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Rotax 912 Preheating

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dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Hello Group.

 There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and  Pieces for Canada about preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger  preheating for Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to find  sugesstions for the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the temperature would have  to dip to require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.

 Regards,

 Damien Graham

 N48TK

    [quote][b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Damien:



Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either 0 C or 32 F.  It is NOT a function of Manufacture.  So unless ROTAX uses a different freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - - Start Pre-heating at the freezing point.  

 Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS.  Many a knob and gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop.  Personally - I begin to function slower as the temps get lower, so it is just as important to me to be Pre-Heated.

 



Barry



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Damien <dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com (dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       Hello Group.

 There is an article in this month's EAA Bits and  Pieces for Canada about preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger  preheating for Continentals and Lycomings. I have not been able to find  sugesstions for the Rotax 912. Does anyone know what the temperature would have  to dip to require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.

 Regards,

 Damien Graham

 N48TK

     	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Please explain what the freezing point       of water has to do with when to preheat an engine that is cooled       with a combination of antifreeze and air.

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 11/14/2012 09:58 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

     

     [quote]Damien:       

       

       Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either         0 C or 32 F.  It is NOT a function of Manufacture.  So unless         ROTAX uses a different freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - -         Start Pre-heating at the freezing point.  

       Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS.  Many         a knob and gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop.          Personally - I begin to function slower as the temps get lower,         so it is just as important to me to be Pre-Heated.

       

       

       Barry

         

         On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM,           Damien <dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com (dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com)>           wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		                              Hello Group.

               There is an article in this                   month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada about                   preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger                   preheating for Continentals and Lycomings. I have not                   been able to find sugesstions for the Rotax 912. Does                   anyone know what the temperature would have to dip to                   require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.

               Regards,

               Damien Graham

               N48TK

                	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com



	
             

           

	
     [b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Hi Raymond:



The theory is this:

There is water in the oil.

 There is water condensed on the metal parts of the engine.

When the water freezes it creates ice crystals - 

Some of these ice crystals are between parts such as connecting rods and journals of the crank shaft.

 When water freezes it expands - This puts uneven pressure on the connected parts. Journals, guides and bearings.  Squeezing out the oil.

If there is Water in those areas there is NO oil in those areas - So there is the possibility of metal to metal ware.

 This is the THEORY - It has some merit.  But, Adam Ant has not gotten inside the engine and taken pictures so I don't know 1,000%.

I do KNOW this:  A pre-heated engine starts easier than a non-pre-heated engine.

 A plane that I fly, an RV6, won't even think of starting at temps near freezing.  

Which brings up a second theory:  

 Most aircraft engines have very sloppy tolerances between mating parts.  If you have a better than average engine with close tolerances and there are dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and Aluminum) each metal has a different coefficient of expansion.  Aluminum expands more than steel.  You could put higher pressures and uneven pressure on mating parts.

 



Chose which ever theory you like - But, Pre-Heat.  Your engine will like you for it.  And may even last longer.



 

Barry

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:29 PM, rayj <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net (raymondj(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]                   Please explain what the freezing point       of water has to do with when to preheat an engine that is cooled       with a combination of antifreeze and air.

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 11/14/2012 09:58 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

     



      	  Quote: 	
		  Damien:       

       

       Pre-heating is a function of FREEZING which starts at either         0 C or 32 F.  It is NOT a function of Manufacture.  So unless         ROTAX uses a different freezing point - - - Kelvin maybe - - -         Start Pre-heating at the freezing point.  

       Pre-heating is also helpful when it comes to PLASTICS.  Many         a knob and gear have become loose or broken when the temps drop.          Personally - I begin to function slower as the temps get lower,         so it is just as important to me to be Pre-Heated.

       

       

       

Barry

         

         On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM,           Damien <dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com (dgraham7(at)twcny.rr.com)>           wrote:

           

 	  Quote: 	
		                              Hello Group.

               There is an article in this                   month's EAA Bits and Pieces for Canada about                   preheating engines. It mentions the temps that trigger                   preheating for Continentals and Lycomings. I have not                   been able to find sugesstions for the Rotax 912. Does                   anyone know what the temperature would have to dip to                   require a preheat for the Rotax 912 ? Thanks.

               Regards,

               Damien Graham

               N48TK

               

 	  Quote: 	
		  



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

tp://forums.matronics.com



	
             

           

	
     	
     

       	  Quote: 	
		  



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.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

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[b]

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Preheating

some are getting close   "dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and Aluminum) each metal has a differentï¿½coefficientï¿½ofï¿½expansion.ï¿½ Aluminumï¿½expandsï¿½more than steel. ï¿½You could put higher pressures and uneven pressure on mating parts. "

this is one of the main reasons but another is the oil... oil only.... there is no water in an engine that runs often. one that sits for long perionds   may... may have some condensation filter in..... but its the oil... shelll sport 4  is like cement   , or molassis , or thick glue.. at lower temps....it cant be pumped or moved through a cold engine... try it ... a lot of metal clankin goin on till the oil is warmed  and if you dont pre warm it ... its the friction from metal on metal that has to do the warmin up... . i have  100wat bulb on under the engine cowl from now till spring... and a bear blanket wrapped on the outside..inside an open hanger the temp remains about 50degF under the cowl. I live near detoit / toronto.  any time the temp is below35/37 degrees i change oil to 0w40amsoil syn. and use the light....at temps below 20deg F i also us a propane heater for 30min cuxz the light just gets behind.. i put the light at the back of the engine next to the crank and near the cooling pump lines. . 

no one has to pre heat... but everyone should..always...   these engines are a big investment... try leaving $16000.00 at the curb and see if it needs warming in at night... it will just leave   mysteriously... your engine is the same   .. it will just leave you... one little part at  a time... . all / any oil is the same to varying degrees... some of you are using 50w .. put that in the fridge over night and do a fluid test... it no longer is fluid...its rock hard.. 0wXX will be better but still is not great..

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Hi Ross:



There is always water in oil. Â Of course you reduce the Â quantity by flying often.Â 

An easy way to prove this to yourself is:

After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap. Â What do you see coming out? Â A white vapor. Â That white vapor is water. Â Now, take a smooth sheet of aluminum and hold it in the vapor. Â What do you see? Â Water condensing on the aluminum.

 



Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water -Â 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion

And as combustion gases get past the rings of the pistons they get into the crank area of the engine. Â OIL is in the crank area of the engine and the oil absorbs the water.

 



Another way of proving this is:

Do this out side.

Take a quart of NEW oil.

Put it in a glass jar.

Weigh the oil & jar - ACCURATELY - Gram Scale

Put another Larger Glass jar over the first.

 Set up the second glass jar so it is raised an inch with 5 blocks around the edge. It has to breathe - Just like an engine.

Let it sit OUTSIDE for a couple of months - [Requirement - You can't live in the Sara Desert]

 Weigh the oil & glass jar... Guess what?

It becameÂ heaver - WATER was absorbed into the oil. Â 

Another proof:

In the cold weather - Â DURING PRE-FLIGHT -Â Slowly and carefully pull out your dipstick (NO! Â Not that one!!!) - Look at the clear droplets that are on it. Â That is water. Â If it is on your dipstick, it is in your engine. Â If it is in your engine, it is in your oil.

 YES running an engine does reduce the amount of water but not totally. Â 

Hope this explains things.

Barry

 On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 8:14 AM, dashwood <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com (dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "dashwood" <dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com (dashwoodlock(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 some are getting close Â  "dissimilar metals in contact (Steel and Aluminum) each metal has a differentï¿½coefficientï¿½ofï¿½expansion.ï¿½ Aluminumï¿½expandsï¿½more than steel. ï¿½You could put higher pressures and uneven pressure on mating parts. "

  this is one of the main reasons but another is the oil... oil only.... there is no water in an engine that runs often. one that sits for long perionds Â  may... may have some condensation filter in..... but its the oil... shelll sport 4 Â is like cement Â  , or molassis , or thick glue.. at lower temps....it cant be pumped or moved through a cold engine... try it ... a lot of metal clankin goin on till the oil is warmed Â and if you dont pre warm it ... its the friction from metal on metal that has to do the warmin up... . i have Â 100wat bulb on under the engine cowl from now till spring... and a bear blanket wrapped on the outside... live near detoit / toronto. Â any time the temp is below35/37 degrees i change oil to 0w40amsoil syn. and use the light....at temps below 20deg F i also us a propane heater for 30min .

  no one has to pre heat... but everyone should..alway... Â  these engines are a big investment... try leaving $16000.00 at the curb and see if it needs warming in at night... it will just leave Â  mysteriously... your engine is the same Â  .. it will just leave you... one little part at Â a time... . all / any oil is the same to varying degrees... some are using 50w .. put that in the fridge over night and do a fluid test... it no longer is fluid...its rock hard.. 0wXX will be better but still is not great..

  

 --------

 Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 589tt

 It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

gcvisel

Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 11
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Barry,

 Â 

 Â Â  Do you preheat your car?Â  With it's big oil sump, you'll see lots more water there.Â  Somehow they last for many hundreds of thousands of miles without (most people) preheating.Â  (If you drive a diesel, this does not apply due to the higher compression ratios.Â  I preheated my old Benz, even with its glow plugs, to help it turn over easier.)Â  However,Â water inÂ engines all gets boiled off during operation, so the only water you will see is from what might have condensed inside since last shutdown.Â  I think you are worried too much about its effects.Â  If it was a serious issue, you sure would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine owner's manual.

  Â 

 Â Â  That said, I sure agree that it is sure a whole lot easier to start a pre-heated engine when it is really cold outside!

 

Gerry 



 On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:46 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Hi Ross:  



 There is always water in oil. Â Of course you reduce the Â quantity by flying often.Â 

 An easy way to prove this to yourself is:

 After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap. Â What do you see coming out? Â A white vapor. Â That white vapor is water. Â Now, take a smooth sheet of aluminum and hold it in the vapor. Â What do you see? Â Water condensing on the aluminum.

  



 Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water -Â 

[b]

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Gerry:



You did not spend much time thinking through your email.

1 - You did not ask where I live -- - I could live in Florida and never require pre-heating.  I could live in Alaska or North Dakota and have to pre-heat all winter long.

 Did you know that in extreme cold areas such as Alaska and North Dakota, if the plane is going to sit for a few days and then be flown, they remove the oil and bring it in a heated area.

2 - The size of the sump (not a sump but an oil pan) on a car is usually about 4 quarts.  The size on Lycoming and Continental is 8 quarts so the CAR is a much smaller capacity.  And capacity has nothing to do with it.  It is the environment and the number of hours flown.

 3 - Yes cars do go for hunderds of thousands of miles.  The average car is used EVERYDAY do you fly your plane everyday?  Not a good comparison.  

4 - DIESEL - Diesel fuel is why diesel engines are pre-heated NOT the compression ratio.  The GLOW PLUGS on a diesel are there to START COMBUSTION by pre-heating the inside of the cylinder.  They are kept glowing by the combustion process.  Diesel fuel GELS at low temperatures, a gelled fuel is extremely difficult to burn.  

 Want to learn something - Take a small 3" diameter pan.  Put in 1/8" of diesel fuel.  Throw a match into it.  What do you thinks will happen?  

NOTHING!  NOTHING - The match will go out.  That should show you how POOR diesel fuel is as an accelerant.

 My Diesel Rabbit had two pre heaters, one in the dipstick and one on the oil pan.  Both raised the temp under the hood enough to heat a Metal Cased Cartage Oil Filter enough to prevent gelling.

Oh, I live in NJ so I get both hot and cold temps.

 5 - You did not comprehend my last post.  WATER is also added to the oil through COMBUSTION.  ALL the water is NOT boiled off as you think.  Other wise why is there water vapor (Steam) coming out of your oil cap when opened.

 6 - Yes I am worried about effects of cold starts - After all I have $18,000 invested in my engine NOT counting the plane, or the people that fly in it.  

7 - Seven as in CRAPS you loose - " If it was a serious issue, you sure would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine owner's manual."  You are so willing blindly trust a manual as to not use common sense and consider who ever wrote and accepted the manual could have missed writing the section on COLD STARTS!  

 OR - OR you don't think BUSINESS comes before common sense?  Think on how many planes are built WITHOUT a cowl.  How do you preheat an engine without a cowl?  How many engines would NOT be sold if the plane was to be used in colder areas such as NJ  - IF - The manual said:  Pre-heat at 32 F and below.  

 



RTFQS

Barry

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Gerry Visel <gcvisel(at)gmail.com (gcvisel(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Barry,

  

    Do you preheat your car?  With it's big oil sump, you'll see lots more water there.  Somehow they last for many hundreds of thousands of miles without (most people) preheating.  (If you drive a diesel, this does not apply due to the higher compression ratios.  I preheated my old Benz, even with its glow plugs, to help it turn over easier.)  However, water in engines all gets boiled off during operation, so the only water you will see is from what might have condensed inside since last shutdown.  I think you are worried too much about its effects.  If it was a serious issue, you sure would have at least seen a procedure for how to do it in the engine owner's manual.

    

    That said, I sure agree that it is sure a whole lot easier to start a pre-heated engine when it is really cold outside!

 

Gerry 



 On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:46 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Ross:  



 There is always water in oil.  Of course you reduce the  quantity by flying often. 

 An easy way to prove this to yourself is:

 After a flight - Open up your Oil Cap.  What do you see coming out?  A white vapor.  That white vapor is water.  Now, take a smooth sheet of aluminum and hold it in the vapor.  What do you see?  Water condensing on the aluminum.

   



 Part of the normal COMBUSTION process is water - 





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[b]

gcvisel

Joined: 23 Oct 2012
Posts: 11
Location: United States

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Get a life, guy.Â  



 On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote] 



 You did not spend much time thinking through your email.

[b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Sorry folks, I didn't know.  I've       learned my lesson.

        	  Quote: 	
		  Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.



"And you know that I could have me a million more friends,

and all I'd have to lose is my point of view." - John Prine 	
       On 11/15/2012 12:34 PM, Gerry Visel wrote:

     

     [quote]Get a life,         guy.  

       

       On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM,         FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)>         wrote:

          	  Quote: 	
		             

           

           You did not spend much time thinking through your email.

         

	
     [b]

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Preheating

http://www.eaa.org/bitsandpieces/articles/2012-11_cold-weather-operations.asp

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html

another very good info page

http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/fxd_wing/cold_weather.htm

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Hi Ross & Gaggle:



While we al agree that pre-heating is helpful and benificial to our engines

after reading the EAA news letter "Bits & Pieces"  one has to note a few

things:

1 - It was written by by  Christine Wetherell <EAAbitsandpieces(at)eaa.org>,

Tanis Aircraft whom is a member of TANIS AIRCRAFT as she even states.  So

take what is offered with a grain of salt.

2 - She also makes the statement: "Often, preheating is the only way to get

a cold engine started. Cold fuel doesn't vaporize well,...".  That is NOT a

requirement.  In the racing world of  cars there is a device know as a COOL

CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it -

Into the can you put Dry Ice.  This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas

flowing to the engine.  What this does is raise the Specific Gravity

(density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the

combustion chamber.    This increases the Horse Power of the delivered fuel

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 912 Preheating

... In the racing world of cars there is a device know as a COOL 

CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it - 

Into the can you put Dry Ice. This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas 

flowing to the engine. What this does is raise the Specific Gravity 

(density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the 

combustion chamber....

When I was a drag racer nearly 50 years ago, I built my own cool cans, but the purpose for it was not as you stated. The real purpose was to eliminate vapor lock on hot summer days.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: Rotax 912 Preheating

Hey Thom:



You don't look that old.  

I did my racing in the late '60's and early '70's.

RACEWAY PARK, Englishtown, NJ

I never heard of the cool can being used for vapor lock.  All dependent on the location of the can and length of the fuel run that might be a concern.  But, in those days engine compartments were HUGE - So big I was able to climb right in under the hood - Legs and all.  Just to do a intake manifold or a valve job.  With all that room I can't see how heat could build that high, the can was also to be located as close to the Carb as possible.  So that would eliminate the possibility of vapor lock forming.   Vapor Lock - Possible but I don't think probable.  Well, at least I never experienced that problem.

 



 Here are links about how others used the cool can:

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/556895-whos-running-fuel-cool-can-cooler.html

  



http://blogs.superchevy.com/6274849/chevy-tech/keep-your-fuel-cool/

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/fuel-cool-can/10560/page1/

  



And the list goes on... No mention of Vapor Lock.

Back then I did not know about Density Altitude.  But today a friend that still races has an entire computer program that addresses Density Altitude and he changes his injectors for the particular conditions.

  He still believes in the COOL CAN.

Hey, it can't hoit!

Barry





On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

   

 .. In the racing world of cars there is a device know as a COOL

 CAN (look it up) it is a can that has coil of copper tubing inside it -

 Into the can you put Dry Ice. This is to LOWER the temperature of the gas

 flowing to the engine. What this does is raise the Specific Gravity

 (density) of the gas so MORE molecules of gas are delivered into the

 combustion chamber....

 

 

 When I was a drag racer nearly 50 years ago, I built my own cool cans, but the purpose for it was not as you stated. The real purpose was to eliminate vapor lock on hot summer days.

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 

 Diamond Katana DA20-A1

 Rotax 912 F3

 

 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.

 - Anonymous

 

 

 

 

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