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra

oil there worn hurt.

Great Job - Keep us informed.

Barry

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote] Hi Barry,****

 ** **

 Thanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly dry engine being rotated

 to introduce oil.  Your pvc pre-oiler is really cool!  Thanks for the pics.

 ****

 ** **

 I purchased the engine around 2005.  I peeled back the plastic, took a

 bunch of pictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and

 reassembled the crate.  The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my spare

 bedroom, temperature controlled.  Fast forward to last week.  I opened it

 and pulled the engine out of the crate.  Close inspection showed the engine

 was still externally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants of the

 oil used during the test run at the factory.  All good news I think.****

 ** **

 After much consideration I decided to inject oil into the pressure sender

 port.  As was confirmed by this list’s experts the oil pump is a positive

 displacement type (no surprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the

 pump if I desire gallery oil pressure without turning.  I didn’t inject at

 the pressure regulator as suggested cause I didn’t have ready access to the

 metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn’t sure if I would simply vent

 oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the regulator

 apart.  So I went with the pressure sensor port.****

 ** **

 I removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn motorcycle

 formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40 to

 55psi from a 12 volt pump.  Added a tee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed

 tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator so the pump doesn’t

 chatter.  Worked out to 3 seconds of pump runtime to 12 seconds of

 resting.  After running all day the pump wasn’t even warm.  I opened the

 valve covers and saw oil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil

 gallery is pressurized.****

 ** **

 Next I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see pic), and used

 it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.  The level was

 also high enough to submerge the bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic of

 open gearbox from the servicing class).  Then I leaned the engine left and

 right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh oil around

 in the gearbox.  Drained the crankcase, put a couple of tablespoon of oil

 into each sparkplug hole.  Finally, after hours of oil circulation I turned

 the engine over, plugs still out.  ****

 ** **

 Note I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.  I seem to have

 misplaced my oil tank.  I will look around for it a little longer before I

 worry about buying another!****

 ** **

 I offer this only for entertainment purposes and don’t suggest anyone

 perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer.  My engine

 is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome.  I

 intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am ready to start

 it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm lifter status per the

 Rotax procedure. ****

 ** **

 -Jim****

 --- On *Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>* wrote:

 From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM

 Jim:

 As they say your idea is Spot On.  The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to

 saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine.

  To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter

 productive.

 Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:

 1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?

 2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with

 a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?

 When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:

 1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil?  If so use it.

 2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can

 obtain.  Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.

 Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of

 the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.

 Special Note:  Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2

 It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more

 than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.

 Have you been doing that?

 If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.

 Why do i say that?  Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT

 the gearbox gears.  Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil -

 SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.

 So, how should you Pre-Oil?

 1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .

 2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction.  It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5)

 - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).

 3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through.  If it does

 not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.

 4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made.  It can handle oil pressure up

 to 150 PSI.  YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil

 at that pressure.

 5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the

 pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal

 operation.

 6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should

 pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the

 pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.

 7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil

 Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up.  There will probably be only a small

 deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short time.

 8 - Now, here I have to ask a question.  Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a

 reverse flow check valve?  If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow

 direction.

 If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.

 9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction

 - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the

 OUTPUT side of the Engine.  See note 8.

 10 - Now, here you have some options:

 a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil

 that makes it to the exit of the engine.  And remember to hook up a

 overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7).  I really doubt if this will ever

 happen, or...

 b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure

 to spray the oil all around inside the engine.

 The Pictures:

 Pic #1 is a general overview

 Pic #2 shows the fittings.  One thing you can not see is the inside of the

 unit.  From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes

 to the bottom of the unit.

 You will see a Shrader valve on top.  I hook up a 12VDC portable tire

 pump.  Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and

 running when you open the valve.

 This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month

 or more.

 Barry

 On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com>

 > wrote:

 >

 Greetings all:

 I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:

 I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005.  I just unwrapped it

 and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the

 engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the

 engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil.  I have a 12 volt oil

 pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a

 question:

 Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to

 circulate oil throughout the gallery?  I am concerned the pump will not

 pass oil if the engine is not turning.

 Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from

 there unless there is some reason not to.  My preference is to feed through

 the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Barry/All:



Thanks!  I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes me feel better about storing the engine for so long 

I agree with respect to the gearbox.  While I did lean the engine forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big bearings on the prop shaft.  I was thinking of again removing the fuel pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up.  Then with several helpers turning the engine upside down.  This would trap oil at the prop-shaft end.  Leave it upside down for perhaps a couple of hours to marinate two  big bearings.  Looking at the photos I took in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash to keep those two lubed.  I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soak in enough oil to suffice.  Once done I will turn it right side up, and allow all the oil to drain.

I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this system will stay in place awhile.  Wish I could find the oil tank as the open bucket has to go.  I will post separately asking if anyone has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely).

-Jim



--- On Wed, 10/31/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2012, 7:15 AM



Jim:



Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last day or so.  

 HEY    Really great contraption.  I love your set up.  You have just done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would.  The idea of the sight tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a great idea.  Now you now know exactly the level oil and what was covered.  Good Job Old Man.

 



Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up.  It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will notice IF they pay attention.  The prop blast will disperse things rapidly.

 



Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue.  Lots of moving parts and lots of metal on metal contact areas.  If you were to:

1 - Remove the spark plugs.

 2 - Ground the Mags.

3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND  - 

4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/2" Electric Drill.

 You will have covered all bases and will have that Totally Warm Fuzzy Feeling.

5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders prior to turning over the engine by hand.  

 The only really rough Metal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra oil there worn hurt.

Great Job - Keep us informed.

 



Barry



On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton <[url=/mc/compose?to=jspc78(at)yahoo.com]jspc78(at)yahoo.com[/url]> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 Hi Barry,  

   

Thanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly dry engine being rotated to introduce oil.  Your pvc pre-oiler is really cool!  Thanks for the pics.  

   

I purchased the engine around 2005.  I peeled back the plastic, took a bunch of pictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and reassembled the crate.  The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my spare bedroom, temperature controlled.  Fast forward to last week.  I opened it and pulled the engine out of the crate.  Close inspection showed the engine was still externally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants of the oil used during the test run at the factory.  All good news I think.  

   

After much consideration I decided to inject oil into the pressure sender port.  As was confirmed by this listâ€™s experts the oil pump is a positive displacement type (no surprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the pump if I desire gallery oil pressure without turning.  I didnâ€™t inject at the pressure regulator as suggested cause I didnâ€™t have ready access to the metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasnâ€™t sure if I would simply vent oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the regulator apart.  So I went with the pressure sensor port.  

   

I removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn motorcycle formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40 to 55psi from a 12 volt pump.  Added a tee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator so the pump doesnâ€™t chatter.  Worked out to 3 seconds of pump runtime to 12 seconds of resting.  After running all day the pump wasnâ€™t even warm.  I opened the valve covers and saw oil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil gallery is pressurized.  

   

Next I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see pic), and used it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.  The level was also high enough to submerge the bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic of open gearbox from the servicing class).  Then I leaned the engine left and right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh oil around in the gearbox.  Drained the crankcase, put a couple of tablespoon of oil into each sparkplug hole.  Finally, after hours of oil circulation I turned the engine over, plugs still out.    

   

Note I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.  I seem to have misplaced my oil tank.  I will look around for it a little longer before I worry about buying another!  

   

I offer this only for entertainment purposes and donâ€™t suggest anyone perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer.  My engine is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome.  I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am ready to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm lifter status per the Rotax procedure.   

   

-Jim

--- On Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE <[url=/mc/compose?to=flyadive(at)gmail.com]flyadive(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

From: FLYaDIVE <[url=/mc/compose?to=flyadive(at)gmail.com]flyadive(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

To: [url=/mc/compose?to=rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com]rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com[/url]

 Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM



Jim:



As they say your idea is Spot On.  The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine.  To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter productive.  

   



Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:

1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?

   2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas?

When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:

   1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil?  If so use it.

2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain.  Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it.  

   Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS.

Special Note:  Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2

   It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year.  

Have you been doing that?

   If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling.

Why do i say that?  Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT the gearbox gears.  Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.

   So, how should you Pre-Oil?

1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 .

2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction.  It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4).

   3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through.  If it does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you.

4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made.  It can handle oil pressure up to 150 PSI.  YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oil at that pressure.  

   5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal operation.

6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops.

   7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up.  There will probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short time.

   8 - Now, here I have to ask a question.  Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow check valve?  If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow direction. 

If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT.

   9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the OUTPUT side of the Engine.  See note 8.  

   10 - Now, here you have some options:  

a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the engine.  And remember to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7).  I really doubt if this will ever happen, or...

   b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure to spray the oil all around inside the engine.

The Pictures:

  Pic #1 is a general overview 

Pic #2 shows the fittings.  One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit.  From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom of the unit.

  You will see a Shrader valve on top.  I hook up a 12VDC portable tire pump.  Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and running when you open the valve.  



  

This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month or more.

 



Barry





On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

   



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com>

    

 Greetings all:

 

 I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes:

 

 I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005.  I just unwrapped it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil.  I have a 12 volt oil pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a question:

    

 Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circulate oil throughout the gallery?  I am concerned the pump will not pass oil if the engine is not turning.

 

 Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there unless there is some reason not to.  My preference is to feed through the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery.

    

 I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return hosebarb and back into the return tank.

 

 Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine?

 

 Thanks, Jim

 

 Kolb Mark3X

 912ULS

 80% completed

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [quote][b]

gcvisel

Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 11
Location: United States

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim,



   I've been following your re-oiling saga from the first, and really

can't quite figure out what you are trying to accomplish.  You preserve

an engine or other metal part by giving it a coat of oil to keep water

off the metal, to keep it from rusting.  Periodic re-coating renews this

protection.  I assume you have the preservation spec from Rotax?



   Extended soaking metal in oil does nothing for its long term wear

characteristics, as the oil does not "soak into" the metal.  We used to

use metal containers to hold oil because they are impervious to the oil.



   If your gears or bearings have rusted, no amount of oiling is going

to remove the rust.  Much better to maybe just open it up and look to

see if you actually have rust, and remove it chemically or replace the

parts.  Or if parts are seized, remove the dried oil with a solvent.



   Or am I missing something?  (I could see maybe soaking a dried out

seal in the hopes of reviving it, but again, I'd just figure on

replacing them if they leak.)



Gerry Visel

(ex-gearbox engineer for 30+ years, but now doing high tech toilets!)



On Wed, 2012-10-31 at 17:02 -0700, Jim Clayton wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Barry/All: 

 

 Thanks!  I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes

 me feel better about storing the engine for so long  

 

 I agree with respect to the gearbox.  While I did lean the engine

 forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big

 bearings on the prop shaft.  I was thinking of again removing the fuel

 pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up.  Then

 with several helpers turning the engine upside down.  This would trap

 oil at the prop-shaft end.  Leave it upside down for perhaps a couple

 of hours to marinate two big bearings.  Looking at the photos I took

 in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash

 to keep those two lubed.  I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soak

 in enough oil to suffice.  Once done I will turn it right side up, and

 allow all the oil to drain. 

 

 I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this

 system will stay in place awhile.  Wish I could find the oil tank as

 the open bucket has to go.  I will post separately asking if anyone

 has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely). 

 

 -Jim

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Gerry,

Sorry, I may not have been clear.  I am pretty handy in the material sciences, and do realize (for the purposes of this discussion) metals are not porous 

The engine was internally (inside the valve covers), and externally oily, and there is no evidence anywhere of corrosion or moisture damage.  It spent all its time in my care tightly wrapped in plastic and stored in a temperature controlled space.

I was using engineering slang to describe my desire to allow the the bearing races/rollers/balls and the plain bearing journals to flush away the old, possibly dried manufacturing oils and replace them with fresh Rotax approved oils.  Another goal is to wet, as best I can, the backs of the many oil seals present.  One of the Kolb builders, some years ago, was in my situation, and when the engine was finally started, it ran great, but all the seals began leaking requiring replacement within the first few months.  My hope is to try and avoid that.

I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.

Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals.  Clearly these structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splash.  I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.

As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a preservative oil.  I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine instead for two reasons:

--I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax

--The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will address nicely.

My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to prevent a problem is usually worth the time.  Particularly in my case: I have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expired.  So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself.  As I mentioned before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference.  I don't suggest anyone follow suit.

Thanks, Jim

--- On Wed, 10/31/12, Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2012, 5:34 PM

 --> RotaxEngines-List message

 posted by: Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com>

 Jim,

    I've been following your re-oiling saga

 from the first, and really

 can't quite figure out what you are trying to

 accomplish.  You preserve

 an engine or other metal part by giving it a coat of oil to

 keep water

 off the metal, to keep it from rusting.  Periodic

 re-coating renews this

 protection.  I assume you have the preservation spec

 from Rotax?

    Extended soaking metal in oil does nothing

 for its long term wear

 characteristics, as the oil does not "soak into" the

 metal.  We used to

 use metal containers to hold oil because they are impervious

 to the oil.

    If your gears or bearings have rusted, no

 amount of oiling is going

 to remove the rust.  Much better to maybe just open it

 up and look to

 see if you actually have rust, and remove it chemically or

 replace the

 parts.  Or if parts are seized, remove the dried oil

 with a solvent.

    Or am I missing something?  (I could

 see maybe soaking a dried out

 seal in the hopes of reviving it, but again, I'd just figure

 on

 replacing them if they leak.)

 Gerry Visel

 (ex-gearbox engineer for 30+ years, but now doing high tech

 toilets!)

 On Wed, 2012-10-31 at 17:02 -0700, Jim Clayton wrote:

 > Hi Barry/All: 

 > 

 > Thanks!  I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so

 the overkill makes

 > me feel better about storing the engine for so long 

 > 

 > I agree with respect to the gearbox.  While I did

 lean the engine

 > forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned

 about the big

 > bearings on the prop shaft.  I was thinking of

 again removing the fuel

 > pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing

 it up.  Then

 > with several helpers turning the engine upside

 down.  This would trap

 > oil at the prop-shaft end.  Leave it upside down

 for perhaps a couple

 > of hours to marinate two big bearings.  Looking at

 the photos I took

 > in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a

 bit of splash

 > to keep those two lubed.  I figure an hour or so

 marinating maybe soak

 > in enough oil to suffice.  Once done I will turn

 it right side up, and

 > allow all the oil to drain. 

 > 

 > I am several months from mounting the engine on the

 plane, so this

 > system will stay in place awhile.  Wish I could

 find the oil tank as

 > the open bucket has to go.  I will post separately

 asking if anyone

 > has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely). 

 > 

 > -Jim

 RotaxEngines-List Email Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim:



You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planing to use.

Two suggestions:

1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws, Nuts or Bolts more than they already are.  To do so could distort the shape of the gasket and creates a leak.  Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT.  Let it leak for a while and see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.

 2 - I understand your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But - I would run a test first.  Take a piece of gasket material.  Weigh it and measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punched out hole such as where a bolt may go through.  Then subject it to the silicone you plan on using.  Most silicone's are very close in substance except for particle size.  The big difference is in the mobilization agent.  And what happens when the agent evaporates off.  Better to know this before you address the engine itself.

 



Best of luck,

Barry



[quote]<Jim>

 I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.

 

 Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals.  Clearly these structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splash.  I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.

  

 As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a preservative oil.  I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine instead for two reasons:

 

 --I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax

 

 --The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will address nicely.

 

 My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to prevent a problem is usually worth the time.  Particularly in my case: I have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expired.  So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself.  As I mentioned before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference.  I don't suggest anyone follow suit.

  

 Thanks, Jim

[b]

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Great suggestions, Barry.  Thanks!  I will do some testing with the spray first.



In other news  looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800 something!!  ok, back to searching my shop.

-Jim



--- On Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM



Jim:



You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planing to use.

Two suggestions:

1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws,  Nuts or Bolts more than they already are.  To do so could distort the shape of the gasket and creates a leak.  Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT.  Let it leak for a while and see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.

 2 - I understand your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But - I would run a test first.  Take a piece of gasket material.  Weigh it and measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punched out hole such as where a bolt may go through.  Then subject it to the silicone you plan on using.  Most silicone's are very close in substance except for particle size.  The big difference is in the mobilization agent.  And what happens when the agent evaporates off.  Better to know this before you address the engine itself.

 



Best of luck,

Barry



 	  Quote: 	
		  <Jim>

 I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.

 

 Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals.  Clearly these structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splash.  I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.

  

 As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a preservative oil.  I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine instead for two reasons:

 

 --I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax

 

 --The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will address nicely.

 

 My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to prevent a problem is usually worth the time.  Particularly in my case: I have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expired.  So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself.  As I mentioned before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference.  I don't suggest anyone follow suit.

  

 Thanks, Jim

www.ow" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List==========


	


	


 [quote][b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Jim:



For testing you could make a tank from PVC piping.  It will handle the pressure if any and also the temperature.  You could also install a simple oil filter in line.

I know you will find the tank... Of course it will be in the last place you look.  

 



Barry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com (jspc78(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Great suggestions, Barry.  Thanks!  I will do some testing with the spray first. 



In other news  looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800 something!!  ok, back to searching my shop.

-Jim



--- On Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)



Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM



Jim:



You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planing to use.

 



Two suggestions:

1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws,  Nuts or Bolts more than they already are.  To do so could distort the shape of the gasket and creates a leak.  Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT.  Let it leak for a while and see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.

  2 - I understand your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But - I would run a test first.  Take a piece of gasket material.  Weigh it and measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punched out hole such as where a bolt may go through.  Then subject it to the silicone you plan on using.  Most silicone's are very close in substance except for particle size.  The big difference is in the mobilization agent.  And what happens when the agent evaporates off.  Better to know this before you address the engine itself.

  



Best of luck,

Barry



 	  Quote: 	
		  <Jim>

 I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.

 

 Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals.  Clearly these structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splash.  I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement.

   

 As others on the list have correctly suggested this is a good time for a preservative oil.  I chose to use standard approved oil for this engine instead for two reasons:

 

 --I was concerned the clutch could be affected by a bad choice on my part, and I didn't want to wait and get possibly ambiguous guidance from Rotax

 

 --The approved standard oil was locally available, and sure to work, however it would need periodic refreshing, something my oiling rig will address nicely.

 

 My professional engineering experience has taught me the extra effort to prevent a problem is usually worth the time.  Particularly in my case: I have big investment in brand new engine whose warranty has long since expired.  So I cooked up all these steps to satisfy myself.  As I mentioned before, I offer this purely for its entertainment value and reference.  I don't suggest anyone follow suit.

   

 Thanks, Jim

www.ow" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">h="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List==========



	


	


  	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com



	




	




-- 



Barry  

“Chop’d Liver”  

   

YOU ARE NOT   

WE ARE  

BECAUSE WE WERE   

YOU ARE  

   

The words to be inserted are VETERANS’ and FREE

Thank you Veterans!



 

  [quote][b]

jspc78(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Hi Barry,

Good idea!

Thanks, Jim



--- On Fri, 11/2/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:



From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS

To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, November 2, 2012, 5:17 AM



Jim:

For testing you could make a tank from PVC piping. Â It will handle the pressure if any and also the temperature. Â You could also install a simple oil filter in line.I know you will find the tank... Of course it will be in the last place you look. Â 



Barry



On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jim Clayton <jspc78(at)yahoo.com> wrote:


Great suggestions, Barry. Â Thanks! Â I will do some testing with the spray first.



In other news Â looked up a new oil tank on the Lockwood site....$800 something!! Â ok, back to searching my shop.

-Jim



--- On Thu, 11/1/12, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:




From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS


To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, November 1, 2012, 1:32 PM



Jim:

You are right on about what you are saying and the procedure you are planing to use.



Two suggestions:1 - On your gaskets - DO NOT tighten any Screws,

 Nuts or Bolts more than they already are. Â To do so couldÂ distortÂ the shape of the gasket and creates a leak. Â Start from the known you have and run it for a while AND even if it does leak - LET IT. Â Let it leak for a while and see if temperature and hot oil bring back some life to the gaskets.


2 - IÂ understandÂ your idea of using silicone spray on the gaskets - But - I would run a test first. Â Take a piece of gasket material. Â Weigh it and measure the thickness and if you have the ability the diameter of a punched out hole such as where a bolt may go through. Â Then subject it to the silicone you plan on using. Â MostÂ silicone'sÂ are very close in substance except for particle size. Â The bigÂ differenceÂ is in theÂ mobilizationÂ agent. Â And what happens when the agent evaporates off. Â Better to know this before you address the engine itself.




Best of luck,

Barry



<Jim>


I am considering applying some kind of silicone spray to the external seal lips to further my goal to save whatever seals I can.





Specifically regarding the large bearings supporting the prop shaft, after studying my photos of the engine we messed with in the servicing class, I noticed the bearing cages and possibly some kind of wiper *might* slow the flow of replacement oil as detailed above in my goals. Â Clearly these structures are designed to work best in a running engine with much oil splash. Â I surmised, if that was true I could flood the area and allow oil to seep past any obstructing structures and complete the oil replacement

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: Pre-oiling 912ULS

Guys -  



I don't know how it happened, but my Veteran's Day message became attached to an email.

I can only blame it on Google.

Go figure, yet the words are still true.



 

Check 6

Barry

  [quote][b]

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