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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Alan:
It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the Starter Motor.
The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the output of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask you and the gaggle a couple of questions:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
Barry
On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>
Hello ALL
First off all its a Rotax 914 ignition system.
The" Mag Key Switch" is OFF>L>R>Both>Start.
There are 4 Mag Coils each having two HT leads going to the plugs.
The 4 Mag Coil Units are mounted all together on a bracket attached to the engine.
As far as i can make out, the:
TOP 2 Mag Coil Units go to the TOP Plugs.
BOTTOM 2 Mag Coil Units go to the BOTTOM Plugs.
Again as far as i can make out from the"Cockpit Mag Switch", Key at (L) goes to the TOP Coils and TOP Plugs and with the Key at (R) goes to the BOTTOM Coils,and BOTTOM Plugs.
Are you keeping up with this ! or am i confusing myself.
With the Key in position (L) which Two Coils Units are Working, ie Live and (sparking) going to which plugs.?
Which Mag Drop am i Checking.?
I would say i am Checking the Left Mag which is the Top Coils Units going to the Top plugs, and the Mag Drop i see is due to the Right Mag being off line.
But Hay,With the key at (L) Am i Grounding out the (Left) mag, so its the other one,??which is live ? ie the (Right) mag that is working ??and i am seeing how good it is.
Confusing , Sometimes things are not what they seem to be.
So which is it you Petrol Heads.
Requards.
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Hello Barry.
Many thanks, So far so good all makes sense.
With regards to:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
I have no idea :
But the 914 engine is year 2000, and has 4 pin connectors.
I replaced a coil some time ago, but can,t remember how i traced the faulty one, except i swapped them around, go really fed up and decided if i every have to do this job again i will know where every lead goes.
So on every HT cable i placed coloured cable tie,s .
(Red being Port side, ie Left and Green Being Starboard side, ie Right. ie (as in Nav lights)
So all my Left mag HT leads are Red, going to the top set of coils marked with Red stickers.
And all my Right mag HT leads are Green,going to the Bottom set of coils which you,v guessed it has Green stickers on them.
And on my Rotary Mag Switch in the cockpit i have a little sticker L >Red
and R>Green .
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =Port which is Red markers and its the 2 Red Coils with its 4 Red Leads which are the Top Plugs that i am checking.
And you have confirmed position L = live.
Alan
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Barry,
You are absolutely correct for a magneto based system. Rotax does not use magnetos. Rotax uses a CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) system, a type of electronic ignition that does not require a separate power source. Like a mag, the ignition module is grounded to prevent it from firing. Your explanation is, again, correct for the Rotax if you substitute "ignition module" for "MAG."
Where it falls apart is when you went to "Impulse Coupler." Because it's not a mag, there are no impulse couplers. The Rotax CDI system is triggered by a pair of tabs on the flywheel. Below ~800 RPM the system triggers on the trailing edge of the tab (4ºBTDC or 3ºATDC depending on the age of the system). Once the engine starts, >800 RPM, the system triggers on the leading edge of the tab.
Most Rotax folks use the term "MAG" for simplicity sake, because that's what most folks are familiar with.
Kind of like the "Choke" which isn't really a choke, it's a separate little carb which is activated to provide a richer mixture on startup. Same function as the choke on a "normal" engine, just a different physical implementation.
Alan,
The only sure way to determine which module is grounded when your key is in any specific position is by making a continuity check from the back of the key to the grounding lead on each ignition module. Or, I guess you could put the key in a position and see which of your grounding leads has continuity to ground, that is, which is grounded. Your older system uses 4 modules, my system is just enough newer (2002) to use only two modules, labeled A & B. So, I guess I should really have my two grounding switches labeled A & B rather than L & R. And on the 914. one module fires the upper and the other module the lower plugs. On the 912 & 912S, a module fires the upper on one side and lower on the other.
The Rotax 9xx engines aren't your daddy's Lycoming/Continental. Twin carbs, CDI, gearbox and most happy when turning over 5000 RPM while burning 4 - 5 gph.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:34 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alan:
It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the Starter Motor.
The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the output of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask you and the gaggle a couple of questions:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
Barry
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Hi Barry ,Bob.
Barry i like your description, Ground and live, and Bob i follow what you are saying as in my younger days the old Cessna 150 had a impulse mag, and that was the left one, and as far as i can remember with the key at start it started on the left impulse mag only.
You mention A&B modules, My system Has A&B ignition from the "two flat electronic ignition modules" located laying over the the 4 coil units.
To find the Continuity grounding ete, to check which is left and right.
I think you said on the 914 ignition "A" fires the Top Plugs, so provided the person that built my Europa connected the mag wire the correct way round
ie Ignition A to the Left key position i think i have it colour labeled up correct
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =(Port which is my Red marked system) electronic ignition module "A" plus the 2 Upper Red marked Coils, plus the 4 Red marked HT Leads which are going to the Top Plugs.
To check this out i need to continuity ground the mags , I will have to do it the incorrect way and take a chance,
Start the engine with all the Top leads off, and turn the key to the (L)
if it stops it means L = top plugs, confirming all is correct as i have marked.
Which is what i would be hoping and think this will be the case.
Alan
Continued :: Part 2
I want a separate starter press button switch.
So the plan is to find on the back of my rotary ignition switch the + power live lead and its return lead to the starter solenoid.
Extend these two wires so they reach the new push to start switch which will be mounted about 10" away fro the mag switch.
Leave all the mag leads intact on the rotary switch , so now i can still key select individual mags,
The end goal will be to fitt the Soft start module.
This is a photo of the Rotax Switch
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/conair-soft-start-module-ssm-735-p.asp
It has 3 terminals, ??
Alan
.
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Alan,
Do not operate the engine with any spark plug wires removed. Never pull a spark plug wire when the engine is running. Don't turn over the engine with a spark plug wire removed to look for a spark. You will destroy the module to which the plug is connected. That spark energy has to go somewhere and if you don't put it in a plug it is dumped in the module and can fry the module. Very expensive test method to ensure you kill a module.
Locate the proper grounding lead on each module and check for continuity to the switch. Or, put the switch on, say, Left, this would ground the "Right" mag (ignition module) then see which module has the grounding lead continuity to ground. If it is wired as per the installation guide, only one will show continuity to ground. That will tell you which module (A or B) is wired to left or right. Then you can disconnect the battery ground wire, put the switch in start and see if either ignition module is grounded for a single module start. If you find one is grounded for start, you can put the soft start module on the other module and go straight with your ignition switch setup. If it is not grounding either module, then you will have to install a separate grounding switch for one module and put the soft start on the other module.
Part 2:
Not a bad idea. But you might consider going the full route and dump the rotary ignition switch all together and go with separate grounding switches for each module and a separate push button or spring loaded toggle starter switch. With the push button starter switch, this is my set up.
There are even ways you can do this with two toggle switches, rather than three. One switch is a simple SPST to ground one ignition. The other is a DPTT (Double Pole Triple Throw) switch with positions: closed (grounding a module), open (ungrounding), closed (voltage to starter solenoid) which is spring loaded to the center. { http://www.bandc.biz/toggleswitch-doublepole.aspx S700-2-5 (ON)-OFF-ON }. I think Bob Nuckolls has a couple Z diagrams which show the use of this switch. If not, I can show you how to wire it and can provide pictures and confirmation tests as to switch positions and continuities.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:27 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:
Hi Barry ,Bob.
Barry i like your description, Ground and live, and Bob i follow what you are saying as in my younger days the old Cessna 150 had a impulse mag, and that was the left one, and as far as i can remember with the key at start it started on the left impulse mag only.
You mention A&B modules, My system Has A&B ignition from the "two flat electronic ignition modules" located laying over the the 4 coil units.
To find the Continuity grounding ete, to check which is left and right.
I think you said on the 914 ignition "A" fires the Top Plugs, so provided the person that built my Europa connected the mag wire the correct way round
ie Ignition A to the Left key position i think i have it colour labeled up correct
So when i do my mag check i say to myself.
L =(Port which is my Red marked system) electronic ignition module "A" plus the 2 Upper Red marked Coils, plus the 4 Red marked HT Leads which are going to the Top Plugs.
To check this out i need to continuity ground the mags , I will have to do it the incorrect way and take a chance,
Start the engine with all the Top leads off, and turn the key to the (L)
if it stops it means L = top plugs, confirming all is correct as i have marked.
Which is what i would be hoping and think this will be the case.
Alan
Continued :: Part 2
I want a separate starter press button switch.
So the plan is to find on the back of my rotary ignition switch the + power live lead and its return lead to the starter solenoid.
Extend these two wires so they reach the new push to start switch which will be mounted about 10" away fro the mag switch.
Leave all the mag leads intact on the rotary switch , so now i can still key select individual mags,
The end goal will be to fitt the Soft start module.
This is a photo of the Rotax Switch
http://www.ekmpowershop2.com/ekmps/shops/conairsports/conair-soft-start-module-ssm-735-p.asp
It has 3 terminals, ??
Alan
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Alan Carter
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Hi Bob.
OK will not try it. will re read all.
Alan
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Robert:
THANK YOU for explaining the system.
AND it is a CDI System... That is way better than a MAG.
Thanks Robert,
Barry
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:
[quote]Barry,
You are absolutely correct for a magneto based system. Rotax does not use magnetos. Rotax uses a CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) system, a type of electronic ignition that does not require a separate power source. Like a mag, the ignition module is grounded to prevent it from firing. Your explanation is, again, correct for the Rotax if you substitute "ignition module" for "MAG."
Where it falls apart is when you went to "Impulse Coupler." Because it's not a mag, there are no impulse couplers. The Rotax CDI system is triggered by a pair of tabs on the flywheel. Below ~800 RPM the system triggers on the trailing edge of the tab (4ºBTDC or 3ºATDC depending on the age of the system). Once the engine starts, >800 RPM, the system triggers on the leading edge of the tab.
Most Rotax folks use the term "MAG" for simplicity sake, because that's what most folks are familiar with.
Kind of like the "Choke" which isn't really a choke, it's a separate little carb which is activated to provide a richer mixture on startup. Same function as the choke on a "normal" engine, just a different physical implementation.
Alan,
The only sure way to determine which module is grounded when your key is in any specific position is by making a continuity check from the back of the key to the grounding lead on each ignition module. Or, I guess you could put the key in a position and see which of your grounding leads has continuity to ground, that is, which is grounded. Your older system uses 4 modules, my system is just enough newer (2002) to use only two modules, labeled A & B. So, I guess I should really have my two grounding switches labeled A & B rather than L & R. And on the 914. one module fires the upper and the other module the lower plugs. On the 912 & 912S, a module fires the upper on one side and lower on the other.
The Rotax 9xx engines aren't your daddy's Lycoming/Continental. Twin carbs, CDI, gearbox and most happy when turning over 5000 RPM while burning 4 - 5 gph.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: [url=tel:817-992-1117]817-992-1117[/url]
rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:34 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alan:
It is very simple. Don't overload yourself with too much info.
OFF = BOTH MAGs are Grounded.
L = Left = Left MAG is HOT -and Right MAG is Grounded.
R = Right = Right MAG is HOT - and Left MAG is Grounded.
BOTH = BOTH MAGS are HOT. NO MAGs are Grounded.
START = START the engine by Grounding the Right MAG and Turning ON the Starter Motor.
The rule to remember is: MAGs are ALWAYS HOT.
The only way of removing a MAG from the system is to GROUND out the output of the MAG... To electrical Ground.
NOW, of course I have to confuse things here just a bit. I have to ask you and the gaggle a couple of questions:
Does Rotax use an IMPULSE Coupler on one MAG? Or...
Does Rotax use TWO IMPULSE Copuler's - One on each MAG?
I'll explain my question later.
Barry
[b]
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s.clive.richards(at)homec
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: OFF>L>R>Both>Start |
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Alan
I suspect you will find your igintion switch is marked as
my discription so BAT terminal is positive from a fuse or circuit breaker &
S goes to starter solenoid.
The Push button you show will have a common terminal with one of the other
terminals will be open to this & the other closed.
If your ignition switch is as I described you can as I previously said link
the outer ground terminal GRD to R terminal you will then start on the
module connected to the L terminal.
(It is the inner GRD terminal which is the one actualy connected to
ground)
As others have stated to check make sure engine cannot start or turn on
starter remove plug on lead from the switch at an ignition module check with
a multimeter on continuity (Ohms) range that the wire from the switch is
connected to ground (engine block) in off position then check in left right
both & start positions a modual is live when not connected to ground you
can mark left or right as appropriate check which coil pack this moudule is
pluged into to see which plugs it fires. Refit plug after testing.
Clive
---
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