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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hello All.

Rotax 914 engine, 

Aircraft in the SE England, temp about +3 first flight for about 6 weeks.

Fuel Mogas, Full Charged Battery, Engine Gurgled,Full Choke on Start.

I had difficulty in starting the engine, it took a long time before it fired and when it did i had ?? Detonation or Pre ignition  not sure which term would suit 

but the engine fire to soon and pushed the piston down before it passed over TDC causing sudden stopping ,or Prop flickering to too and throw, not good.

Is there a way to stop this happening , or control settings to use for cold starts., the plane has a tendency to do this.

I have a second problem, on the Right Mag i get a drop and it goes into rough running misfiring banging, From memory i can,t remember if its the top or bottom plugs on the Right Key Position, but all the plugs changed about 25 or 30 hours ago.

Another Question with regards to the Coils, 4 of them.

Are they all the same, ie, no timings involved can use any other one,

Its just a Coil ?? is that correct.

With regards to the Fuel Mogas, thinking of trying Mogas Super (UK) spec.



Regards 

Alan

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan

 If you go to www.conairsports.co.uk web site you can find link to download 

their good article on the Rotax plus installation & on line maintenance 

manuals for free. They also sell a soft start module to delay firing to 

retro fit to the Ducati ignition modules if required. If you have a recent 

engine according to the manual the soft start is built in to use but will 

requires connecting.

 I have no experience of running a Rotax as yet as plane build is not 

completed and the engine is not new, a previous owner suggested the soft 

start module would be a good idea.

   Be aware that each ignition module fires 2 plugs at the same time one on 

compression stroke before TDC & the other I presume on exhaust stroke on 

another cylinder.

Regards Clive

---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Clive.

How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts are well over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set you back about Â£3000.



I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through L&R before start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags temporally, but not sure how to do this,?



Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.

I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke of another cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??



I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same or means a double spark on the combustion stroke,?



Anybody.

Regards

Alan

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Y'all,



I can't speak to the costs involved in the various bits and pieces of the engine other than to say that they do seem pricey.



Clive, to start on one mag, you would have to install a single pole-single-throw switch (like this one, the S700-1-2 ON-OFF, from B & C http://www.bandc.biz/toggleswitch-singlepole.aspx ) to ground one of the ignition modules.  Each module has the equivalent of a "P-Lead" on a magneto system.  This wire, when grounded, shuts off the ignition module, just like grounding the P-Lead shuts off a magneto.  The switch would have to be installed in parallel with one of those wires to provide an alternate ground.  Not difficult, just a bit of a PITA.  See the Rotax 914 Installation Manual, Sections 19.4.3 & 19.4.4 for more information.



The reason for using a "wasted spark" system is simplicity.  In the flat 4 with 180º crank throws there are two pistons at TDC every 180º.  One on the compression stroke and one on the exhaust stroke.  At the same time there are two pistons at BDC.  That makes it easy to just fire the plugs every 180º in the two pistons going to TDC.  This is done with two tabs, 180º apart, on the flywheel.  Every half rev a tab goes through the trigger coil firing the two cylinders where the pistons are heading for TDC.  Super simple, easy to do & firing the plug on the exhaust stroke doesn't hurt anything.  To try and fire each cylinder individually, would add a lot of mechanical and electrical complexity that's just not needed.



I hope this helps.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Dec 13, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:






Hi Clive.

How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts are well over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set you back about Â£3000.



I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through L&R before start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags temporally, but not sure how to do this,?



Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.

I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke of another cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??



I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same or means a double spark on the combustion stroke,?



Anybody.

Regards

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390407#390407

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan:



If you have the standard (Usually a BENDIX) OFF - Right - Left - START switch it automatically grounds the RIGHT Mag during START.  That is because the Left Mag is an Impulse Mag. And you do not want to create a KICKBACK situation with the Right Mag. During STARTING the Right & Left mags have a timing difference.

 We are talking Lycoming & Continental type engines.

Barry



On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

  

 Hi Clive.

 How can a Ducati ignition system cost as much as the bike, these parts are well over priced at a guess i would say to replace the system would set you back about £3000.

 

 I have been told to try starting on one mag, but my switch goes through L&R before start, to do this i would nee to ground out one of the mags temporally, but not sure how to do this,?

 

 Yes i have been to the Web site you mentioned.

 I knew about the double spark, and as you guess its on the exhaust stroke of another cylinder, but don,t know the reason why this is done,??

 

 I also have heard of cars with double sparks not sure if this is the same or means a double spark on the combustion stroke,?

 

 Anybody.

 Regards

 Alan

 

 

[b]

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan



 Discription of ACS & Bendix switch connections as used on most light 

aircraft.



       Off  Connects (inner GRD) L R Terminals together   which are

used to earth both magnetos

                    Right Connects (inner GRD) L    Terminals together 

which are

used to earth the left magneto

                    Left Connects (inner  GRD) R  Terminals together 

which are

used to earth the right magneto

                    Both Connect no Terminals together

                    Start Connects BAT S Terminals together for starter

solenoid    and (inner GRD) (outer GRD) Terminals together which are used

to earth right magneto if required by fitting a link between R & (outer GRD) 

terminals

                            and BO LR L  Terminals together    not used in

the circuit I have

In the circuit that I have used for a continental 0-200 a negative feed is 

connected to BAT , the

starter solonid to S. the Magneto screens which are earthed at the magneto

end are connected to the (inner GRD) terminal the The Right magneto is

connected to R The left magneto is connected to L  And There is a link on

the switch connecting R To the adjacent (outer) GRD terminal. Why two 

seperate

terminals are marked GRD I have no idea.



As both magnetos have impulse couplings I since removed (outer GRD) R link.



By firing two plugs with each rotation of the engine one pickup coil can be 

used to fire two cylinders & removes the need for a distributor.

hope this helps

Clive

---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hello All.

Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out,  the coils fire  two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual ignition system but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition system, so the distributor is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as two pistons are coming up there barrels one on compression and one one exhaust both plugs spark, then this same happens again as the other two come up there barrels in turn.

So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur later ,

preferably after TDC.



Is that roughly correct



Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Again.

Would warming the engine for 15 minutes with a couple of Hair driers blowing hot air into the cowling help.??

Alan

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan,



You got it!  And Super or Super Plus Mogas.  From the Rotax 914 Operators Manual:

[img]cid:E0E3238A-DF17-46D6-885C-45BC17E0068D[/img]

Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Dec 13, 2012, at 5:07 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hello All.

Its getting a bit complicated for me, but as far as i can make out,  the coils fire  two plugs at a time, every 180% of the fly wheel, its a dual ignition system but to keep it simple look at it as a single ignition system, so the distributor is disposed of due to the dual sparks, So as two pistons are coming up there barrels one on compression and one one exhaust both plugs spark, then this same happens again as the other two come up there barrels in turn.

So to stop kick back , spin the engine faster or make the spark occur later ,

preferably after TDC.



Is that roughly correct



Alan

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peter.rees01(at)tiscali.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

I think that some of the europa owners who live in properly cold 

countries do tricks like this (or a heat pad on a timer).



P



----Original Message----

From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

Date: 13/12/2012 23:23 

To: <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough




<alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>



Hi Again.



Would warming the engine for 15 minutes with a couple of Hair driers 

blowing hot air into the cowling help.??



Alan



Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390417#390417

Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:54 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan

               That appears to be correct the module from Conair will 

provide the delay you require at a price on one ignition module.  & you will 

need to start on this one only.            If you have the ignition switch I 

described you can achieve this by fitting the link  R to outer GRD terminal 

R will be the non delayed ignition & you will start on the left.  I noticed 

an ERROR in my description the feed to BAT terminal should read positive as 

negative is earth .

         If you have the later Rotax modules you just need to provide a feed 

from the start switch wires 26 on schematic in manual. to provide the delay 

on both.

Pre heating the engine in cold weather is a good idea if you can achieve 

this.

All the best Clive

---

s.clive.richards(at)homec
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:08 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Alan

                 Roger  has a good point about fuel. Also if you are using garage fuel it will  not keep very long so use immediately, I suggest you use 91UL if you can get it  as this is Avgas without the lead and will keep much longer.

  

  

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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi All.

Phoned Con Air today the Soft Start Module with the 4 pin connectors is for early engines around the year 2000 like mine, it cost about Â£140 but you have to be wired in the cockpit to be able to start on one mag.



You can also purchase a Rotax kit that consists of 2 modules it  retards both ignitions and requires  NO cockpit wiring of mags switches, but this kits about Â£550 probably plus Vat ??  but Will only work with the later 6 pin connections on the later engines.



For me, Change Fuel to Super Plus,  if no good, then wire for 1 mag start,.

if no good, fit Soft  Start Module. or wait till summer before i fly.



As you can see i would rather berry my head in the sand and hope it would go away.



My last job was replacing the battery in the GPS and also wiring the main battery for external charging. I have just looked at the wheel struts why is there no little pad to put a jack under.?

 



Alan

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Alan,



Good plan.



I need to install some sort of external charging capability too.  And I'm with you on the jack pad issue!



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Dec 14, 2012, at 6:35 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:






Hi All.

Phoned Con Air today the Soft Start Module with the 4 pin connectors is for early engines around the year 2000 like mine, it cost about Â£140 but you have to be wired in the cockpit to be able to start on one mag.



You can also purchase a Rotax kit that consists of 2 modules it  retards both ignitions and requires  NO cockpit wiring of mags switches, but this kits about Â£550 probably plus Vat ??  but Will only work with the later 6 pin connections on the later engines.



For me, Change Fuel to Super Plus,  if no good, then wire for 1 mag start,.

if no good, fit Soft  Start Module. or wait till summer before i fly.



As you can see i would rather berry my head in the sand and hope it would go away.



My last job was replacing the battery in the GPS and also wiring the main battery for external charging. I have just looked at the wheel struts why is there no little pad to put a jack under.?

Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Bob.

In the UK i saw in a motor cycle shop a complete charging unit made by Suzuki, eye washer connectors for the battery and a the other end of the wire a flat plastic plate about 1.1/2"x 1" with a rubber plug covering the connector, guard to cover the terminals.

The plate was moulded with a plastic retaining clip on the back, a small rectangle hole would need to be cut for it, and it would self fix into it, either inside the plane or on the skin outside, Suzuki have there own shaped plugs so yo would need to buy the whole lot including the maintenance charger.

It looked a neat job.

I leave my charging lead dangling out of the small air vent at the front side of the cockpit. .I,m just going to plug in and blow the tyers up, as one is a bit low.

The Suzuki,s Plate would be neater.

How the hell do i change a tyre if i get a flat away from base.? 



Alan

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Alan,



I need to put something like that charging plug together for my battery.  I'll contact the folks who make my charger to see if they have or can come up with such.



The way I remove/replace a tire is with a suitably sized saw horse with a well padded top.  I get under the wing and lift with my legs, my back supporting the wing.  Then I pull the saw horse (I don't know what you Brits call it, but I'll provide a picture if you need) under the wing and let the wing down on the padding.  If all is properly sized, the sawhorse will support the wing with the wheel just off the ground.  It's a heck of a lot easier and better if you have someone else to help, but if this old fart can accomplish it alone almost anyone who doesn't have a bad back should be able to do it.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Dec 14, 2012, at 8:09 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:






Hi Bob.

In the UK i saw in a motor cycle shop a complete charging unit made by Suzuki, eye washer connectors for the battery and a the other end of the wire a flat plastic plate about 1.1/2"x 1" with a rubber plug covering the connector, guard to cover the terminals.

The plate was moulded with a plastic retaining clip on the back, a small rectangle hole would need to be cut for it, and it would self fix into it, either inside the plane or on the skin outside, Suzuki have there own shaped plugs so yo would need to buy the whole lot including the maintenance charger.

It looked a neat job.

I leave my charging lead dangling out of the small air vent at the front side of the cockpit. .I,m just going to plug in and blow the tyers up, as one is a bit low.

The Suzuki,s Plate would be neater.

How the hell do i change a tyre if i get a flat away from base.? 



Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Hi Bob

"Don,t know what the Brits call it", There,s only me, and i call it a saw horse.

I can even make one. Advanced C&Gs in Carpentry and Joinery many years ago.

Going back to Fuel, A friend mail me with this. 

In the UK Super-Plus unleaded is generally refined to meet a standard BS 7800, not EN228. The only Mogas fuel currently approved by CAA and LAA is that refined to EN228, and without ethanol. The reason that the Super-Plus unleaded fuels are not approved is that the vapour pressure of the blend is very high compared with EN228 Mogas or Avgas. This could lead to an increased risk of vapour locking in flight.

I think there is no ethanol in Super Plus , but don,t know much about vapour locking, would have thought only in summer temps, but does anybody use Super Plus fuel, or can give some input on this subject as the fuel is approved by Rotax.



Alan

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple and lightweight for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends inboard from the axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and might require a different connection, but the principle is the same.



A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage. The over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video I made that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep it from falling if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc06w&index=8



or



http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g



The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke in time, so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for durability.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:55 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Very Nice Thom....



Sweet & Simple

Barry



On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

  

 Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple and lightweight for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends inboard from the axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and might require a different connection, but the principle is the same.

  

 A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage. The over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video I made that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep it from falling if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc06w&index=8

 

 or

 

 http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g

 

 The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke in time, so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for durability.

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 no engine

 FOR SALE

 

 Diamond Katana DA20-A1

 Rotax 912 F3

 

 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.

 - Anonymous

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390475#390475

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

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 [b]

dgraham7(at)TWCNY.RR.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: Rotax 914 Right Mag rough

Thom that is a great idea. I am going to make one myself.

Regards,

Damien



Sent from my iPad



On Dec 15, 2012, at 9:55 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Very Nice Thom....



Sweet & Simple

Barry



On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

  

 Regarding portable jack for tire(tyre) changing, I built something simple and lightweight for my Kolb Slingshot which has an axle that extends inboard from the axle fitting. Your airplane may have a different setup and might require a different connection, but the principle is the same.

  

 A block with an axle and two wheels, plus a removable handle for leverage. The over-center characteristic is the key. Note in the short YouTube video I made that I put the wedge (cut from the top, under the raised end to keep it from falling if the airplane is accidentally pushed when on the jack.

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ars22PxPjE&list=UUXuIm2BjpicnSovZDhKc06w&index=8

 

 or

 

 http://tinyurl.com/bmkps9g

 

 The prototype shown in this video was made of simple pine board. It broke in time, so it should be made of hardwood or other stronger material for durability.

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 no engine

 FOR SALE

 

 Diamond Katana DA20-A1

 Rotax 912 F3

 

 Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.

 - Anonymous

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=390475#390475

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

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