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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:46 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: domingo, 4 de Novembro de 2012 01:52
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: aileron trim
Bill, funny you would mention the circuit thing, as I too had a primary flight instructor 35 years ago show and teach me the exact same thing. No hands on the column, feet on the rudder peddles and using elevator trim/power to descend etc. To this day I use rudder and elevator trim all the time when flying my C-177B.
Having said that, there is something to be said about the KISS principle. None the less I've installed trim for all 3 axis.
Can't wait to use the electric trim in the -10.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Funny you should mention the complete circuit using trim. Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150 at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only. Pitch trim that is, and rudder and power of course. It showed me how unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.
Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim when engaged? Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be broken?
Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods" Watson
On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:
| Quote: |
All good points.
I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral. Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is your friend!
Cheers,
Jim
do not archive
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rngurley
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Carlos –
If you look in the archives, there are numerous ideas. Based on the ideas, I have put trim into my rudder. If you need additional info, please contact me off line.
Dick
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 6:46 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: domingo, 4 de Novembro de 2012 01:52
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: aileron trim
Bill, funny you would mention the circuit thing, as I too had a primary flight instructor 35 years ago show and teach me the exact same thing. No hands on the column, feet on the rudder peddles and using elevator trim/power to descend etc. To this day I use rudder and elevator trim all the time when flying my C-177B.
Having said that, there is something to be said about the KISS principle. None the less I've installed trim for all 3 axis.
Can't wait to use the electric trim in the -10.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Funny you should mention the complete circuit using trim. Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150 at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only. Pitch trim that is, and rudder and power of course. It showed me how unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.
Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim when engaged? Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be broken?
Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods" Watson
On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:
| Quote: |
All good points.
I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral. Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is your friend!
Cheers,
Jim
do not archive
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5. Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
On 11/4/2012 6:45 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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aerosport1
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Carlos the only electric rudder trim you
Must make. Aerosport products offers
A rudder trim that is not electric but installs in most RV-10s in around 1 hour. It works very good and another advantage is it keeps the rudder
From flapping in the wind while parked.
Check out Www.aerosportproducts.com
Geoff
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 4, 2012, at 6:45 AM, "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: domingo, 4 de Novembro de 2012 01:52
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: aileron trim
Bill, funny you would mention the circuit thing, as I too had a primary flight instructor 35 years ago show and teach me the exact same thing. No hands on the column, feet on the rudder peddles and using elevator trim/power to descend etc. To this day I use rudder and elevator trim all the time when flying my C-177B.
Having said that, there is something to be said about the KISS principle. None the less I've installed trim for all 3 axis.
Can't wait to use the electric trim in the -10.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Funny you should mention the complete circuit using trim. Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150 at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only. Pitch trim that is, and rudder and power of course. It showed me how unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.
Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim when engaged? Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be broken?
Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods" Watson
On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:
| Quote: |
All good points.
I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly. It is also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral. Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system. Years ago I instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is your friend!
Cheers,
Jim
do not archive
|
012345678901234567890123456
7
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033 |
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Take a look at Aerosport Products rudder trim. It's simple and doesn't require any major modifications to the airframe. It can be installed in under an hour.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 4, 2012, at 8:36 AM, Linn <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote] Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5. Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
On 11/4/2012 6:45 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
| Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler |
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larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:04 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Carlos, Geoff's system is much quicker and easier. I probably spent 30 hrs (I seem to be a "slow builder" though) building my electric rudder trim system. I've got about a dozen word documents I could send you but I think after seeing the process I went through, the spring biased system is much easier.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:23 AM, g.combs <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com (g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com)> wrote:
[quote] Carlos the only electric rudder trim you
Must make. Aerosport products offers
A rudder trim that is not electric but installs in most RV-10s in around 1 hour. It works very good and another advantage is it keeps the rudder
From flapping in the wind while parked.
Check out Www.aerosportproducts.com
Geoff
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 4, 2012, at 6:45 AM, "Carlos Trigo" <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Guys
Since this thread has begun being about the Aileron trim, and someone mentioned also the Rudder trim, can somebody please confirm if there is an optional electric Rudder trim for the -10, and where can I find it.
Regards
Carlos
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Lark
Sent: domingo, 4 de Novembro de 2012 01:52
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: aileron trim
Bill, funny you would mention the circuit thing, as I too had a primary flight instructor 35 years ago show and teach me the exact same thing. No hands on the column, feet on the rudder peddles and using elevator trim/power to descend etc. To this day I use rudder and elevator trim all the time when flying my C-177B.
Having said that, there is something to be said about the KISS principle. None the less I've installed trim for all 3 axis.
Can't wait to use the electric trim in the -10.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Funny you should mention the complete circuit using trim. Years ago when trying to learn to land a C150 at age 16, the instructor flew the pattern with trim-only. Pitch trim that is, and rudder and power of course. It showed me how unnnecessary my death grip on the yoke was.
Anyway, does that mean that the MD-11 A/P didn't operate the trim when engaged? Or was it just a good habit that shouldn't be broken?
Bill "still thinks his TruTrak AP is a magical gift from the gods" Watson
On 11/3/2012 2:10 PM, James Dearborn wrote:
| Quote: |
All good points.
I'm one of those who believes in trim, trim, trim. Trimmed hands off is the most efficient your airplane will fly.. It is also the 'state' your airplane should be in when the auto pilot is engaged. Even flying the MD-11 I trimmed to hands off before engaging the A/P and would occasionally click off the A/P enroute just to insure the control pressures were neutral. Finally, trim can be a backup flight control system.. Years ago I instructed in T-34Bs (1,000+ hrs). One demo I gave was a complete circuit in the landing pattern using only trim. Trim is your friend!
Cheers,
Jim
do not archive
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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|
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12
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Strasnuts
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
I should state I went about 100 hours without rudder trim. I waited for Geoff (Aerosport Products) to make his rudder trim for the RV-10. After installing it I have used it a lot and really like it for long climb outs or slow descents. Mostly just to have my right foot on the ground. A great by product was the springs holding the rudder from banging around in the wind. Before the trim I used to hurry and stick in the rudder pedal gust lock but now I really don't have to at all unless the wind is 15+.
[quote] ---
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_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
Hey Lynn,
No prob. I do get the point that mods add time. I wasn't
happy to have to be one of the early people to deal with
the fuel lines/valve install and things like that, without
may people's examples to look at.
That VAF link you sent is basically my (actuall Vic S's)
rudder trim. It took me one night to cut the hole and
add the doubler and servo. I guess add another evening
for getting the parts painted and ready. But, it was pretty
easy. It wasn't super cheap just because I bought the
Ray Allen parts, but otherwise was not at all complicated
and works really well at least, so the reward paid off.
I think for many things, building per-plans is the best
way to go. There are a handful of things though where
I'm pretty glad I deviated. I was flying in something
like 1700 hours, and probably could have in 1500-1600 if
I hadn't deviated at all. But I'm much happier with my
end result. 
Happy building!
Tim
On 11/5/2012 9:22 AM, Linn wrote:
| Quote: | Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate
from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time
significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to
build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to
convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had
on /_my_/ build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat
offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one
from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I
consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like
bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect.
That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was
just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might
as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable
camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those
that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Lynn,
>
> Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
> First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
> almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
> like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
> The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
> lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
> simpler.
>
> But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
> paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
> in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
> building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
> to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
> MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
> you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
> hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
> like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
> some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
> get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
> evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
> controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
> to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
> painful than it is.
>
> But where you really lose it is this line:
>
> "At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
> the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
> flying."
>
> You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
> for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
> you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
> clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
> of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
> yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
> the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
> an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
> statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
> people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
> Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
> opinions will become much more valuable.
> My personal feelings on trim:
>
> Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
> principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
> find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
> than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
>
> Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
> everyone should have speed control and I personally
> believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
> should be mandatory install.
>
> Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
> much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
> trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
> No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
> every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
> airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
> it's likely to be something that people will like.
> Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
> tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
> a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
> I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
> soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
> rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
> want to mess with a control surface too much that I
> plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
> add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
> it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
> consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
> is about as simple as it gets if you have an
> electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
> spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
> Tim
>
> On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
>> Hi Carlos.
>> To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
>> I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
>> hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
>> tab cut out of the rudder.
>>
>> I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
>> thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
>> I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
>> looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
>> autopilot and engine monitor.
>>
>> Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
>> the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
>> build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
>> servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
>> Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
>> it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
>> build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
>> with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do
>> someday.
>> Linn
>>
|
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rv10flyer(at)live.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
I respect Tim so I’ll respond here from my perspective. Been flying for a year- 109 flight hours; just did my conditional inspection. After 1 year of flying I’ll state the following. The Stock is fine but it sure lacks numerous required upgrades however. I was blessed to have met Don McDonald during my build, a real guru with parts, he made numerous parts, that (may) still be sold via plane innovations. He built them for himself without regard for profit. Example are the gear wheel pant extensions, rock solid and well worth that investment. I have the Aileron trim, I have not used it much but good to have if I need it, when I have it. I have the trim tab, works fine for me, no regrets having the electronic version. I upgraded the front gear axle and wheel, no regrets, sprayed a ceramic (truck liner) in the cabin, supposed to minimize noise and temperature control-and painted not needed with good ANR hedsets- would skip that. Otherwise I am pretty much stock and after a year of “break-in” the plane has held up solid and flew very nicely. I think Tim has the list of items to get for upgrading. If one uses that list they will be a great shape. I am not one for adding more and changing the plane unnecessarily. I think after 1 year of fine tuning and constant calls to poor Don, the plane is complete and I have no regrets of wishing I had added more or I wasted too much time upgrading something. I think if one gets what is required and wants to do it inexpensively, it can be done, stock works but not as well as if it was/is upgraded with better parts and options, just don’t spend too much time on forums and getting the latest upgrade. To be blunt there are still some out there building that were building before I ever got started- and that means 1 year researching the RV-10 before I did that first rivet. I have a day job, I got an average of 2-3 hours in each day and a complete day on the weekends for 4.5 years, minimal help. If it is something that can be done later and there is doubt, move on. I hate to see projects sitting around for years, especially those that have avionics, like computers they may be obsolete by the time you get the plane flying. I have a skyview and it was released right when I was building the panel. I needed to send some items back but fortunately I got in right about 1 year after it was released, it remains being updated and Dynon has been great in support, but if even if I was not flying the plane THAT too would eventually get replaced, Vertical Power doesn’t make the VP-200, a real shame since that has proven to be well worth the investment I made, in that case having something old paid off..
It can be done but don’t get lost doing everything out there. Tim is a book of knowledge, he knows what he is saying, Linn is right too. Get the plane flying, if in doubt about something, find a RV-10 somewhere, maybe a flyin and fly the plane to see if you need that gizmo. If there is someone in SoCal, contact me, love to get you out and answer any questions.
Pascal
From: Linn (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 7:22 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
|
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
Regarding Rudder Trim I have shared my link in the past to the trim on my -10::
http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/RudderTrim.aspx
It was our first attempt and was done on an already built rudder. No problems, works great and I am very happy to have electric rudder trim. No need for the position sensor because you can use your ball as the position indicator.
On my 8A Rudder Trim which was also installed on an already built rudder (we never do anything the easy way!) we were able to get the entire leaver arm inside the rudder so no additional items sticking out into the wind. This one turned out ultra clean and looks great (IMHO). It also functions well in flight. Servicing the trim mechanism is as simple as removing the 4 #8 screws and pulling out the trim tab and attached servo tray (much like pictured on the -10 but w/o the position sensor).
Robin
[img]cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDBB56.6C6C4970[/img][img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDBB56.6C6C4970[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 8:08 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
I respect Tim so I’ll respond here from my perspective. Been flying for a year- 109 flight hours; just did my conditional inspection. After 1 year of flying I’ll state the following. The Stock is fine but it sure lacks numerous required upgrades however. I was blessed to have met Don McDonald during my build, a real guru with parts, he made numerous parts, that (may) still be sold via plane innovations. He built them for himself without regard for profit. Example are the gear wheel pant extensions, rock solid and well worth that investment. I have the Aileron trim, I have not used it much but good to have if I need it, when I have it. I have the trim tab, works fine for me, no regrets having the electronic version. I upgraded the front gear axle and wheel, no regrets, sprayed a ceramic (truck liner) in the cabin, supposed to minimize noise and temperature control-and painted not needed with good ANR hedsets- would skip that. Otherwise I am pretty much stock and after a year of “break-in” the plane has held up solid and flew very nicely. I think Tim has the list of items to get for upgrading. If one uses that list they will be a great shape. I am not one for adding more and changing the plane unnecessarily. I think after 1 year of fine tuning and constant calls to poor Don, the plane is complete and I have no regrets of wishing I had added more or I wasted too much time upgrading something. I think if one gets what is required and wants to do it inexpensively, it can be done, stock works but not as well as if it was/is upgraded with better parts and options, just don’t spend too much time on forums and getting the latest upgrade. To be blunt there are still some out there building that were building before I ever got started- and that means 1 year researching the RV-10 before I did that first rivet. I have a day job, I got an average of 2-3 hours in each day and a complete day on the weekends for 4.5 years, minimal help. If it is something that can be done later and there is doubt, move on. I hate to see projects sitting around for years, especially those that have avionics, like computers they may be obsolete by the time you get the plane flying. I have a skyview and it was released right when I was building the panel. I needed to send some items back but fortunately I got in right about 1 year after it was released, it remains being updated and Dynon has been great in support, but if even if I was not flying the plane THAT too would eventually get replaced, Vertical Power doesn’t make the VP-200, a real shame since that has proven to be well worth the investment I made, in that case having something old paid off..
It can be done but don’t get lost doing everything out there. Tim is a book of knowledge, he knows what he is saying, Linn is right too. Get the plane flying, if in doubt about something, find a RV-10 somewhere, maybe a flyin and fly the plane to see if you need that gizmo. If there is someone in SoCal, contact me, love to get you out and answer any questions.
Pascal
From: Linn (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 7:22 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12
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bcondrey
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
Robin - got any pictures of how the lever arm is set up inside so it all fits with nothing exposed?
Bob
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Regarding Rudder Trim I have shared my link in the past to the trim on my -10::
http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/RudderTrim.aspx
It was our first attempt and was done on an already built rudder. No problems, works great and I am very happy to have electric rudder trim. No need for the position sensor because you can use your ball as the position indicator.
On my 8A Rudder Trim which was also installed on an already built rudder (we never do anything the easy way!) we were able to get the entire leaver arm inside the rudder so no additional items sticking out into the wind. This one turned out ultra clean and looks great (IMHO). It also functions well in flight. Servicing the trim mechanism is as simple as removing the 4 #8 screws and pulling out the trim tab and attached servo tray (much like pictured on the -10 but w/o the position sensor).
Robin
[img]cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDBB56.6C6C4970[/img][img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDBB56.6C6C4970[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 8:08 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
I respect Tim so I’ll respond here from my perspective. Been flying for a year- 109 flight hours; just did my conditional inspection. After 1 year of flying I’ll state the following. The Stock is fine but it sure lacks numerous required upgrades however. I was blessed to have met Don McDonald during my build, a real guru with parts, he made numerous parts, that (may) still be sold via plane innovations. He built them for himself without regard for profit. Example are the gear wheel pant extensions, rock solid and well worth that investment. I have the Aileron trim, I have not used it much but good to have if I need it, when I have it. I have the trim tab, works fine for me, no regrets having the electronic version. I upgraded the front gear axle and wheel, no regrets, sprayed a ceramic (truck liner) in the cabin, supposed to minimize noise and temperature control-and painted not needed with good ANR hedsets- would skip that. Otherwise I am pretty much stock and after a year of “break-in” the plane has held up solid and flew very nicely. I think Tim has the list of items to get for upgrading. If one uses that list they will be a great shape. I am not one for adding more and changing the plane unnecessarily. I think after 1 year of fine tuning and constant calls to poor Don, the plane is complete and I have no regrets of wishing I had added more or I wasted too much time upgrading something. I think if one gets what is required and wants to do it inexpensively, it can be done, stock works but not as well as if it was/is upgraded with better parts and options, just don’t spend too much time on forums and getting the latest upgrade. To be blunt there are still some out there building that were building before I ever got started- and that means 1 year researching the RV-10 before I did that first rivet. I have a day job, I got an average of 2-3 hours in each day and a complete day on the weekends for 4.5 years, minimal help. If it is something that can be done later and there is doubt, move on. I hate to see projects sitting around for years, especially those that have avionics, like computers they may be obsolete by the time you get the plane flying. I have a skyview and it was released right when I was building the panel. I needed to send some items back but fortunately I got in right about 1 year after it was released, it remains being updated and Dynon has been great in support, but if even if I was not flying the plane THAT too would eventually get replaced, Vertical Power doesn’t make the VP-200, a real shame since that has proven to be well worth the investment I made, in that case having something old paid off..
It can be done but don’t get lost doing everything out there. Tim is a book of knowledge, he knows what he is saying, Linn is right too. Get the plane flying, if in doubt about something, find a RV-10 somewhere, maybe a flyin and fly the plane to see if you need that gizmo. If there is someone in SoCal, contact me, love to get you out and answer any questions.
Pascal
From: Linn (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 7:22 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list...you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12
|
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)< November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on[/b] |
by:[/b][/quote] * AeroElectric www.buildersbooks.com[/b][/quote] .homebuilthelp.com/" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com< List Contribution Web Site:[u][/b][/quote] ef="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.m>[/u][/b]
>[/b][/quote] ==============[/b] [/quote]0 ore:[/b][/quote] ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List[/b] [/quote]12 ef="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matroni============[/b] [/quote]3
[/quote]
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
Why since you asked so nicely here you go…
Robin
[img]cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img]
[img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img][img]cid:image011.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 2:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Robin - got any pictures of how the lever arm is set up inside so it all fits with nothing exposed?
Bob
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
Regarding Rudder Trim I have shared my link in the past to the trim on my -10::
http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/RudderTrim.aspx
It was our first attempt and was done on an already built rudder. No problems, works great and I am very happy to have electric rudder trim. No need for the position sensor because you can use your ball as the position indicator.
On my 8A Rudder Trim which was also installed on an already built rudder (we never do anything the easy way!) we were able to get the entire leaver arm inside the rudder so no additional items sticking out into the wind. This one turned out ultra clean and looks great (IMHO). It also functions well in flight. Servicing the trim mechanism is as simple as removing the 4 #8 screws and pulling out the trim tab and attached servo tray (much like pictured on the -10 but w/o the position sensor).
Robin
[img]cid:image009.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7BB5E500[/img][img]cid:image010.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7BB5E500[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 8:08 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
I respect Tim so I’ll respond here from my perspective. Been flying for a year- 109 flight hours; just did my conditional inspection. After 1 year of flying I’ll state the following. The Stock is fine but it sure lacks numerous required upgrades however. I was blessed to have met Don McDonald during my build, a real guru with parts, he made numerous parts, that (may) still be sold via plane innovations. He built them for himself without regard for profit. Example are the gear wheel pant extensions, rock solid and well worth that investment. I have the Aileron trim, I have not used it much but good to have if I need it, when I have it. I have the trim tab, works fine for me, no regrets having the electronic version. I upgraded the front gear axle and wheel, no regrets, sprayed a ceramic (truck liner) in the cabin, supposed to minimize noise and temperature control-and painted not needed with good ANR hedsets- would skip that. Otherwise I am pretty much stock and after a year of “break-in” the plane has held up solid and flew very nicely. I think Tim has the list of items to get for upgrading. If one uses that list they will be a great shape. I am not one for adding more and changing the plane unnecessarily. I think after 1 year of fine tuning and constant calls to poor Don, the plane is complete and I have no regrets of wishing I had added more or I wasted too much time upgrading something. I think if one gets what is required and wants to do it inexpensively, it can be done, stock works but not as well as if it was/is upgraded with better parts and options, just don’t spend too much time on forums and getting the latest upgrade. To be blunt there are still some out there building that were building before I ever got started- and that means 1 year researching the RV-10 before I did that first rivet. I have a day job, I got an average of 2-3 hours in each day and a complete day on the weekends for 4.5 years, minimal help. If it is something that can be done later and there is doubt, move on. I hate to see projects sitting around for years, especially those that have avionics, like computers they may be obsolete by the time you get the plane flying. I have a skyview and it was released right when I was building the panel. I needed to send some items back but fortunately I got in right about 1 year after it was released, it remains being updated and Dynon has been great in support, but if even if I was not flying the plane THAT too would eventually get replaced, Vertical Power doesn’t make the VP-200, a real shame since that has proven to be well worth the investment I made, in that case having something old paid off..
It can be done but don’t get lost doing everything out there. Tim is a book of knowledge, he knows what he is saying, Linn is right too. Get the plane flying, if in doubt about something, find a RV-10 somewhere, maybe a flyin and fly the plane to see if you need that gizmo. If there is someone in SoCal, contact me, love to get you out and answer any questions.
Pascal
From: Linn (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 7:22 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12 |
� (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)< November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
by:
* AeroElectric www.buildersbooks.com
.homebuilthelp.com/" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com< List Contribution Web Site:
ef="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.m> 0
============== 1
ore:
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 2 3
ef="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matroni============ 4
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Ron B.
Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 103
Location: Nova Scotia
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: RV-10 Rudder trim |
|
|
Hey Tim
I was planning to install a rudder trim on the 14 just like I did on the 10, til I read your previous post. I hadn't thought of the aerobatic part. I will cancel that thought , Thanks Ron
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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I'm not considering it a 100% done deal yet...I may add it, but,
I don't think it's 100% needed, and it does take one thing out
of the mix that could go wrong on an aerobatic plane. So, I'm
not sure.
Tim
On 11/5/2012 6:40 PM, Ron B. wrote:
| Quote: |
Hey Tim
I was planning to install a rudder trim on the 14 just like I did on the 10, til I read your previous post. I hadn't thought of the aerobatic part. I will cancel that thought , Thanks Ron
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=386978#386978
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gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Well said, Tim!
grumpy
N184JM
Do Not Archive
On Nov 5, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
> Hi Carlos.
> To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
> I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
> hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
> tab cut out of the rudder.
>
> I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
> thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
> I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
> looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
> autopilot and engine monitor.
>
> Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
> the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
> build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
> servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
> Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
> it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
> build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
> with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
> Linn
>
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larkrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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Nice Robin. I wish I'd have seen that before I build my version. Well done.
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Why since you asked so nicely here you go…
Robin
[img]cid:image005.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img]
[img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img][img]cid:image011.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7D8DB240[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bob Condrey
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 2:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Robin - got any pictures of how the lever arm is set up inside so it all fits with nothing exposed?
Bob
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
Regarding Rudder Trim I have shared my link in the past to the trim on my -10::
http://painttheweb.com/painttheweb/rv-10/RudderTrim.aspx
It was our first attempt and was done on an already built rudder. No problems, works great and I am very happy to have electric rudder trim. No need for the position sensor because you can use your ball as the position indicator.
On my 8A Rudder Trim which was also installed on an already built rudder (we never do anything the easy way!) we were able to get the entire leaver arm inside the rudder so no additional items sticking out into the wind. This one turned out ultra clean and looks great (IMHO). It also functions well in flight. Servicing the trim mechanism is as simple as removing the 4 #8 screws and pulling out the trim tab and attached servo tray (much like pictured on the -10 but w/o the position sensor).
Robin
[img]cid:image009.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7BB5E500[/img][img]cid:image010.jpg(at)01CDBB6D.7BB5E500[/img]
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Pascal
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 8:08 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
I respect Tim so I’ll respond here from my perspective. Been flying for a year- 109 flight hours; just did my conditional inspection. After 1 year of flying I’ll state the following. The Stock is fine but it sure lacks numerous required upgrades however. I was blessed to have met Don McDonald during my build, a real guru with parts, he made numerous parts, that (may) still be sold via plane innovations. He built them for himself without regard for profit. Example are the gear wheel pant extensions, rock solid and well worth that investment. I have the Aileron trim, I have not used it much but good to have if I need it, when I have it. I have the trim tab, works fine for me, no regrets having the electronic version. I upgraded the front gear axle and wheel, no regrets, sprayed a ceramic (truck liner) in the cabin, supposed to minimize noise and temperature control-and painted not needed with good ANR hedsets- would skip that. Otherwise I am pretty much stock and after a year of “break-in” the plane has held up solid and flew very nicely. I think Tim has the list of items to get for upgrading. If one uses that list they will be a great shape. I am not one for adding more and changing the plane unnecessarily. I think after 1 year of fine tuning and constant calls to poor Don, the plane is complete and I have no regrets of wishing I had added more or I wasted too much time upgrading something. I think if one gets what is required and wants to do it inexpensively, it can be done, stock works but not as well as if it was/is upgraded with better parts and options, just don’t spend too much time on forums and getting the latest upgrade. To be blunt there are still some out there building that were building before I ever got started- and that means 1 year researching the RV-10 before I did that first rivet. I have a day job, I got an average of 2-3 hours in each day and a complete day on the weekends for 4.5 years, minimal help. If it is something that can be done later and there is doubt, move on. I hate to see projects sitting around for years, especially those that have avionics, like computers they may be obsolete by the time you get the plane flying. I have a skyview and it was released right when I was building the panel. I needed to send some items back but fortunately I got in right about 1 year after it was released, it remains being updated and Dynon has been great in support, but if even if I was not flying the plane THAT too would eventually get replaced, Vertical Power doesn’t make the VP-200, a real shame since that has proven to be well worth the investment I made, in that case having something old paid off..
It can be done but don’t get lost doing everything out there. Tim is a book of knowledge, he knows what he is saying, Linn is right too. Get the plane flying, if in doubt about something, find a RV-10 somewhere, maybe a flyin and fly the plane to see if you need that gizmo. If there is someone in SoCal, contact me, love to get you out and answer any questions.
Pascal
From: Linn (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 7:22 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: RE: RV-10 Rudder trim
Tim, thanks for your comments. I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I apologize for giving you the wrong impression.
My comments were aimed at the increased build time whenever you deviate from the plans. The decisions I made have stretched out my build time significantly. That's not to say I wouldn't do it again. I'm trying to build light ..... and fast .... and safe .... as I can. I wanted to convey what happens when you deviate from stock, and the impact it's had on my build time.
I am frustrated right now, but I've been here before. I am a repeat offender. Ah, good to get that off my chest!!!
I had a little knowledge of other trim systems. Here's one solution http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23591 and one from Aerosport http://www.aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm. I consider the first a lot of work, and the second far simpler if you like bungee trim. My experience with bungee trim hasn't been perfect. That's what drove me to the model airplane servo solution. First it was just aileron trim, but as long as I had to make the controller, I might as well add rudder trim ..... and now I'm thinking of a controllable camera mount ..... and the build time gets longer and longer.
Linn ..... wiring .... not flying .... and terribly jealous of those that are!!!!
On 11/5/2012 9:29 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)
Lynn,
Some of this post just gets too out of whack.
First, an EFIS isn't that hard to wire. I think most would be
almost easier than dealing with some of the things on a 6-pack,
like vacuum pumps and lines and additional static/pitot lines.
The world isn't a 6-pack panel world anymore, so no use
lamenting it...the new stuff CAN be smaller, lighter, and
simpler.
But where you really go off into the weeds is with the last
paragraph. You start talking about how much of a pain
in the rear it was to put in trim, and then went on to describe
building microcontrollers and how much time that all adds
to the build. Well, I'm here to tell you that for
MOST people, it's not going to be that tough. First,
you can install Geoff's system quickly (I have no first
hand experience), from the sounds of it. Second, for people
like me who'd prefer an electronic, adjustable tab of
some type, you can use standard ray allen components and
get the job done very quick. I added rudder trim in one
evening, to a flying plane. No need to build special
controllers, and certainly it wouldn't even add a week
to a person's build time. So you make it sound much more
painful than it is.
But where you really lose it is this line:
"At this stage in the build my recommendations would be to build
the airplane stock and deal with the idiosyncrasies when it's
flying."
You know, there's nothing wrong with going stock, but,
for a NON-FLYING builder to make statements like that,
you should definitely DEFINITELY qualify that statement
clearly to the list....you're someone who HAS NOT THE EXPERIENCE
of flying such a creation for any sizeable amount of time,
yet you're saying they'd be better off dealing with
the idiosyncrasies later? I mean, it's fine to have
an opinion and comment, but definitely qualify that
statement with "I'm not a flying builder", so at least
people know to take the opinion with a grain of salt.
Once you've flown it for a while, many of these
opinions will become much more valuable.
My personal feelings on trim:
Aileron trim - You need it, really. Yes, I buy into the KISS
principle, but if you're going to hand fly at all, you'll
find Aileron trim a necessity in the 10...much more so
than any other plane I'd flown in the past.
Elevator trim - Not much to say here except I think
everyone should have speed control and I personally
believe Bob's Safety-Trim or similar featured device
should be mandatory install.
Rudder trim - This one could well be optional, but I'm
much happier in my 615 hours AFTER installing rudder
trim than I was in my 288 hours BEFORE installing it.
No, I don't adjust it every flight. Maybe not even
every 2nd flight. But, if you vary flight loads and
airspeeds in cruise and you cruise >500 miles a day,
it's likely to be something that people will like.
Definitely not a necessity, and a trim wedge or bendable
tab would do for many people I'm sure. But, it is
a nice option for people flying X/C. On a side note,
I'm planning to build an RV-14 hopefully starting
soon, and when I build that, I will possibly leave
rudder trim OFF of that one. Mainly because I don't
want to mess with a control surface too much that I
plan to use for some aerobatics. But, I may still
add it. If I were building a -10 again, I'd add
it for sure...likely do the same as I have, but may
consider a notched tab into the rudder. What I have
is about as simple as it gets if you have an
electric rudder trim though. If I were more of a
spring trim guy, I'd go for Geoff's system.
Tim
On 11/4/2012 7:36 AM, Linn wrote:
Hi Carlos.
To answer your question, AFAIK there isn't. Most of the rudder trims
I've seen are wedges affixed to the rudder trailing edge, followed by
hinges operated by Ray Allen trim motors .... followed by by a moveable
tab cut out of the rudder.
I'm afraid I'm walking down the path to mental illness. That KISS
thingy is starting to look pretty darn good.
I'm wiring. And wiring. And wiring. That 6-pack of steam gauges is
looking better all the time. I have dual, independent flat panels with
autopilot and engine monitor.
Because I had a stroke of lunacy I am installing the hinge-type trim on
the ailerons and rudder operated by model airplane servos. I had to
build up a mocrocontroller to create the pulse width to operate the
servos, write the code and add a power supply to drop the 12V to 5.
Why? Because I can. But it seems like anytime I deviate from the plans
it adds 6 months to the build time. Some longer. At this stage in the
build my recommendations would be to build the airplane stock and deal
with the idiosyncrasies when it's flying. Which I still hope to do someday.
Linn
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/05/12 |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:19 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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|
Coming up on one year and 95 hours.
I have and recommend electric roll trim. Fuel imbalance and passenger size do make a difference.
I have the std pitch trim with with rocker and pitch trim enable button to prevent runaways. I have no problem with controlling pitch trim from landing to cruise speeds. One learns that a quick tap at 155 kts is all it takes. I am the "speed controller". I adjust it before takeoff, after 115 kt climb established, at level off, at descent and again on landing. During the climb to cruise to descent phases my TT AP tells me when to adjust trim. Yes I know I could add another box or two but I like it simple, inexpensive, light and easy to troubleshoot.
My rudder trim consist of a technological break through and is patented. It is a small stick of balsa velcroed to the tunnel within easy reach once at cruise. I do not use my "rudder trim" on the 5-10 minute climb to altitude. My wife is most always with me and can hold right rudder if I need a break. On descent very little foot pressure needed either way. If a hard turn at cruise is needed then balsa is very easily broken. I am going to install an improved version consisting of phenolic friction blocks on both sides of tunnel with a 1 1/4" knob during condition insp. This will also be my gust lock instead of using the towbar with tabs, which works perfectly fine too by the way.
Yes simple works if you so desire and it gives me something to do.
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Wayne G. |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:46 am Post subject: Re: RV-10 Rudder trim |
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|
I have neither rudder nor aileron trim. I haven't noticed any issues hand flying, although in truth I use the autopilot for anything over an hour x/c.
I have a wedge on the rudder, and that is very close for most cruse flight. There is enough friction in the system to put in small corrections and have the friction hold it. I also have but do not usually use a large paper clip to slip over the tubing where the rudder cable exits into the tunnel, to increase the friction a bit, if needed to hold. (This is very easily overpowered).
I have no pitch button on the right stick, to prevent accidental activation. Flying from the right seat I use the Ray Allan rocker, mounted on the center of the panel.
The stick (left) switch runs the trim at full speed. For cruise I trim thru the Trio autopilot (this works regardless of whether or not the autopilot is engaged) using the autopilot knob. Trim speed is software programable, speed sensitive. I have it set up to run very slowly at cruise.
Autopilot and trim CB's are right in front of the pilot, pullable in case of runaway.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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